Step 1: Approach ignorant person talking about "peace" and saying
there should be "no retaliation"
Step 2: Have brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate
Step 3: When he says "no," ask, "Why not?"
Step 4: When he says, "because that would just cause more innocent deaths,
which would be awful, and we should not cause more violence"...
Step 5: Punch him in the face . . . hard
Step 6: When he gets up to punch you back, point out that it would be a
mistake, and contrary to his values, to punch you, because he would be just
increasing the violence.
Step 7: When he agrees that he has pledged not to commit violence, punch him
in the face again - harder this time.
Step 8: Repeat steps 5 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is
necessary to punch back.
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
I’m glad you straightened that out..
Other than not mentioning its “funny”, the heading of this post is misleading. No, it did not make me think. I think already.
It made me mad, and the thought of unremitting hitting is disgusting..
So we’ve been retaliating. Afghanistan is even more uninhabitable now. So much rubble, our planes can’t find new places to hit and return with the bombs.
Are a lot of people feeling better now?
Are we again safe for Democracy?
Last I heard, Osama is still a live man walking and lots of innocents are dead.
I maintain, there must be a better way.
Maybe if we sit down and talk to them ,everything will be better !!
Joey! seems you steped in something !! HaHaHaHaHa
Roger
Now, regarding my personal views on my original post. I think the scenario has a very valuble message in it, that was written to provoke thought, and absolutely was not written to encourage anyone to go out and punch anyone else in the face. The overall message I got from it was that there is a time to justifiably defend ones self, family and nation with force.
Our TV and radio stations are full of propaganda just now, its good to come here and learn from each other, and share things that relate to our bond with the sign industry....I for one am tired of all the bible quotes, and political stuff you have to wade thru before finding something fun to discuss.
I wasn't sure whether this was humour or serious, and that's often the problem with this medium, even if the poster is posting with good intent, as I am sure most are.
Ryan, you wouldn't happen to be a professor in political science???? Or maybe Theology?????
Imagine how boring it would be if everybody fell into place in lockstep on this Board even more than they already do, and if there were no divergence of opinion.
If you are interested in more of what I think, just find the above mentioned post. Otherwise, let’s all just carry on.
Next step is to collapse all their so called
"caves" ...which are really sophistcated underground bunkers.
[url] http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-28.htm [/url]
Roger hit it on the head when he said if you find a better way to resolve this, let us know. We have asked for bin laden to be handed over. 26 days later we still didn't have him. So, we took the next step, we started bombing targets in Afghanistan that were tied to him. Yes, it is unfortunate that it has come to this. I for one would have liked to see the Taliban hand him over, if nothing else so he would have the suffering of being shipped to the country he hates to stand trial for his actions.
What exactly were we suppost to do? Were we to call the Taliban every day and say "can we please have bin laden today?" when they say no, are we to then thank them, hang up and call back the next day, again asking for him, hoping that someday they say yes? This man is responsible for over 5,000 deaths. In this country, if you kill 1 person, the police come and get you. They don't call and ask you to come in to be arrested and accept when you refuse.
Afghanistan had been warned. They were given the opportunity to avoid our attacks on them by handing over bin laden. So we're killing a few civilians while trying to kill bin laden. Big deal. Were the 5,000+ innocent civilians who died 9/11 warned and given the opportunity to avoid the horrific events of that day?
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
it they capture him bring him to me and i will make him dig 200 post holes and fill them with sakrete, then drag him back to the shop, and wrap his tongue around the sproket feed of the old 4B and turn it on.
then at gunpoint make the S.O.B. weed thousands of quarter inch times bold that has been cut without proper weight. everytime he pulls up a letter, hit him with the electro-pounce.
next day after 5 minutes sleep i would take him back out and make him dig up all the sakrete from the holes of the postholes he dug the day before.
Disclaimer; CAUTION, THE COMMENTS ABOVE WERE MEANT TO BE HUMOROUS, anyone
offended, unplug your computer now and reboot!!!
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
What I got a kick out of was the Taliban running around complaining about some innocent civilians being hurt.
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mikes Mischeif ]
reporting live from afganistan... mr. mischeif
oops... i mispelled mischief.
caution, the above post was intended as sarcasm, make no mistake about it.
[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Mark Fair Signs ]
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
No one plan is going to please everyone.
I made a decision on what we have all seen and heard. I find it curious that some are still undecided. Again Thats OK. Share with us why the jury is still out. Everyone has changed thier minds as more information is available.
Sorry about the tone of the above post. No personal attack was intended.
(I would use similar words if I intended to be sarcastic, please be assured this is close to a sincere statement)
let's all pull together, and at the same time with differing opinions, let's make this world a safer place to live.
continue to express your opinion, because as an american, i will.
what the hell do i know, i am just a signpainter.
mark
now git off my back!!! 
mark
I hope that the people here do not make the mistake of grouping all people of Islam into one large group of people to hate for these crimes. The hatred for America is very layered, but I'm sure one of the largest reasons is blind jealousy. It reminds me of the antimosity some Americans feel against the wealthiest here in the USA ( how many people really think Bill Gates is a great person? He prospered, and as a result he is one of the largest targets of ill regard in our nation).
When these extremist orginizations are allowed to supress their people and not allow them to prosper, they are effectively creating a society of deprived and jealous people who begin to hate us for being prosperous, and possibly arrogant about it. This however is not our fault. We have the right to enjoy our prosperity, and should think long and hard about why the people of Afghanistan are starving, etc. Until orginizations like the Taliban, and Al Queda are exterminated, people will continue to be repressed, starved, brutalized, and the hatred and jealousy for us " rich, fat Americans" will continue.
As each day goes by I believe less and less that this is a hatred brought on my religion, but more so brought on my jealousy.
LE, I hope you don't think that the email in my original post was implying that we should go out and hit a peace protester, (it was merely explaining that there is a time when it is right to defend ones self) but if you think that that post was violent, what do you think about innocent women being stoned, and beaten for talking in public, or being completely covered etc...
Let's all hope for our troops and our neighbors safety throught all of this. It sure wouldn't be any fun to come on here and share, laugh and debate without the diverse group that is here.
Jeff Bailey
is
It very effectively states that there WILL be a great consequence for those that choose to attack our nation and kill OUR innocent people. ( the world trade centers were definitly not military insalations, and there obviously was not a well broadcast warning/ultimatum that gave these people a chance to have a hand in choosing their fate. The people killed in the World Trade centers and the Pentagon were also not harboring and promoting terrorist actions.)
It also demoralizes Taliban followers, troops, and hopefully would-be terrorists, with the hopes of preventing further action from them.
It is giving the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan some much needed help in removing the Taliban from power in Afghanistan.
It is an on-going action with the goal of driving these terrorists into a position where we have the military advantage and we can seek out and eliminate them. There is no nice way of stating that. If a person came into your home and viciously killed your loved ones I would assume that you would expect our law enforcement officers to actively seek out and punish the ones responsible for this to the fullest degree of the law. Now I do understand that there are allot of complicated issues with this current issue because of borders and differences in laws ( and the fact that the Al Queda obviously believe that they are above any law other than their own).
LE, This is not revenge. This is a well planned out action with very clear goals. This is a war no matter how you look at it, and I have faith in our leaders that if there were a peaceful way to resolve this, they would have. Because I do have faith in this decision does not in any way say that I am not a thinker. I think long and hard about this every day, and like the consequences that we are imposing on the Taliban and Al Queda, I also realize that there will be consequences here on our soil do to the cowardly terrorist retaliation. That is war though, and that is why we have our Armed Forces, Law Enforcement agencies, and why we as Americans have retained our rights to defend ourselves, travel freely, speak freely, think freely, and express our views and opinions publically.
As a closing to this note, I ask you a question. If military retaliation is not the answer, then please tell us how you feel this should be handled? Tell us how you think we should work toward eliminating future blind terrorist attacks on our civilians, and how you feel we should retain our personal liberties.
LE,
What I am about to say is not a personal attack toward you.
Your statement is the very problem I have with Intellectualism.
Violence is not a sign of non-intelligence nor is it a display of anti-intellectualism.
Peace requires that it is something that both sides want.
Peace requires that both sides are willing to respect each other's sovereignty.
Peace requires that neither side wants war or violence.
Peace does not necessarily require inteligence, but it does require wisdom.
In this case, one side did not want the same as the other.
In this case, one side did not respect the sovereignty of the other.
In this case, one side declared war and wanted violence.
In this case, one side did something unwise.
In this case, the US was not the aggressor.
LE, have you ever dealt with a bully? I have. From Junior High through my Freshman year in High School (7th through 9th grade) a single boy terrorized me. It was rare that a day didn't go by that he didn't do something to make me miserable. You see, I was a pacifist. I didn't believe in violence either. I thought it was wrong. I always thought I could reason with him and that violence never solved anything.
I was wrong.
In the early part of my second semester of my Freshman year, he got some of his buddys with him and together they put me in the hospital.
All he got was a 2 day suspension.
A few weeks after I recovered and returned to school, he started again. He went looking for me. It seemed he was blaming me for his suspension and he was looking to get his pound of flesh. He had already been told to never come near me again. He didn't care. He was told that the next time he would be expelled. He didn't care.
He found me in the hallway between classes and started pushing me around. Then he took a swing at me.
I had had enough.
All the pent up rage came out. I beat the living crap out of him. I put him in the hospital.
Was it for revenge? No. I never wanted it. I just wanted to be left alone.
Long story short....he never bothered me again. The school didn't expell him as they said. But, that didn't matter.
Violence in this case did solve something. It also did some good.
It brought up my own sense of worth.
It brought repect to me from my peers.
Attacking bin Laden is the only choice we have. He doesn't understand anything else.
What good will our "bouncing a few rocks" serve? Well first of all, anyone else thinking to attack us will think twice. We will gain the respect of our peers. We will gain greater self-esteem (not to be confused with arrogance).
Intellectual thought will not and can not achieve the peace we seek. Intellectualism is a sign of weakness to a bully. It will only invite war and violence as long as there are people like bin Laden.
There is something far superior than Intellectualism.
Its called Wisdom.
A wise person knows when to fight and when not to.
Now is the time to fight. To do less will only embolden the terrorists and invite more violence.
We can do two things.....
Do nothing and let them kill more of our innocents.
Or, we can fight back and work to prevent more of our innocents from being murdered.
Which would you choose?
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
BUSH: "You know, if you find a person that you've never seen before getting in a crop-duster that doesn't belong to you, report it...."Press Conference, 10/11/01
Even Sec. of Defense Rumsfield says that this "war on terrorism" will not be won by military action. Even Sec. Rumsfield refers to the bombing missions as "making the rubble bounce". Also.. I thought we were at war with terrorism, not Afghanistan.
You seem to think we are attacking the people who masterminded the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon.. We are bombing Afghanistan. Did Afghanistan mastermind the terrorist attack?
Yes, I am very worried about American Civil Rights. Beginning with a very messed up "war on drugs", I have noticed some serious infringements on the civil rights of American citizens. Indeed, only a few card-carrying ACLU members seemed to mind last week when the president’s spokesman, Ari Fleischer (who once said that gas-guzzling was part of the American “way of life” , warned all Americans that “they need to watch what they say, watch what they do” in this time of crisis. (As if evoking the specter of “thoughtcrime” from the book “1984” wasn’t enough, Fleischer fashioned himself as Big Brother, rewriting history by removing the words “watch what they say” from the official transcript of the press conference.) The just passed "terrorism bill" is full of problems for our civil rights. Did you know that that bill makes it LAW that anyone convicted of hacking or defacing web sites will get MANDATORY life in prison with no possibility of parole.. think about what that means. Think about how all of BinLaden's video diatribes are now censored from American viewing... this does NOTHING to prevent anything, other than americans from seeing them, since his msgs are shown in full in the rest of the world. Let's see, censorship of the press, instigating paranoia among the citizens of the country... While we're proving with our Flag waving and God Bless Americaning, that the terrorists don't scare us, our government is leaning toward a guilty-until-proven-innocent model of profiling, hoping to secretly record the meetings of certain religious groups and pushing for wide-spread use of surveillance cameras coupled with face recognition software so that computers literally could know where any of us is at a particular moment.
The bigger problem is a nation where all debate is stifled in the name of unity—sort of like those dictatorships that we’re always condemning. A recent poll shows that we trust our government more now than at any point since 1966. Doesn’t that concern anyone?
As for a solution... how would you solve the problem of dog poisonings that happen in the wee hours of the night? Looks like you'll have to give up some sleep, doesn't it?
LE
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
L.E., Myra,Rick ??
Roger
quote:
We are bombing Afghanistan. Did Afghanistan mastermind the terrorist attack?
No. They chose to protect the terrorists. In the US, protecting a murderer makes you an accomplice and subject to the same penalty.
Ask Michael Jordan about Larry Martin Demery.
**********
LE,
We are not the bully. In what way did the US bully bin Laden and the other terrorists that justifies killing innocent civilians?
What is bin Laden's reason? In his own words....
1) We support the right of Israel to exist.
2) We have a military base or two in Saudi Arabia with the permission of the Saudi leadership.
3) Anyone who is "Christian" or "Jewish" is an enemy of Islam and must die.
http://www.flinet.com/~politics/jihad/jihad.htm
We helped Afghanistan repel the Soviet invasion.
We helped the muslim people of Kuwait repel an invader.
We helped defend the Muslims of Bosnia from genocide from the Serbs.
We paid Afghanistan millions upon millions not to grow poppy (heroin).
A million people did not die as a result of a lack of food or medicine due to US sanctions imposed on Iraq.
Sorry. But you are wrong. Very wrong.
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
LE... In all your intilectual capacity, can you please inform us of just how you would handle this situation?
Oh, one more thing.... We ARE actively seaking out Osama Bin Laden, the Al Queda, the Taliban etc... and yes these targets are in Afghanistan. If these targets were in Iraq would it be we still be wrong for "bombing Iraq"? You seem to want to make it sound like we are blindly blowing all of Afghanistan to bits, and pointlessly blowing rubble into greater rubble.
If there were a Terroriststan or Bin-Ladenville would it then be ok with you? Could we then pursue our action of seaking out a Criminal if he were in a country without civillians?
I don't claim to be brilliant here, but I do think Glenn struck gold when he observed that it is Wisdom that matters here. Knowing when to fight and when not to. Am I a non thinker because I fully support the belief that now is the time? Should we not believe in our nations leaders? I think we should always be aware of what is going on, and yes we should question their plans, and actions, but when the answers are satisfactory to a majority, will we still be called non-thinkers?
Jeff Bailey
Thanks for posting the info on the terrorism law LE. That's the best news I've seen in a while. I hope it includes virus creators/senders as well. It's about damn time.
We tried the liberal approach and look where it got us. Clinton offered alot of lip service instead of action, that sure scared the terrorists off didn't it ? Protecting civil rights is important but I for one am sick and tired of courts bending over backwards for those who just want to cause problems. I don't know if the law is still this way, but the way it was someone could get raped and they couldn't even get a court ordered aids test on the creep. Let's punish criminals for a change, and that goes double for the Taliban and gang. Sweet talkin' ain't gonna make much of an impression on them.
In Baghdad there is a hospital. This hospital does its best every day to service the needs of its patients everyday. However, the ruler of Bahgdad decided to construct a nuclear weapons facility underneath the hospital.
This ruler has shown in the past that he has no problem with attacking his neighbors without provocation. He's done it before. This ruler has even boasted that if he ever does get "the bomb", that he would not be afraid to use it. In fact, he intends to use it when he gets the chance.
Query: What would an Intellectual do? What would be the intellectual solution?
UNTIL someone, anyone, can offer that solution, I support the current action 110%.
Maybe I'm just not educated enough to understand?
Yup, pretty much the response I expected!
[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: coop ]
I believe Mr. Fair and I may share the same legal council, so...
Disclaimer; CAUTION, THE COMMENTS BELOW ARE MEANT TO BE HUMOROUS, anyone offended, unplug your computer now and reboot!!!
I know this is not the appropriate thread to ask for help, but since some of the contributors above appear to be rather knowledgeable about Afghanistan affairs, I thought maybe, just maybe, someone could confirm a rumor I heard. I believe I was informed that Afghanistan will be hosting a rather large International Airshow (or may already be hosting.) I think I was also informed that the United States of America, at the urging of a high percentage of citizens, would have a very strong showing. Other esteemed countries are to participate to truly make it like no other International Airshow witnessed in a long time. If I heard correctly, the hosting government may act in such a manner to help prolog this Airshow. I’m curious, has anybody else heard this?
Disclaimer; CAUTION, THE COMMENTS ABOVE ARE MEANT TO BE HUMOROUS, anyone offended, unplug your computer now and reboot!!!
BUT, (like a political scholar,you dance around our question, and avoid a direct answer!
Instead you tell us "you will need a better plan" ?
L.E. are you now or have you ever been in politics ?
Maybe you should consider it !!
Still waiting for YOUR better idea(s) !!
Roger
Roger
I could read a bunch of books, articles, or websites & be presumptious enough to second guess our President, military leaders & foriegn policy analysts? But there's enough pompous armchair saviors spouting that kind of stupidity already.
Like the saying goes..."if your not part of the solution, your part of the problem"
LE says:
quote:
Sorry.. I need a solution that makes sense. You say that wisdom is more important than intelligence... well, show me wisdom, and I'll show you the perfection of intelligence coupled
with experience, and a great deal of critical thinking.
All I see is a great deal of critical posting!
Roger
As usual, you misquoted me (seemingly to fit your POV)
I said...
quote:
There is something far superior than Intellectualism.Its called Wisdom.
I never said that intelligence is more important than wisdom. There is a difference between intelligence and Intellectuallism. You should know that.
Please pay attention and get it right next time.
My grandfather used to tell my mom, her sister and brother that if they had been in a fight in school he would know about it before they got home and they would be asked 3 questions. The answers had better be No, Yes, Yes (in that order) or your butt was his.
Did you start it?
Did you finish it?
Did you win?
