A friend, business associate and customer came in today and told me that a former customer of mine--who owns an upholstery shop and a flea market on his property is now opening a SIGN SHOP there too.
It turns out he said I was waaaaay too high on the last sign I quoted for him, and I didn't even bid the job. He goes on to say he is practically gonna be giving it away at first to generate business.
I am pretty sure he said all this to my friend in order to steal his business form me.
His location is pretty crappy, on a busy highway at the crest of a hill 15 miles from anywhere, and neither he nor his wife are artists by any stretch.
Should I worry? I mean, I know the only work he is likely to take are bottom feeders, but he may also take some of the indifferent ones who don't know good design when they see it.
I make a decent living here, but til I get a few loans dealt with I don't have much to stick back--and i am concerned, because even a little slice of "Just enough pie" can be harmful...
What would you guys do/think in my situation?
I have been in business for almost nine years, and this is the first time I have ever had direct competition with comparable technology...
so tell me I am bein' stupid and get it over with....
BaRry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
[This message has been edited by Tasmus (edited August 30, 2001).]
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
hey barry, you have nothing to worry about if you do better work than him.
WOW Barry....9 years without direct competition..yer a lucky guy.
I wouldn't worry about the new guy though....He won't be in business long if he starts out lowballing everything to generate business. It is REALLY tough to explain to a repeat customer why ya raised yer prices drastically once they start dealing with you.
hahahaha "Well I gave ya a real good deal at first just to get you roped in...NOW I am gonna stick it to ya!! "
It'll be interesting to see how long before you post that your new competion has just folded!
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
Posted by Linda Silver Eagle (Member # 274) on :
That's kewl, he'll get all the bottom feeders out of your way!
Let him dig his own grave. Keep your nose clean.
------------------ PEACE SIGNS Big on Murals and Tight on Camera Ready!
"With every breath, we have a choice." --Linda Silver Eagle Georgia, USA
Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :
Don't worry. Customers are not going to drive 15 miles from nowhere to buy junky signs from someone who can't design unless he gives them away. The few who do will soon see the difference. I know there are folks out there with no taste, but it doesn't take a trained eye to choose the better sign. You know that he will be using only calendered vinyl. Oh, and don't let anyone tell him about Letterville! He may just learn enough to BE competition!
------------------ Kathy Joiner River Road Graphics 41628 River Road Ponchatoula, La.70454 PH. (504)386-3313 casey@i-55.com
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist.
Posted by coop (Member # 504) on :
This guy owns an upholstery shop & a flea market? Ignore him, act like he does not exist. On second thought, memorize his phone#. Everytime you get that cheapskate/weirdo/price-shopper call, you know exactly where to send 'em. Keep this guy as busy as you can with all of the "flakes", leaves you more time to make some money with "real" customers.
If this sounds scary to you, don't worry, it scared me too. I got this little piece of advice from another Letterhead a few years ago. It works!(At least it works for me).
This advice is worth every penny I charge for it, and no animals were harmed during the typing of this post.
------------------ "I have the body of a God.....(Buddha)"......................................... David Cooper, The Sign Shack Enid, OK. signshack@peakonline.com
Posted by RonniesTintSigns (Member # 1669) on :
Since everyone seems to not ask for a deposit send your wife or someone he doesn't know & order 150 18 x 24 real estate signs if he wants a deposit hell give him $20.00. If he wants to be a sign man hell lets break him in LOL. Tell him you need them ASAP & you'l need another 150 next week for a branch office.Then butter him up by saying he sure is a lot cheaper than the guy down the street (you). Is this mean? Hell yes, Is it funny? Hell yes For those who don't like my idea..Do I care? Hell no! Just Kidding but it sure sounds like fun.
[This message has been edited by RonniesTintSigns (edited August 30, 2001).]
Posted by RonniesTintSigns (Member # 1669) on :
deleted
[This message has been edited by RonniesTintSigns (edited August 30, 2001).]
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Ronnie, HAHAHAH! but, ummmmm NO.
not my style, bro. but thanks anyway.
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
Hi Barry, If you're not used to having competition there's a couple simple things that can keep everybody honest. First of all, I suspect your new 'competitor' is in for a HUGE awakening about how easy it AIN'T to stay in business being the underpricer. In the meantime, there's a good chance he will manage to make you look pretty good after he royally screws up a few things and doesn't even have the knowlege to grasp how bad his work sucks. But he's there for now so lets deal with him.
The worst situation I can think of is having customers shop you for design and him for price and try to get the two of you to fight each other for their business. To stop that you'll need a firm policy for how you'll design - by fee. They have to make a cash commitment to you before you can design their sign. Either a seperate flat design charge or, my preference, a retainer (deposit) paid toward the future sign to initiate the design and estimating. In truth, we do a lot of estimating and designing without a deposit for our regular customers. But whether a repeat or new contact, we ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a frank discussion up front about their BUDGET. We ALWAYS show an accurate rendering of the sign for approval before any work is done. And we ALWAYS get money before we build anything - more and more often lately, jobs under $500 are prepaid and over $500 are half down.
Recap - Fee for design - money has to change hands. Discuss budget up front and be realistic. Approved layout with colors, fonts, etc. Deposit before fabricating anything.
If a client has trouble with any of those terms and you can't explain it to them in a way that makes them happy, then let them go to the other guy. They can bug each other and be uninformed and ignorant together. If the clients ever get tired of the BS they can come back to you and have some professional work done - by the rules. Hang tough.
I know this might seem scary, but it's only natural to feel that way.
Tell your friend your going to open up an upholstry shop and give away the work for nothing at first just to generate business.
haha no seriously just move forward and don't look back. I just found out a marina I used to do work for just bought a vinyl system and not only is doing there own signs but doing boat lettering while you wait.
Funny thing is I never noticed a drop in sales.
Go wish him luck and move on.
You'll do fine.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
[This message has been edited by Bob Rochon (edited August 30, 2001).]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Barry,
Let your competition worry about you. As long as you provide a good product at a fair price with good service, you will never have to worry about your new competition. Like Linda said, let him suck in all of the bottom feeders. It'll give you more time to do work for those with money.
And as far as any competition goes, if it doesn't kill ya, it will only make you stronger.
Call one of his competitors in the upholstery business and make friends with em. Off to do em up a great looking sign for a very reduced rate, and then get some of their business cards and keep em at your shop to give out. That's one thing. He'll soon learn that making signs is just not a jump on the bike and ride kinda thing. He'll get some customers, but those that want quality work won't be going to him. I found that out the same way you are going to. Two print shops in town got plotters and went into the sign business, but they have yet to put up one sign that looks decent. Neither of them install, except about a month ago, one of them installed some gemini letters on a corrugated building and as you go past, they look like they are doing the wave. Laugh my a** off every time I drive by. Just keep doing your thing.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Design 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
Thanks for all the replies guys--I particularly appreciate the added reinforcment on PAID DESIGNS.
Thanks a bunch.
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
on the down side here...he has 2 other business to support himself with....dont know how good a business man he is...he could run the sign shop as a NON-PROFIT entity to cover money made in the other 2. also he can effect the price structure in your area....he can sell cheap and the people become accustomed to the lower prices which will effect you....even if he goes under. also he can out last you if hes got more working capitol(and 2 other businesses)...having a shop and closing it..i found that out real quick..you need at least 3-6 mos worth of money(rent, utilities) in the bank to cover the slow times...which i didnt have ...but you got nine years of "reputation" which is a plus for you....quality of work...well, depends on the buyer..if hes lookin for quality or price....her in pcola price is #1....because of all the "hobby" sign makers...
------------------ joe pribish-A SIGN MINT 2811 longleaf Dr. pensacola, fl 32526 850-944-5060 BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Hi, All, This is more of an observation than anything else, so please, don't anybody take it the wrong way. It seems to me that as a group, sign people tend to worry, stew, and fret over the "competition" more than almost any trade or profession that I can think of. As far as I know, plumbers, electricians, roofers and siders, carpenters, and all the rest don't do this, at least not to the extent that we do. These folks go into business and just get on with it. Before you all start screaming it's not the same thing, we're artists, let me beg to differ to some degree. I will grant there may not be much art involved in the trades mentioned, but when you get right down to it, once you have gotten past the design phase of signs, what is left? Mostly mechanical skills. That having been said, my feeling on the subject is this; do good work to the best of your ability, charge a fair price-- and that means fair to all concerned-- quit worrying about the other guy, and get on with your life and your work. One last thought . I find the term "bottom-feeders" highly offensive, some of these people just might turn out to be your best customers. They can also turn out to be your worst nightmare if they happen to hear that, and other derogatory terms being bandied about.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
To every bit of what you said Bill Preston; Amen!
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
I make no apologies for the use of the term BOTTOM FEEDERS.
I have never had a Low-balling, penny-pinching bellyaching, nitpicky BOTTOM FEEDER become even a moderately good customer.
Few ever are even REPEAT customers.
Granted, I am sure there are exceptions, but I wager not a many. the term bottom feeder speaks to an ingrained character trait that is common in the picky and the chintzy. It doesn't get better with time.
I learned this from painful experience in my early days of bending over backwards and tying myself in knots to please them.
These days, I produce the best quality with the most innovation the price allow, and my price is usually the highest around. I give my best, and that is what I expect.
I did not "take them to raise", and I will keep my interests in the fore of my mind in whatever work I do.
Bottom feeders are there to suck up whatever they can, and I am just not gonna cater to that mindset. They will just, with rare exception, find somethin' to get pissed about anyway.
so bottom feeders they are, and bottom feeders they shall remain.
jus' my E.G.O. talkin....
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Hi, again Barry, and other interested parties, No apology for your opinion was sought, or expected. You have your opinions based on your experience, and I have mine. Let me come at this from a different angle. As you may or may not know, my primary source of earning a living for many years was as an RN in the emergency department of the local hospital. It was in that capacity that I saw the best, and worst of people under the most trying of circumstances. I had to learn very quickly how to deal with their stress, to say nothing of my own. At about that same time, there was a TV ad that went something like this-- "You only get one chance to make a good first impression." The two items are connected. In dealing with potential customers the first impression thing holds true from both sides of the counter. You or I form an opinion real quickly by how that person comes across in that first minute or two. By the same token, the customer forms an immediate opinion of you or me in that same first minute or two. That first impression, from either side of the counter, can be blown in a heartbeat. I like to think that it is possible to turn a "bottom-feeder" into a good customer just by the way he or she is treated in that first minute. It only takes a look, a tone of voice, a word or a phrase, especially from our side of the counter, and the whole deal goes down the tubes. I guess what it comes down to is this; until you (or I) are convinced otherwise, treat that potential customer as a reasonably intelligent human being worthy of our attention for however long it takes to determine what he or she needs, and all the rest of the business that goes with that. Just my opinion,
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Thanks for your opinion Bill. I understand better where you are coming from now.
That all said, I still say that "BottomFeeder-ness" has little to nothing to do with impressions--first or otherwise. I believe it is an attitude that is formed by a very specific world view that actually SHAPES how someone poercieves a first impression, or whatever.
I guess I am saying that man of them are just predisposed to being chintzy jerks.
my 2 cents....
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Barry, as I said before, you are entitled to your opinion, and I would defend your right to express it. My opinion differs from yours based on, I think,a lot more years of dealing with people under varying circumstances. I hope that this difference doesn't generate animosity. I have to unplug for a while, there is nasty weather coming in.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
Barry, From what I have seen of your work, I wouldn't worry too much about the other guy. You can hang with the best. Keep doing what you're doing and keep your prices up so you can make a living. I've been the highest priced shop here for 30 years and believe me, there have been a few others come and go. I'm still here!
------------------ Frisby Signs, Inc. El Dorado, Arkansas 870-862-5073
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Thanks Roy.
and no harm no foul Bill.
Barry
------------------ Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting Clinton AR 5017456246 ICQ 17430008 "Imagine the Possibilities..."
Posted by Scott Moyer (Member # 1433) on :
Why don't you run an add in one of those cheap newspapers near his business announcing a new upohlstery shop just to play with him a little after all with a little shop space and a retiree you could recover seats too. Don't worry to much In the begining you'll see work going to him but that will fall off after awhile.
------------------ Scott Moyer Promised Land Pennsylvania 570-595-0310
