This is topic Does anyone actually charge what the Signwriters Guide recommends? in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.


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Posted by Robb Lowe (Member # 2121) on :
 
Hi gang,

Just curious - does anyone actually charge the same as the Signwriter Guide says you should be able to?

Most of the people I know charge anywhere from 2-7 years in the past, and its still a lot in some cases. I'm sure someone out there will actually charge more, and I'd like to hear about that too.

I have to say, Mark's EstiMate program kicks the book in the pants for a way of determining a quote on the fly.

------------------
Robb Lowe
Hub City Graphics
Spartanburg, SC


 
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
 
I don't know of anyone that really does get those prices, would that we could - but a lot will say they do and cuss the rest of us. This comes up every so often here.

------------------
"If it isn't fun, why do it?"
Signmike@aol.com
Mike Languein
Doctor of Letters
BS, MS, PhD
___________________

You know what BS is, MS is More of the Same, and it's Piled Higher and Deeper here

[This message has been edited by Mike Languein (edited August 16, 2001).]
 

Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :
 
We keep the Signwriter's guide around, and generally use it to check prices AFTER we have developed a price some other way. One rule of thumb that some people use is 80% of the number in the guide.

Unfortunately the 80 percent rule is not consistent. Some products are 70%, others 90%. There really are a couple of products that we consistently sell for more than 100%, but not very many, and nothing we would want to advertise to the whole world about.

One good way to use the guide is for the casual call-ins. Drop a book number on them. If you get the job, fine, if you don't, fine.

I personally think every sign shop should spring the bucks for one of the computer estimators. There are two or three vendors who advertise at this site. You need look no further. Vic G

------------------
Victor Georgiou
AnchorBlanks.com
Designer Sign Blanks
Clipart CD's & FONTS
 

Posted by Adrienne Pereira (Member # 1046) on :
 
Boy, am I glad you brought this up!
I put together a bid for a vinyl job for one of my regular clients last night.....now, if I understand the pricing guide correctly, I will have to charge her over 1,200 bucks for this job, NOT including her logo which, since it's too big to do on my plotter, I will have to paint.......and that's charging WAY less than the guide says I should to INSTALL it too!!
There are 190 letters, average size is 6 inches (some 4, some 10) all white.
Maybe I misunderstood.....(her budget is 350-500, btw).
Adrienne

------------------
Adrienne Morgan
Splash Signs
"Wherever you go...there you are!"
www.splashsigns.com
"Rainkatt'on chat

Benicia, CA
707-550-4553
heyu@splashsigns.com
 

Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
 
I replied to a post here today about pricing a 30" cutout letter and I did suggest using the guide as a basis for pricing, but I really don't use it that often. Mainly for jobs like that which are kind of unusual and I don't have similar jobs to look back at for reference. 80% is probably closer to it on average. I have never seen Esimate, but hear good things about it. I need to get my prices up on installations. It seems like more unforseen problems arise installing than making signs.

------------------
Chuck Peterson Graphics
1860 Playa Riviera Dr.
Cardiff-by-the-Sea, Calif. 92007

 

Posted by Robert L. Downey (Member # 1806) on :
 
Great question. I think we all at one time or another have used the Signwriters Guide when pricing jobs. I know that I have left my fair share of money on the table over the years. Using it as a GUIDE, I have actually charged more than what is suggested in regards to pricing wall lettering. It takes skill in what we do and offer. There are so few people in my area that still hand letter that I believe I not only can but should demand a "higher compensation".
I certainly am on board with Mark's pricing software. Since we all have different requirements for our individual businesses, being able to adjust the program sure helps keep you from losing your shirt and also create a baseline standard for pricing in our industry. When it comes to pricing though, I think we all get to a point where we get so fed up with ourselves for selling ourselves short that we start selling that one job for $100 dollars instead of doing 10 jobs to get that same $100 dollars. Either that or find some other way to support our families. Fellow letterheads like Si, Glenn, Arty and Mark have all helped to encourage me personally in the pricing game. If we don't ask, we won't know if we will get the price we would like. At any rate.....thanks to a letterhead like Jack R. that started producing a guide so we could sit around and debate over whether or not the numbers are high or low and make enough$$$$$ to afford to travel to meets to share ideas and get a little more one shot under our finger nails!

------------------
Robert L. Downey
Tailboard Designs-custom signs & graphics
Argyle, Tx
972-965-4027

 

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
I've seen Robert's work, and it is top notch! He has no problem getting his price because of his quailty!

Glad to see you on the BB Robert!

------------------
Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

95% of all accidents occur immediately after the words "Hey...watch this."

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !
 

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
 
pricing guide ..in pensacola....hahahahahaha most of the people doin cheap signs here cant read one.....i quoated one 4x8 sign...no install for $250.. guy tells me he aint gona pay that for a sign and then have to install it...i went by there he got a new sign up on the building....and i didnt do it!
here they got there own set of prices...was asked to quote wall lettering out at the race track, told the new owner i did wall letterin at $4 a sq. ft.....and was out at the track one day visitin with sam sanphilpano from brimgham, the owner of the track told sam i was twice as high as the guy hes got doin the letterin now...i dont work for $2.00 a sq.ft.


------------------
joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

[This message has been edited by old paint (edited August 16, 2001).]
 

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
 
We all should be getting what the pricing guide says,

But the sign business has always been plagued by low balling morons. And I have been one at one time or another, but not deliberately.

Car prices double every ten years as a result of inflation, when is the last time your salary did?

I've been in the sign busines now for 10 years and a basic set of truck doors has been the same for 10 years.

What a deal for the customer!

Stupid stupid sign people we are.

" Oh I can't charge that" !!!

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"



 

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
 
as most of you, i use the pricing guide as a starting point.
i base my price on design, shop rate, overhead and advertising effectiveness.

the only way to get a profitable price for your work is to ask for it, in return you must show the client how your work compares to the rest.

i stress design, without thoughtful design you just have a board with letters on it.

------------------
Mark Fair Signs
Montgomery, Alabama
http://www.markfair.com/flash.html
 

Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
I use the y2k Signwriter's Guide.

Of what the guide lists, I charge:

Truck doors 56%

MDO 75%

Aluminum 75%

Sandblasted 85%

Windows 100%

Banners 70-75%

Seems to work pretty good so far.

------------------
"The most beautiful
thing we can experience
is the mysterious. It is
the source of all true
art and all science. He
to whom this emotion is
a stranger, who can no
longer pause to wonder
and stand rapt in awe,
is as good as dead: his
eyes are closed."

Albert Einstein

Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.

Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com
 

Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
 
I use it as it was inteded as a "GUIDE"
That is to say:my starting price!goes up or down from there as the job and customer will bare.
Hope this helps

------------------
PKing is
Pat King of
King Sign Design in
McCalla,Alabama
The Professor of
SIGNOLOGY


 

Posted by Kevin Landry (Member # 1352) on :
 
Started laughing the first time I saw it. It is ridiculous to even imagine getting anywhere near that here. I love the prices but even after educating the customer you end up with the same result.
These Sign Guide prices ain't happening. Just read Signcrafters magazine and see what some of these guys are getting for their signs. A 4 x12 on plywood, installed for $700 bucks.(May Signcrafter) It has to be worth at least $1500 but there is no way we are ever going to see that unless some people smarten up.
I have a guy in town here selling magnets for $30 US for two. What the heck is that?
Larger companys sell Cedar Sandblasted Signs for $50.00 US a square foot. What is that?
Do you think a newsletter to other sign companies might make a difference?

------------------
Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS
knlsigns@hfx.eastlink.ca
 

Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
 
If you are not always getting what the Signwriters price guide says, (me) Call Jack Rumph, the publisher and he will give you a good lecture. I know.

------------------
Chuck Peterson Graphics
1860 Playa Riviera Dr.
Cardiff-by-the-Sea, Calif. 92007

 

Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
Just a little something to add:

You have to use some common sense when using the price guide.

Yesterday I got one of those emergency orders from a very good customer. He wanted a tiny 10''x7'' aluminum sign with a small logo (which I already have on file) and 39 words of copy which ranged in size from about.15'' to .75''. After finishing the little sign in about an hour and twenty minutes (yea yea, I know I'm slow), I thought I would check the Guide.

According to the Y2K Signwriter's Guide, if I'm reading it right, that little dinky sign is worth $268.50 WITHOUT the logo. I know it had a whole paragraph of copy but it weren't worth THAT much. Anyway, I do find the guide very helpful most of the time.

------------------
"The most beautiful
thing we can experience
is the mysterious. It is
the source of all true
art and all science. He
to whom this emotion is
a stranger, who can no
longer pause to wonder
and stand rapt in awe,
is as good as dead: his
eyes are closed."

Albert Einstein

Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.

Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com
 

Posted by Jeremy Lewis (Member # 1539) on :
 
Well, Well, glad to see all the chat about the Signwriter's PRicing Guides!

For the record, I'm not Jack Rumph, but I am the computer consultant he hired to produce his website and more recently, turn his pricing guide into a set of spreadsheets for 'quotes on the fly'.

It is correct to use the guide as just that, a "guide" nowhere in the guide is it stated that these prices are written in stone. and to save you a lecture, read this next paragraph.

Being a visitor in Jacks shop and office for almost 5 years, I've heard all manner of sign pricing advice. One of the most common is that all 4x8 signs are not equal. Really! A Signs Now or Sign Pro would be hard pressed to get the Signwriters price for the sign, but a real sign shop would have a better chance if they understand layout, colors, and are creative with typestyles.

The only two 4x8 signs are equal is if they both have the exact same colors and the exact font. Don't start me on the fact that two signs can say the same words, but one gets read more than the other; its obvious!

Perhaps the real power of the Signwriter's guide is that it creates a starting point. After all, who can name all the lettering needed on a school bus? If you are going to get bargained down on price, why not start at a premium price that gives you room to move and still be able to eat?

Love it or hate it, the Signwriter's Pricing guide is a long published resource in the sign industry, and will be releasing software this month (see my other post for that news!)

[This message has been edited by Steve Shortreed (edited August 19, 2001).]
 

Posted by Jeremy Lewis (Member # 1539) on :
 
Sorry to add another post on this topic, but I forgot to address the prices from the pricing guide referenced in two other posts.

First:

Adrienne Morgan:
190 letters (vinyl I assume?)
6" tall Average
Pricing guides states $2.25 each
times 190 = $427.50 I don't know where you got $1200 from, but maybe you could tell me how you came up with the number using the guide?

Wayne Webb
Metal Sign 10"x7" 39 words.
Yes, the Signwriter's Price is that high, but only because of the enormous amount of copy. Vinyl letters as small as .15" are tremendously difficult to weed around, and mistakes are a real bummer.

While I don't agree right away with the signwriters charge applying to such a large volume of wording, I think we both agree that the extra wording is worth something.

This is a classsic example about how no pricing guide or system can address every single sign situation. A sign with 5 extra words should be charged the $8.00 extra per word, but with 39 words? Maybe you should modify your estimate to do the wording at your shop hourly rate. Your customer will appreciate the discount, you will get paid for the time it takes to weed 39 words .15" tall.

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[This message has been edited by Steve Shortreed (edited August 19, 2001).]
 

Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
 
this is sort of on topic, and sort of a reply to Wayne Webb's response. To be fair to the Guide, you need to use it right. Rather than pricing the metal sign as a "Metal Sign" (which is priced on an 8-word sign), Wayne could have used the "Menu Sign" as a guide, since its priced to include lots of words (up to 100 words for the "basic" menu, up to 12 square feet, and pre-coated .040 aluminum included). Designing a sign for a paragraph of text is different from a sign with just a few words. The menu sign with logo would price at $65. Since Wayne spent over an hour on the sign, $65 is a bit low, but an hour is a lot of time for a small sign like that.

I use the Guide because I'm pretty new to this, and I don't know how long something "ought" to take. Also, the estimating software isn't yet available for Macintosh computers (but i'm working on that...)

------------------
:: Scooter Marriner ::
:: Coyote Signs ::
:: San Francisco ::
:: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner
::


 

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
Duhhhhh! Do you mean that you have to use your common sense when using the Price guide?
If you use the right catagory and a little common sense...the Price Guide is a very good starting point! If you are in a rural economically depressed area, discount from the suggested price; if in a central, high rent area, you might even add to the suggested price.
After all...it's called a "guide" NOT a "Bible" !!!

------------------
Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

95% of all accidents occur immediately after the words "Hey...watch this."

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !
 

Posted by Adrienne Pereira (Member # 1046) on :
 
OK....that was adding in the design time, prep time (weed n mask) and installation. If I understand it right, that part is a lot more than the actual letters. Well.....we settled for $570 for the whole deal...which I am satisfied with as she is a good client and friend.
On the other hand, when it comes to mural work, I have it figured out fairly simple: $500-$700 per day (depending on difficulty) plus expenses, half of the estimated job upfront, balance due apon compleation.
I've done very little vinyl up till now, but the more I do the better I will get the hang of using the pricing guide.
Good thread, btw!
A

------------------
Adrienne Morgan
Splash Signs
"Wherever you go...there you are!"
www.splashsigns.com
"Rainkatt'on chat

Benicia, CA
707-550-4553
heyu@splashsigns.com
 

Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
Jeremy and Si, Here are a few excerpts from my two previous posts:

quote:
......ranged in size from about.15'' to .75''
....Careful layout and prioritized copy.


quote:
I use the y2k Signwriter's Guide.
Of what the guide lists, I charge: Truck,doors 56%,MDO 75%,Aluminum 75%,Sandblasted 85%,Windows 100%,Banners 70-75%. Seems to work pretty good so far.
......I use it as a GUIDE because it is helpful but know that I can't charge 100% of what it lists because it would be absolutely impossible to do in my economically depressed region; A federally declared HUBZone.

quote:
......10''x7'' aluminum sign with a small logo........$268.50 WITHOUT the logo........I do find the guide very helpful most of the time.
Common sense: Ain't no 10''x7'' aluminum sign worth 268 bucks even with gold leaf on it


Do I still use the GUIDE? Yep!

Was I low-rating "The Guide"? No Way, just stating an observation.

You have to ask yourself though: Would you charge your good customer $268 for a little 10''x7', .040 hour and twenty minute aluminum sign and at the same time expect him not to laugh in your face(and rightfully so)?

BTW I charged my hourly shop rate for the sign. Seemed fair to me.

Thanks Scooter, I'll check out that Menu category when I get back to the shop Monday.

------------------
"The most beautiful
thing we can experience
is the mysterious. It is
the source of all true
art and all science. He
to whom this emotion is
a stranger, who can no
longer pause to wonder
and stand rapt in awe,
is as good as dead: his
eyes are closed."

Albert Einstein

Failure to advertise is a lot like blinking in the dark. Nobody, but you, knows what you're doing.

Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
Chipley, FL
850.638.9329
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

[This message has been edited by Wayne Webb (edited August 19, 2001).]
 

Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
 
Back in Joisey, when I was involved with making "real" signs, the pricing guide was very accurate, if not a little low sometimes.
Of course the cost of living is higher than in most places.
Getting the suggested price & higher was not uncommon. When quoting $125 + a sq. ft. for carved gold leaf, $35 a ft for MDO still sounds like a bargain.
Cam summed it up best. We're not selling a commodity, we're selling advertising. Advertising has value.
Just this morning there was a story on tv about nascar sponsorship advertising. You too can have your name on a top ranked nascar...for about $17 million dollars. If that's not in your budget, a small decal on the post to the right of the drivers door is only $1 million for the whole season.
Think about it.
Havin' fun,
Checkers

------------------
a.k.a. Brian Born
Harrisburg, Pa
717.652.9073
members.home.net/sign-it/
This isn't Burger King, you can't have it your way.
 

Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
 
Why is it that the sign industry requires a pricing guide?? Every other business out there has to do a cost study to set their pricing, which includes all of their overhead (rent, utilities, wear on equipment, postage, publications, phone bill, office supplies, miscellaneous equipment costs, vehicle, maintenance, ad-nauseam)then a profit margin is figured in to pay the salary of the owner, as well as business expansion. I have an hourly shop rate, a mark up on materials, and I know how much cash flow I need a week just to stay in business. Do it any other way, and it's just a shot in the dark. Sad part is, I still feel I need to charge more to make a decent living.

------------------
Tim Whitcher
Quality Signs & Design
107 E Adrian St
Blissfield, MI 49228
qualitysigns@cass.net

[This message has been edited by Tim Whitcher (edited August 19, 2001).]
 

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 
Actually, many businesses use a pricing guide. The difference is that they use them, we don't.

That said, I'd like to suggest everyone get a book titled "Pricing for Profits." Its written for textile screen printers, but could just have been easily been written for sign makers too. At the very least, everyone should read the first chapter - Estimating and Pricing Theory.

The following was written by Mark Goodridge, editor of Screenplay magazine...

The Eight Rules of Estimating & Pricing

1) Estimating & pricing are not math problems. They are exercises in management and business judgement.

2) You must know what your expenses are.

3) You must understand the difference between markup and profit.

4) You must mark up every expense.

5) The more exactly you can estimate any expense, the lower you can set its markup, if you want to. The less exactly you can estimate any expense, the higher you should set its markup.

6) The customer must pay for everything.

7) The point of a job cost estimating system is not to win every job you quote on. Its to make a profit on every job.

8) Never forget: It's your money were talking about here.


Its an excellent book and can be purchased from ST Publications (Signs of the Times).

------------------
Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics

Personal > walldog@nc.rr.com
Business > creativesigns@bbnp.com

[This message has been edited by Glenn Taylor (edited August 19, 2001).]
 

Posted by Kevin Landry (Member # 1352) on :
 
Glenn you hit that right on the head. The customer has to pay for everything or you aren't going to make it.

------------------
Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS
knlsigns@hfx.eastlink.ca
 

Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
 
No other industry that I know of uses a "pricing guide". They use estimating programs or sheets that factor in all costs involved, but no generic pricing guide. It was an electrical sign contractor who woke me up when I pulled out that guide many years ago. "Here, let me show you how to develop an accurate price". He sat me down and ran the numbers. If weren't for him, I don't think I'd still be in business. Thanks, Ed!

------------------
Tim Whitcher
Quality Signs & Design
107 E Adrian St
Blissfield, MI 49228
qualitysigns@cass.net
 



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