So after a year of converting all old jobs into Edge jobs and just converting my thinking into Edge thinking, Just the though of doing a sign with an outline and shadow in vinyl seems like so much work and material wasted.
I almost took out the brush and painted it. If it wasn't for the fact that I have design jobs to do and Don can lay vinyl better than hand lettering, I'd be brushing that sucker.
Talk about being spoiled, it hasn't even been 2 hours since the machine is gone and I'm having withdrawls.
time to call Edge Owners Anonymous
Machines will never replace the things we know or have learnt.
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
If Mr. Gerber is on his game, they may have it back to you in a week. They told me 2 weeks and it was just a few days! Hope it works out for you this way too.
This is a good time to get to know your brushes again. I had a restoration job last month, posted about some trouble I was having with the paint sticking on this BB, but all in all I had a very good trip down memory lane doing this job the "old way."
To get an "edge" on the situation, try making some hand carved or sandblasted sign samples to hang on your wall, since you can't do any "edge" work. 
Good Therapy!
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
I thought exactly like you untill the day they brought in my Edge and said " here , we are leaving this thing here for a month, here is all the foils and software you need to make money, see you in 30 days." So make money I did. A lot more for a lot less work and chemical exposure.
Then on the 31st day I became the proud owner of a Gerber Edge.
I haven't looked back since. I love both worlds.
Actually Rob the Edge thinks more like a sign painter than a plotter ever could think of.
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
Just like you & I have different opinions and views, customers have them as well.
Some customers wouldn't even dream of putting paint on thier cars with a wet brush, and others just the opposite
Different jobs require different tools
Thats all!
But I'd hate to hand letter 30 town seals 3" tall with 1/32 of an inch letters in a reverse panel and a 3 color photo quality graphic in the middle on reflective perferated material in the month of July in a newly black topped driveway in Texas, in 120 degree weather, while being trampled by a heard of albino baby zebras.
In a Leap year.......
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
They have already built a number of cad/cam paint machines.
Roger
And as most machines (It only knows what I will tell it!)
I haven't seen the day were I can pop it the info and say (Design me a Sign!)
Still human brain cells that do the thinking in my world.
Or half the cells (depending on the night before!)
We haven't come to the world of waking up and say (Lights On!-Breakfast ready or Door Open! yet.)
And when it does happen then my answer is (I QUIT!)
i find myself more and more farming these type jobs out to a shop locally that has the edge.(i make money with the edge even though i don't own one.
just like bob says, i wouldn't want to hand letter or weed 30-3" 4 color decals.
if i had it i would sell more of that type of work such as short run decals.
i believe the edge in capable hands can produce some stunning work.
it all comes down to design anyway.
if gerber dropped me one off today, they would have a heckuva time prying it from my fingers!!! LOL
my 2 cents,
mark
I can turn the lights on and off.
have you ever heard of the device called the "Clapper"
"Clap On, Clap Off"
http://www.cornells.com/asseentv/clapper.htm
hahahahahahahahha
mark
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
there was not enough volume warranted to screen print. so i subbed the job out to an edge owner with my design.(this is one of the many good things about the edge, after all the edge is only a tool to achieve the end results. I would rather dig a post hole with an auger than a teaspoon.)
i made a tidy profit even though i subbed it out.
i don't believe there is anyone here that has more passion for the sign biz than i do.
at the same time i like to make a profit.
keep swinging that brush and i will too.
i would still love to have the edge technology though.
just another tool in my belt.
keep that passion friend,
mark
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: bronzeo ]
http://www.deatondesigns.com/toons.html
bubba deaton, you are one of the ones that would rock on the edge!
Rob-
One of my largest accounts, in terms of dollars, gross AND net is a customer of one of the best pinstriping and lettering artists on the east coast. He designed an incredible logo and painted it on a couple of trucks. Next thing you know....they want him to put this logo on everything....we're talking hundreds of pieces of equipment. Who can blame them, the logo is awesome. He can't make this logo 200 times in 2 days, but my Edge can.
In this situation the Edge print will last as long as they have the equipment it is on. The Edge print can be installed by the customer at their location. They Edge print doesn't have to dry. Every highly detailed Edge printed logo looks exactly the same.
I understand we come from two different views. You say are in the "lettering biz" but I think of myself as being in the advertising business with lettering being only one of the ways the message gets conveyed.
[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Brian Snyder ]
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
We all are in the lettering biz! I believe most of us on this board share the same passion for the craft as well, God knows I do. My passion is hand lettering as well, when my truck comes back out of the body shop I plan on painting ALL the lettering, becuse that is what I love.
But not all customers have that same love for the craft. I do have a few die hards though.
Anyway, just like brian says in the above post, we have a customer that has an intricate logo that we airbrush on his trucks. Real nice job. He liked it so much he wanted it on his construction equipment.
So this is where the Edge comes in I can produce his logo in all sizes for all his equipment. Now I make a sale to my customer that I couldn't do before.
Because I can tell you he wouldn't pay me to airbrush his backhoe by hand.
Rob, I do respect your views and your passion. In no way am I trying to put them down, I share them as well. Believe me one year ago I swore I would never own an Edge because I thought the images were crappy, the life was short and I just wanted to produce quality graphics.
I have proved the quality of the print is ALL operator. The life of the print can be extended considerably by using the right products. And I still produce quality graphics.
Just in a more diverse way.
Oh, and I refuse to be the starving artist.
If I am not getting paid to paint then vinyl it is. plain and simple.
[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Try to get 25 years out of a new truck!
I think not.
And yes it does S*ck
You got me on that one! Ha Ha.
I guess I'll have to go buy me some of them Clappers.
The only problem I can see is the wife is always slapping me up side of the head.
Lights on! Lights off! every five minutes
First of all, the edge is not a first-generation machine like the 4B. When Gerber offered the first Signmaker to the industry, the vast majority of shops turned up their noses, so to recoup the investment, Gerber started selling them in Popular Mechanics, and suddenly everybody was a sign maker for a 5k investment, with all the predictable results.
I don't see that happening with the Edge. It's a far more complex piece of equipment (not to mention a lot more expensive) and tends to end up in the hands of people a bit more serious about what they are producing. Even a quickie-sticky lowball shop isn't going to sell an edge print truck job for $85 if they can sell one-color vinyl for that.
I don't have an Edge, and at this point buying the occasional print from Bob (thanks, buddy!) serves me just fine. Like any tool, it's value is in how it is used. And like Bob said, I too refuse to be a starving artist.
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
My print head went in one year. Thank God it was under warranty, because I have been told it is 2 grand just for the print head.
That is more than most people spend on a plotter and software.
Now warranty on a yearly basis is around $800.00 per year. Do you think I will buy it next year? Damn right i will.
And Rob your are right there will always be people low balling signs, either with machines or without.
I remember when I started there were a lot of snappers in my town painting signs just for the price of the daily buzz.
Don't think that is a new idea.
So by the time most shops have an Edge mine will be paid off and that was why I bought when I did.
That was my plan, I wanted to make money will it was still good to be made. Does that make me a bad letterhead?
You should check out what Karen Sousa does with an Edge, or Mike Jackson for that matter. 2 very talented sign painters that have harnessed the technoledgy. And produced fine pieces.
Hey there will always be another new invention around the corner, who knows maybe HP will invent a thermal printer for average joe-blow that Retails for 499.00 at Staples.
Have you seen the drive through inkjet style painting machine that works like a verticle printer ( SCARY ).
Kinda makes you think what we'll all be doing for jobs then.
Either harness the technoledgy or be harnessed by it.
It's up to you to decide when it is time to get off the merry-go-round.
Just my opinion. which isn't worth much on the New York Stock exchange.
DOH!
[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
Frankly, it just didn't pay enough to do this. I can't upsell these products because customers are out the door with a painted product and I don't see them again for 4 or 5 years. I recently sent some carving and painting work over to Stephan. He does a great job and we keep working on what makes us money. I turned down a job to do a 4x8 double sided, carved, hand painted sign because there wasn't enough money in it even though it would have been one heck of a job to do.
With an Edge we spend less time getting the job done and we keep the customer coming back for other things because the edge produces a quality product. Fridge magnets, vehicle magnets, stickers, decals and anything you can imagine.
Our work is still our work but we sell more of it.
I guess it is a matter of pride. But pride doesn't pay bills or put groceries on the table. Also we have to compete to stay alive. If you are one dimensional you won't compete long.
There are very few customers that want paint on their vehicles. I can't get the same or a little less for a vinyl job that takes me half as long.
You do the math.
Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS
First off I admire your passion for your craft, as has been said often by others in this thread. I will also say that you come off very self important about it at the same time.
Go, paint, and be passionate, and no one will criticize you for it. But going on & on about stickee quickee shops, bumper sticker business, or money driven greed, serves only to inflate your vision of the superiority or purity of your craft.
Creativity, fueled by passion, can be expressed in even the most mundane professions. Digital artists are no less divinely inspired then yourself.
You feel hand lettering artists will "...become rare breeds if we allow it." No doubt that Edge graphics & other digital prints will be cutting into territory previously served by older crafts. We have no choice but to allow that. But as in most things "rare" is more valuable.
I know I could learn to paint very well, as I have found some natural talent in most artistic tasks I have tried. I truly hope to expose myself to inspiration from keepers of the craft like yourself. I have no delusions that its quick to teach or easy to learn. I also have no shame that I lack that skill today. All things in time.
I wouldn't rule out talented digital sign makers who discover the older arts of painting, gilding, or carving after starting out designing vinyl signs.
As for the Edge watering down the trade, this is a capitalist society where you can buy bad food, worthless tools, & poor quality housing if you want to. The availability of cheap signs down the street is a fact of life.
I would typically ask more then $15/ft even for 2 color work, but while I'm making more then that weeding & applying a few feet of cut vinyl, my edge is simultaneously "banging" out 20 feet of product un-attended.
Supplying digital vinyl graphics to pay the bills is no more greedy then someone worrying about losing some painting work from it.
I consider myself to be a "Letterhead." I'm also in the Sign Business.
All you need to do to be a "Letterhead" is adopt an attitude of conviction that you will use your creative talents to help other "Letterheads" and in return be taught by them.
The "sign business" is providing the right sign for the client...period.
If that be hand painted, we do it, it that requires Edge printing, we do it, if its neon they need, I find it for them or who can do it.
I SERVE MY CUSTOMERS. ITS ABOUT THEM, not me!
Its about THEIR NEEDS, not my needs
Rob, you have to be a businessman first and then an artist. If not, you will learn the hard way that financial pitfalls that await you, like so many of us have, including me.
If you can't think "out of the box" you won't survive in business, and you wont get to be an sign artist anymore. You'll be working at Wal-Mart!
And one other thought for everybody. At the BNI meetings I go to, one of the businessmen ask us to reflect on how much "repeat" business is worth to each of us.
Each repete customer can be worth $20,000 or more to a small sign shop over a period of 10 to 15 years. Truck lettering, business signs, trade display signs, they need over that period of time adds up quick.
If you do not supply your customer with HIS signage needs...the proper signs he needs in each circumstance, he WILL GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO FIND THAT SIGN, and he may never come back to you.
Rob, and others, I suggest you find if there is a BNI group in your area you can join. At the very least, it will get you to start THINKING like a business person, then, the artist in you can survive and be fullfilled.
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
I've seen a number of sign shops come and go in my area, but one thing I have NEVER seen is a shop that failed because they charged TOO MUCH! Most often the people who complain about low prices are those who don't offer anything that a dozen other people can't offer.
Do I lose jobs to shops with routers? Probably. But I sure as hell don't lose sleep over it. My customers come to me because they get a complete package - design, installation, custom brackets, the works. The customer who spends $5000 for a mediocre ad-agency logo, then shops the yellow pages to save $100 on a sign from a "service provider" is not coming to me anyway, and who wants them? They get what they pay for. So do my customers. It's all about what they percieve as value.
Rob, I've met you and read a lot of your posts, and you have a lot of guts and integrity. That alone puts you miles ahead of most of your competitors. Use it. Put the passion and the integrity up front. The customers you want - the people who respect, and will pay, for that passion - they WILL respond, because like you, they don't see enough of it, and they starve for it. No one, with or without the latest machinery, can offer that if they don't have it in them to begin with. That's the "edge" that no technology will ever replace.
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Larkham ]
Rob stated:
quote:
Remember, most of the public does not care what it looks like. They want to know how much it costs.
I know this topic is getting waaaay off the original post - there's definitely a prickly issue here that has a lot of people sensitized. Lets try to figure out what's bothering everyone and discuss it in a professional way. Is it technology in general? The overall economy? The public's perception of value for what we do? The fact that there are huge differences between the genras of shops in this industry? (Not to mention the huge differences in individuals). Something more elusive that I missed?
Rob, hang loose, I don't think this about you personally. Want to start a new thread?
[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Joe Rees ]
I agree with Cam and Joe.
This is NOT a direct jab at Rob. And I don't like the tone this thread has become. That is why I called you this morning, I was going to tell you I am not contributing to this thread any more because it was going down hill fast.
I urge you to keep your passion. And trudge forward in your passion and beliefs. This in turn will strongly keep this craft alive and will inspire many, including myself.
Letterhead meets are a way for many of us to keep this craft alive and share what we know and learn what we don't.
You will never be a lesser man for learning all the old tricks and skills, but a much better sign man. And it will pay off such as those Gold leaf windows did for me. Please don't let any of this thread deminish your passion for the old ways.
Last year Cam taught me how to Carve by hand, I am now selling more carvings than I ever did. I just delivered one out to Hardwick Mass yesterday and was sold because it was done by hand.
People still like that!
At this point in my life I have no intension of ever getting a router, but I have learned to never say never.
Less words to eat that way.
quote:
I haven't personally attached anyone here but see where standing up for something will get me.
All that "standing up for something" got you was some valid different opinions. I don't feel that you were personally attacked, even though I was willing to put your name in my post.
A teacher of mine once said "the tallest trees take the most breeze"
quote:
Unlike others who think I'm being self important...
I wrote that you "come off as self important.." That is the impression I got reading your disdain for other arts, crafts, or businesses that include or compete with lettering but don't measure up to how you letter.
Since you edited all text out of your posts, could it be that you found them to be giving the wrong impression of where you want us to see that you are coming from?
quote:
For some of the friends I've made here, I will see you around at the meets. For the rest of you have a nice life.
I don't feel personally attacked, but when I attend meets with hopes to exchange knowledge I may have to offer for exposure to hand lettering, I'll hope I've made some friends here as well.
My apologies if my posts have caused a downturn in the "tone" of this thread. I am new to participating in a BB, and felt that when I have a response I want to make that I should feel free to do so.
I am not intentionally confrontational person, if I am out of line here...Let me know! I will delete my comments & go back to being a silent observer until I have something nice to say.
