The Letterville BullBoard: Gold leaf sticking to the sign where I don't want it to.

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Posted by Philip Steffen (Member # 2235) on :

I carved into HDU foam. Used two(2) coats of Jay Cooks primer. 3 coats of latex Bengimen Moore paint. Waited 18 hrs. Applied size to the carved letters, waited for proper tack, applied gold leaf, started to remove excess with cotton ball and noticed the leaf sticking to the area around the letters too; even though I was good and accurate with the size and did not get it all over the place. Even inches away from the letter I am getting remenent gold leaf flakes that are sticking to the background and don't rub of with the cotton swab. The paint is dry. Should I wait days after I paint before I attempt to lay the leaf? Is there an easy way to correct what looks like a sign guilded by a 3rd grader? If not, what is the hard way? (Repaint carefully by brush around all the letters to eliminate the sloppy gold leaf?) What prevents this problem in the first place?

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Phil Steffen, Adirondack Engraving & Sign Shop,
Glens Falls, NY, USA

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Phillip,

My theory is that the latex paint, being different than enamel, has properties that just attract gold and it dosen't want to give it up without a fight.

Makes you wonder why you even needed to to use size in the first place if it was going to stick so well to areas with no size.

Maybe Pierre can tell us if we clearcoated with PELUCID everywhere except the area to be gilded if the gold leaf would flake off like its supposed to.

Good question, Phillip, I would like some ideas as well how to handel this learning curve.

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Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA

Get To A Letterhead
Meet This Summer! See
you there!
DUCK SOUP SPLATTER JAM
Sept. 14,15,16
Somewhere in Alabama
--------------------
309-828-7110
drapersigns@hotmail.com
Draper_Dave on mIRC chat

Posted by Jeff Lang (Member # 336) on :

Philip,
Often times, Benjamin Moore paints will hold moisture, well after they are dry, giving the finish a slight tack. Next time, do a few samples with different brands, excess gold will be less likely to stick to flat finishes. Unless you used 12 hour size ( which actually never completely dries), try & clean the excess off with a clean, damp, soft cloth. If it doesn't come off, you may have to repaint over it.
To prevent this from happening again, I use talc or rouge, lightly dusted on the surface with an applicator pad (just like the ones used for makeup), softly blow off the excess, & put my size right over. When the size is ready, the rouge will prevent the gold from sticking. After the size is dry, you can carefully wipe the face of the sign clean.
It's always best to try a few test pieces first to try & get the hang of it. Maybe even make a few samples for youself in the process!
Good Luck,
Jeff Lang

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Jeffrey P. Lang
Olde Lang Signs
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
412 732-9999
oldelangsigns@msn.com

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Yup. You got it, Davey.

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

There are a couple of different tricks when dealing with gold. I'm no expert but will only repeat what has been taught to me when faced with this same problem.

1. Take a Q-Tip and dip it in powder. Spread the powder all around the letters that will be guilded. Be very careful not to get powder on the letters as you may get a rough looking guild. After guilding wash off powder.

2. Take a potato and cut it in half. Rub the potato juices all around the letters. The film left will protect areas not to be guilded. Wash film off with soap and water when done.

3. Mix an egg white with about a quart of water. Brush it all around the letters. Let dry. Guild and wash with soap and water. This works the same way as the potato. I have been told to paint this mixture right over the letters and don't worry about it. The size will adhere right through the egg.

4.GOOD LUCK!

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"Paint with Passion"

Rob Larkham
The Bershire Brush
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com
413-354-0287

[This message has been edited by Rob Larkham (edited August 28, 2001).]

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Hey! I saw that same advice on the "Julia Childs" show!

Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

I have that problem a lot even with a baby powder barrier. Mayle I should use gloves, as my hand sweats and hand oils leave a film where the gold adhears. If you already have the problem, I use 3M clear polish (the one that you use to polish auto clears- not the rubbing compounds, unless they are super fine) to polish off the unwanted gold. Solvents like Mineral Spirits, will get in the gild and ruin them, but they work also. I think I will try the egg white effort next, but film from your hands will probably work through that also.

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@swbell.net

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

First you must use sandpaper to remove all the extra gold, if that doesn't work lightly sand blast he area around the le.............

AHA! you thought I was serious.

I use the egg method and it works just fine on enamel as well as latex paints.

Although I never use latex anymore I have done it with latex before.

That will save you ass next time, but you might want to try to remove the old gold with thinner around the letters. this should not marr the finish of the latex and will remove the gold from the paint.

But be carefull like bronzo said not to get the thinner in the letters or on the sized gold as it will remove the gold from the size as well, just takes longer and more effort.

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Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

[This message has been edited by Bob Rochon (edited August 28, 2001).]

Posted by Mike Clayton (Member # 723) on :

I have had this happen on freshly painted single stage enamel vehicles. I just use a wax and grease remover on a soft cloth, and lightly (and I mean lightly) wipe off the excess gold. Usually comes right up, and be sure NOT to soak the cloth, like the saying goes, " a little dab will do ya".

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Mike Clayton
MC Graphics
Barnegat, NJ
http://mcgraphics.visualnoise.com/
mike@visualnoise.com
AOL IM: mcgrafix

"Youth and enthusiasm is no match for old age and treachery!"

Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :

Philip,

Before trying extreme measures, try as suggested using a clean soft damp cloth AND cake BonAmi. August & humidity are also probably the cause and no matter how careful you are, ya still end up with problem.

I just did this couple weeks ago over latex painted surface but paint was drier. It's like you said. The gold won't rub off & seems forever stuck there. But use the soft cloth and BonAmi & comes off rather easily with little effort.

Good Luck,

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Bill Cosharek
Bill Cosharek Signs
N.Huntingdon,Pa

bcosharek@juno.com

Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :

we used a coat of philipps milk of magnesia around the gilded letters. tracy says it worked ok but was not thrilled about wiping all that stuff off when the gild was done.

tracy now prefers the talc method jeff describes. be sure to use pure talc. baby powder sometimes contains unwanted extras that can cause fisheyes in the size.

you can also take a pounce bag with talc in it and put a very fine dusting over surface gold requiring a clear coat. when you brush the clear over the talc, it turns clear. this will allow you to see where you have cleared and where you have not.

have a great one!

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Bruce Bowers
DrCAS
Signtech

"how great are His signs..."
Daniel 4:3

i am a proud supporter of this website!

Posted by Peter (Member # 1062) on :

I don't use latex, but with enamel backgrounds, it's best to let the sign sit for 3 days to really dry before sizing and leafing. But, there are still certain colors that seem to want to remain tacky forever - sometimes it has to do with the pigment and the vehicle not being mixed enough, I think.

Applying gold leaf takes patience and finesse. I have been in shops where the owner saw me applying leaf, and said, "Oh, that looks so easy, why am I paying you 25 bucks an hour when I could have you lettering something else. I'll let the $5/hour shop kid (or the secretary) do that..." And of course, the shop kid finds this boring, and tedious, and just wants to get it over with, so there is gold leaf stuck ALL OVER the background!!! He gets his hand oils all over the background; he sticks his fingers in the size and then touches the background, and the leaf sticks to all of this. So the boss ends up paying me anyway when I have to come back and cut in the entire background with a foam brush to cover the mess. FINESSE - you have to care! (I'm not saying this is what's happening in your situation - I'm just airing out one of my pet peeves) :-)

Also, experiment first before trying Rob's tip with the potato. We tried this once (anticipating that the leaf would be applied by a shop kid) and the potato juice left a murky, swirly residue on the sign that never came off!! Of course, the boss put the sign up, got his money, and told the store owner he was seeing things when the guy complained...and I'd better stop here because I can feel a Lenny story coming on, hahaha!!!!

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"Workin'hard...or hardly workin'?"

Peter Manzolillo
Jet Signs
Long Island, NY
jet22@mailcity.com

Posted by Eric Roche (Member # 1967) on :

Try masking tape or vinyl to lift gold just press down over gold rub & lift. We avoid this problem all together by masking
with a computer cut mask that we lay on before sizing just be careful to heat mask down so size dosn't leak under it likes to travel into cracks & seams it works very weel for us because we carve with a cnc router so the mask fits perfect. Before we had the router though we would use that mask to carve from as well and use it all the way through the guild. We spray everything to keep it thin so you dont have much of a ridge. in the past before using the mask and times when we cant if you take some high tack masking tape or even vinyl we have been able to lift the stuck gold from the surface with pretty good results.

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"Someday I'm gonna get a
real job, HEE HEE"
Signs Of Life
48 Carmen Hill Rd.
New Milford, Ct 06776

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

no better reply could be given than jeff lange's reply on the subject of gold sticking to the "background".

any moisture "attracts" the leaf.

dusting with talc keeps the leaf from sticking to a freshly painted background regardless of medium.(acrylic or oil based paints)
when laying gold leaf on any painted surface i allow several days before i size and lay any gold.

(just my opinion, it is reverse of what mr. draper said, gold will stick to a properly sized letter and less likely to stick to an acrylic latex background because of quicker air drying time)

yet is is very important to use the right size.
"homework" is necessary.

go to a letterheads meet near you and most likely there will be someone there that will know a heckuva lot more than i know about gilding.

all i have done is echo jeff's post.

good job jeff.

(see you at ducksoup mr. draper! LOL)

mark

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Mark Fair Signs
Montgomery, Alabama
http://www.markfair.com

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited August 29, 2001).]

Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :

Egg white, one per cup of water, poured through cheesecloth and flooded over the signface and allowed to dry, will form a great resist. In hot, humid weather, it should be removed ASAP(by flooding with clear water) or it may permanently bond with the paint surface.

I use talc at this time of year, but sparingly, as the edges of the letters tend to crawl if there is more than a whisper of powder on the sign.

Clear scotch tape works great for picking the gold off the paint.

Don't use too much pressure when applying patent gold, as this increases the likelihood that there will be gold stuck where you don't want it.

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Purcell Woodcarving & Signmaking
spurcell99@mediaone.net
Cape Cod, MA

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