The Letterville BullBoard: Stencil creating

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Posted by Steven P. Wood (Member # 2487) on :

I would appreciate anyones input in reference to using vinyl cutters. We are a woodworking company (hobbiests) and we are attempting to engrave glass for coffee and end tables, cabinet doors, etc. We need a vinyl cutter to cut stencils for this engraving or sandblasting process. We have no need for a unit which will "print" because we are not making signs, banners, stickers,etc. We are only interested in creating stencils.
Also we are in need of a software program that will convert scanned images into the "vector file" format needed for the cutting unit. We already have over 100 pages of scroll saw patterns which are exclusively North American wildlife patterns. Unless we can locate a program with these patterns and without literally 1000's of unnecessary cliparts, we would like to use the patterns we already have. We are only seeking a "conversion" software and not a complete signmaking software loaded with unnecessary cliparts.

Steven P. Wood

Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :

I have both Summa and Gerber plotters, both great at cutting stencil, most plotters are, I would suggest a visit to a sign supplier, and see what is available as trade-in as a start. I have seen a stand alone program called Vectography 1.1 I think, I have no idea what it is like but you might want to look at that.

otherwise there are programs like Adobe Illustrator, Corel Draw, Freehand that are vector programs.

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Steve,

We were at a sign show recently in Chicagoland and got to view the ArtCam software, which makes 3D routing possible. And we are talking 3D carving on plastics 1/8 inch thick to 2 inch sign foam and beyond.

You might do well to check into what their software does, because its the next perk in sign making.

Even if you don't have a computerized router, you could prepare the artwork, then team up with a person who also has ArtCam and a router and network together.

Just FYI

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :

Adobe streamline will vectorize scans. It is probably between $100 & $200 software. You could probably get by with a used 10 year old plotter you might find for as little as $500.

In fact some guy is selling 3 plotters on this board in classifieds.

You will need some program to send the vectorized files to the plotter. The least expensive seem to be Co-cut or Magi-sign to work in conjunction with Corel Draw or Adobe Illustrator. Search this forum for lots of recent info on both of these.

You could do your own scanning & vectorizing for the low price of a little software, then find a local shop to cut your stencils. You could arrange to do the manual work of weeding & taping the cut vinyl to keep your costs low & save hundreds or thousands in equip. costs, & learning curves.

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

As far as plotters go.

I highly recommend an older Gerberr 4B or 750. the 4B is 15 inches wide and the 750 is 30" wide. Both will cut sandblastmask mask while your sleeping and without even a hiccup.

A Sprocket fed plotter like the 2 I mentioned would serve you best as far as accuracy and reliability. Speed would not be a factor.

The older Gerbers also don't need a super clean environment like newer plotters. They were made to work in sign shops not offices with carpet and elevator music.

My opinion on software is also to go with Gerber because thier typestyles are perfect at any height and other software's " true type" fonts are not.

I can speek from experience that Gerber software vectorizes excellent.

But their software is not bargain basement priced.
Corel is a desktop publishing software much like Adobe illustrator and will require 3rd party software to function like a sign program. Neither one has cutting ability right out of the box.

Like mentioned above Jack Jordan is advertising some used sprocket fed plotters and computers in the classified section.

Good luck.

Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :

To my knowledge, glass can be etched/blasted with 3 mil vinyl stencils. Sandblast mask is more demanding on a plotter, although all plotters should be able to handle it anyway. Also large fonts seem to not be an issue with your stated needs. Unless you want to be able to start a sign company later, save your money and get low-end equip. & software.

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

Corel is a desktop publishing software much like Adobe illustrator and will require 3rd party software to function like a sign program. Neither one has cutting ability right out of the box.
My opinion on software is also to go with Gerber because thier typestyles are perfect at any height and other software's " true type" fonts are not.

1st off.... these are 2 untrue statements. i have been cutting from corel directly to ROLAND PNC-1000 plotter since ive had corel version 3. as many more here on the board can atest too.....as for true type fonts not cutting as perfect as gerber....let me see a helvetica font in corel will cut as well a geber helvetica font(agree some TT fonts are garbage,) but to blame corel for a font foundrys screw up is like blaming the terrorists for a hurricane.
as for what you need is a plotter to cut sandblast mask...yes the gerbers are great for this....also so are the roland pro series or the older PNC-1100, PNC-960 AND I THINK THE PNC-950 all of these plotters have 300 gram downforce....machines with 200 gram is not enough. as for a vector program...what else but corel.....as for scanning softwear ADOBE STREAMLINE 4.0 get these and i think youll do the job you want....now lets talk about a computer...PC I PRESUME?

Posted by Philippe JACQUES (Member # 664) on :

i have many customers producing glass artwork in my listing. Some are isolated guys, some are industrial members, i.e. some subsidiaries of the French group Saint-Gobain, which is one of the biggest in the glass industry in Europa.

If your patterns are so complex those I've seen there, with many paths and shades, I recommand you to care about the strength of the software you will buy. This kind of artwork supposes the managements of thousand of vectors, what is a lot to compare with the few vectors used in the common sign industry. This is not a question of "basic or full version" of a software. It's related to its ability to manage with enough velocity the modification of some parts of a complex artwork while thousand of nodes are present in the same file.

Some common sign software are just not able to support a so huge of paths in terms of ratio memory/velocity ! At the opposite, it is a common job for a graphic software like Adobe Illustrator.

By the way, I recommand you the combo "Adobe Illustrator-Streamline-MagiSign" on a Mac. Sure, it is my solution, and you could consider this as an add. But this one is clearly strong enough to what you have to produce.

E-mail me for more details or see Summa Inc (http://www.summadirect.com) for distribution of MagiSign is USA.

Posted by bronzeo (Member # 1408) on :

I have done about as much glass etching as anyone, in about every means. Over a million large wildlife graphics on gun cabinets for WalMart, KMart, JCP, Sears etc. plus smaller custom things and specialty advertising blanks. The quality that you are going to expect, you will find too work intensive using a mask cutting device, though it will work. If you have not used the photo resist method with glue. I would try that. Much more detail for less time consumed. Vectorizing scanned images is a simple/complex as tracing them with a trace program. Their is really no other method of magic. Most are not very good or require many hours of rework on complex artworks. I use sandblast stencils only for graphic line artwork and type copys, as they will save you a lot of time and work there. You will find the photo resist material and vinyl costs about equal in cost, but the time of just weeding a wildlife vinyl for blasting, could be triple, and will give you more problems. I would suggest that you spend a little time with an experienced graphic artist doing a complicated vectorization and vinyl man before investing in this method. I think you will be suprised of what you see. I hope my 2 cents will help you make the correct decision. Bronzeo

below is an example of one of the glasses I designs and screenprinted for this company. The only cost effective way to produce them. Wholesaling for less than 2.00. I have screenprinted it in acid and printed it in enamel. The enamel was a much better seller.

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: bronzeo ]

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Joe,

So tell me that Corel and Adobe Illustrator are NOTDesktop publishing software programs.

That is true! and a fact.

Also neither offer cutting abilities at all from the main program, If they do Joe, please explain which button sends the vector images to the plotter. Because If they do I've been missing something since version 3 myself.

Does Roland offer a plot window for Corel? if so that is real nice of them.

If Corel does cut directly, then why are Winplot, CoCut and Sign tools in business? Hmmmm

True Type fonts ( which aren't even an issue here ) ARE printing fonts. They are made to be smaller so quality is not an issue. Your eye makes up for the imperfections. Now you don't have to blow up a font to 22" to see the imperfections. Take a 10pt font and make it 1" and then you can clearly see imperfections. That is a fact.

Don't tell me I'm wrong, I have done it, I have both. I know the difference.

Joe, next time you tell me I am being untrue, please explain yourself as to why my statement may be wrong.

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

YES corel and illistrator are desktop publishing programs, this was not the statement i said was untrue but had to include it so nothing would be taken out of context. the button that sends it to the plotter is in FILE and then PRINT. and all versions of corel have had a PRINT command.
as for a "plot window", if were talkin the same thing ....corel will allow you to work up to 150 feet x 150 feet. and if your at all corel savvy you make a template to accomadate your plotter highth and width and save it as a .cdt file so when you want to cut all you do is select that page setup.
as for brige programs.....well as P.T. Barnum said..."theres a sucker born every minute." or i should be nice and say that not everyone is computer or corel knowledgeable to find out the full capabilities of what they can do. ive said this before and will stand by this..."that corel draw(any one version) has a 5-7 year learning curve,if you learn everything that it is able to do." also corel will not tile or panel like bridge or full sign programs do, but if you know how to work in corel...this is not a problem either. ive also said before that co-cut was created from corels plotter engine or code. corel 5 & 6 wouldnt cut to plotter, and in that time co-cut leased the code or engine to sell their program. it was put back into corel 7 and up.
ok onto the font thing...i have a REGISTERED sign program LETTER ART 8.0, it had "dedicated fonts" same as gerber. ive cut a 1" alpha from it and same from corel,did the same up to 36" in a couple incriments. and the corel fonts cut no diferent then the LETTER ARTs did. also most of the corel fonts i use are ADOBE FONTS....now these are a lot cleaner then TT fonts. as for "my eye makin up for the imperfection..."not"...i wear glasses but one straight line looks like the next straight line. bob no disrespect intended here, and if i came across that way i will say iam sorry......but there are many others here that i have told how to cut from corel, and other that new it before me....so iam not alone here..

Posted by Philippe JACQUES (Member # 664) on :

Sorry Bob, THERE IS NOW A "Send to plotter" BUTTON INSIDE MY ILLUSTRATOR !

Just take a look at the picture http://www.magisign.com/US/prod/magisign/select.html This is a sreehnshot of an Adobe artwork, open within Adobe Illustrator. On the left, the original "Toolbar". On the right, the MagiSign palette is tabbed with Adobe Navigator Palette. And there is a "Send (to plotter)" button in on the top right corner of this palette !

It is true that this feature is not included in the original package. You have to buy something additional (from SummaDirect to be complete). Or download the free SignofNCS plug-in, my "older" version of the same idea.

As Adobe Developper Network member, I received all the info I needed to add a palette to the Adobe software so that now any of my customers may drive its sign cutting plotter from AI.

NCS MagiSign is not a standalone software, like many other, but a true plug-in that you load inside the memory of Adobe Illustrator as soon as you start the Adobe software ! You original file is the one which is used to proceed and none other. Just Select an artwork and plot. You never have to export or go out. So for any neophite, it could appear to be part of the original Adobe Illustrator (and more than once, i have to explain to attendees of my demo that MagiSign was not in their original package, despite the fact it is so similar to Adobe palettes).

The MagiSign palette is so in-depth inside AI that you can move it, tab it and group it with any original one (like the Navigator one) so it will move from then with this original palette.

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Philippe,

I understand how programs like your add the tools to Illustrator & Corel. That is what I said, they need 3rd party programs to work like a sign program.

Joe, About this print command, explain how your version of Corel " prints " to your plotter and mine doesn't Everytime I hit print I only get to choose between Windows installed printers.

If it works with Roland specificly, then that is a 3rd party driver made by Roland and not Corel.

Please explain.

Also how do you get cuttable drop shadows in Corel?

I understand the contour thing as outlines. I can also see creating another copy of the text, dropping it down and over, then welding it together, but that seems way to much work for such an easy task.

quote:
but to blame corel for a font foundrys screw up is like blaming the terrorists for a
hurricane.

I don't Blame Corel, or the font foundry, they make desktop software and fonts use in printing. That is what the Software is design for. I do however Blame Sign software companies that include TT fonts for cutting. I don't care if a program includes 2000 fonts, If they are TT and will be used for cutting then you can bet most of them are of poor quality when blown up.

Adobe fonts may be cleaner, I Don't know about them or use them.

What my point comes down to is use the right tool for the job. I'm sure you could figure out how to make a rock bang nails so you can build a house, but a nice high quality hammer will get the job done better and faster. ( and less bent nails)

To end my post I will say, using Corel for me is not the right tool, but for you it is the perfect tool.

We are both correct in our own minds, So lets agree to disagree. But the facts are the facts and cannot be disputed. Corel does not cut vinyl right out of the box by itself, and TT fonts aren't as clean as fonts like Gerbers that are made for cutting. Unless I have been buying the wrong Corel versions with the wrong fonts.

So my 2 statements are in fact true.

[ November 25, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]

Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :

Steve;Why not have someone here,or close to you
make the "stencil" for you?
Seems it would be a lot cheaper in the long run.
hope this helps

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

Bob..You are absolutely correct that Joe's Rolands and mine and all the other Rolands out there require that their Windows "printer driver" be installed, just like any inkjet printer requires that it's driver be installed to actually work.

BUT once the driver is installed then the actual cutting process is just as easy as using a dedicated sign program.

As far as the quality of True Type fonts is concerned..I have some that are garbage and most that are just fine. My attitude has always been that LARGE letters are meant to be viewed from a distance and small letters are meant to be viewed close up.

To borrow a quote from someone who previously posted it "a sign is to be viewed, not smelled". In other words, people don't put their noses so close to a sign that they could small it just to be able to read it. If they did, and judged the accuracy of the lettering from that vantage point, there probably wouldn't be a hand lettering artist worthy of their scrutiny.

Anyway...we all like the software/hardware combos we use, for whatever reasons, and there will never be a complete agreement by any of us.

Just my thoughts!

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

bob dave explained the print form corel, and yes you need to install the printer driver from roland. the same process takes place when you install gerber but it is done in the background so you never know its being done. anything outside your computer and that your program will comunicate with will require some sort of driver.
also corel treats the plotter as a printer so it communicates via the printer port in HPGL (HEWLETT PAKARD GRAPHICS LANGUAGE)this is one of the 1st ways plotter were used as blueprint machines. if the program produces a line the plotter reads the nodes....so to speak.
to create a drop shadow in corel, type text, duplicate, set colors for main copy then shadow, now you can seperate and cut 2 different colors, apply shadow 1st, main copy on top. or you do a cut thru shadow. with both sets of text on the page and postioned were you waht them, you can selet both, then go to ARRANGE on tool bar, select trim, cursor to selected object hit mouse and bingo you got the main copy as one color and the shadow is now only the shadow pieces, seperate and cut by color as you would in gerber...and your right that everyone has his favorite tool....just talk to the mac people....you think iam set in my ways!....JOKEIN MAC GUYS.....

Posted by Robin (Member # 1710) on :

I'm stuck on the photo resist thing too. My fiance' has a lasor engraving & decorative sandblasting business & to get the level of detail like Bronzeo, I can't see any other way. We have used monument tape as the adhesive instead of the glue & had much better luck with it.....got it from a monument co. I hand etch & gold leaf for. It's amazing the products that cross trades, or could if ya knew about them. And we have used 3ml. vinyl occasionally for the glass masking. He has a program that was $400 that converts any photos to sandblastable films. Does a great job on the eyes....I remember the price and not the name.... just like a woman. But could get it....
lots a luck

Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :

I have done a few "etched glass" pieces over the years. Everything from applying cheap "contact paper" to the glass and hand cutting the design,then sandblasting to cutting names and some basic designs out of intermediate vinyl (Corel7 & Roland Camm-1) and applying acid. I have dabbled in screening, and the fine amount of detail that you can get is definately worth checking out the method. I would be interested in some more info for my own self!

As far as converting your existing art to make it "cutter-friendly" that is a do-able but very large undertaking. I would be more than happy to visit with you, if you decide to use someone "outside" to help get some of this art converted over. clantongraphics@yahoo.com

Posted by Philippe JACQUES (Member # 664) on :

Bob

You are incredible ! You note we are adding tools to the original software we are using and consider it as a drawback and, in the same message, you are speaking about fonts… which are nothing else that external piece of software installed on your computer as our own tools are ! In practice, any oftware is an addition to another layer of codes. Any computer is a compilation of system resources, system drivers, system fonts, software, extensions, etc. So why to hurry about the fact the cutting driver is not inside the package you bought at the origin ?

For the rest, I totally approve your opinion : right tool for the right job. I 'm always surprised that signmakers have commonly lots of brushes, BUT a single cutting software to drive a plus or minus expensive cutter. Sure, some software companies ask a huge of money for a solution, but those days, a little investment is required to add features to your computer, but believe me, to add a plug-in to Illustrator as one to Corel is easy and could keep money and time in export/import/fix errors process !

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Philippe,

I don't want to continue to clog up this thread with this stuff, I was just trying to explain my earlier post, In which Joe said my statements were untrue, which in fact they were.

Any Sign software comes with all the tools to make signs right out of the box ( except the plotter & vinyl )

To a newbie or someone just embarking on the vinyl journey, to tell him or her to use Corel or Adobe illustrator without telling them they would need an add-on program to cut, use sign related tools or to have a Roland plotter to use a windows printer driver, is misleading.

The information between fonts may not be of interest to many but I for one am concerned about the quality of fonts. When I paint or cut vinyl.

quote:
In practice, any software is an addition to another layer of codes. Any computer is a compilation of system resources, system drivers, system fonts, software, extensions, etc. So why to hurry about the fact the cutting driver is not inside the package you bought at the origin ?

yes any software is an addition to another layer of codes, but the reason I was quick to note that these desktop publishing programs do not come with all the tools necessary, ( such as printer driver } again was to not mislead someone into making a purchas only to find they need to purchase another product just to make the first one work for the purpose intended.

I like to give people all the facts so they can make educated decisions for themselves.

Anyway please e-mail me with any other remittants, I have taken this post way off track and for that I appologize.

[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]

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