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Sharon Bigler
A Good Sign
Chambersburg, PA
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Steve Shortreed
144 Hill St., E.
Fergus, Ontario
Canada N1M 1G9
519-787-2673
steve@letterhead.com
ICQ 316338
www.letterhead.com/profiles/shortreed/
I've already heard from Jim (very nice man) on another BB but I really want to hear from the shop owners who actually own one and are using it every day.
I'd also like to see one in action as well as the Edge so I guess I'm going to have to do some traveling. Woo hoo - ROAD TRIP!
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Sharon Bigler
A Good Sign
Chambersburg, PA
Hey Brian....you out there?
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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
Personal > walldog@nc.rr.com
Business > creativesigns@bbnp.com
I can put you in touch with a number of DuraChrome/DC2 users if you'd like ... one or more of whom you may be able to visit by car.
I'll be back in my office on Tuesday (800.526.7778 x 106) if that would be of interest.
Thanks!
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
Well anyway, the Durachrome is awesome! I have been using it for all sorts of goodies and subbing out work to local shops and a few right here. I am very impressed with the quality of these machines (the Durachrome and the Dura sign cutter) It makes printing and contours so easy once you understand the proccess. If you have any specific questions feel free to lay em out here or e-mail me. I have never felt the need to speak well of a company like this before but the amchines and support just forced me to... I dont even get paid for this, go figure.
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Brian Stoddard
Expressions Signs
2621 244th Ave NE
Sammamish WA 98074
brian@thesignzone.com
www.thesignzone.com
425-898-9817
Large format Thermal printing and cutting
Why would I want the durachrome over a EDGE2 or inkjet?
What does the DC2 offer me over the EDGE2 or inkjet besides width?
How does the cost factor work out? (initial cost of equipment AND consumables down the road).
thanks!
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Robb Lowe
Hub City Graphics
Spartanburg, SC
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Sharon Bigler
A Good Sign
Chambersburg, PA
But first, BESIDES WIDTH!? That's a fairly major "besides" considering DuraChrome and DC2 are both 323% wider than the EDGE and EDGE/2 (50-inch image width vs 11.8). But I'll give you that, for now.
Colossal Advantage #1: DuraChrome and DC2 automatically change up to 8 colors. It's a virtually labor-free device. So, while EDGE users are manually changing ribbons (or forgetting to and pissing off their co-workers), Summa users are free to do their work and increase their company profits.
Colossal Advantage #2: DuraChrome and DC2 print in a single direction, and have higher head pressure. So, the vinyl doesn't go back and forth collecting dust and static that cause image flaws. And minor vinyl flaws won't affect the image either, thanks to the increased head pressure. Thus, while EDGE users are filling in image flaws with Sharpies, Summa users are free to do their work and increase their company profits.
Colossal Advantage #3: Summa equipment is open architecture. You'll never be held hostage to our technology. That gives our customers more consumer choice. And it keeps us on our toes. Thus, we're a more innovative company.
Colossal Advantage #4: Summa consumable prices are well below the cost of Gerber consumables, based on US list prices. Process ribbons (a major cost componenet) for example are about 30% less. So Summa users are more profitable on every job, even before you consider the labor savings.
Robb, a technology that's about 6 years newer is bound to have significant advantages, such as a self-cleaning print head, faster RIP software, better color registration, and the like. So, it should really come as no surprise that DuraChrome and DC2 far surpass the EDGE, even before you consider their huge size advantage.
Thanks for giving me a soapbox to stand on
Best Regards,
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
thanks for the input. Here are some additional thoughts.
Size, auto-color changes and open architecture - you win. I've always hated the fact that Gerber held the world hostage to its inflated prices and 'my way or the highway' way of doing business.
Does the DC2 interface as well with your SummaPro cutters equipped with OPOS, as say the Edge does with the Envision 375? Accuracy, tracking and speed are the main concerns here. Does the OPOS only work in the initial lineup, or does it make on-the-fly-adjustments?
Now for the biggie... sell me on thermal versus inkjet. With today's better-than-ever GO and GS inks, they seem more versatile than the thermal printers. What about durability? The ColorCamm print isnt as sturdy as a Edge print (so they say..), hows' the Durachrome's durability? pressure washer safe?
Can you give us some cost per square inch and per square foot of resin print?
Is the durachome a postscript level 3 machine on its own, or does it need an external RIP?
I'm sure there are more as time goes by, but those are major concerns for now. Thanks for your efforts and time!
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Robb Lowe
Hub City Graphics
Spartanburg, SC
A) Cost of foil per sq. ft.
B) Printing speed per sq. ft.
Now to your points....
CA#1: Yep, being able to automatically change foils is a plus. Question: What is the maximum number of colors you can print? (by the way, the Edge doesn't let you forget 
)
CA#2: Higher head pressure. Doesn't that mean that the printhead will wear out faster?
CA#3: Can't argue with you on that. However, I suspect that will be changing soon.
CA#4: Currently, some Gerber distributors are selling the Gerber foils for 20% below MSRP. Also, ZeroNine and Duracoat ribbons are available from 30-50% less than Gerber's MSRP. That said, does Summa offer the same identical warranty as Gerber for its foils?
Some of my own questions....
1) Does the DC2 allow different width vinyls? Handling 48" rolls can all the time can be a bit of a pain.
2) Everyone can handle full-color (cmyk). How many spot colors does Summa have available.
3) Can DC2 print on 10 mil. PVC and Lexan?
4) Can the DC2 be used to generate film positives?
5) Are there 3rd party brands of foil available (i.e. - ZeroNine and Duracoat)?
6) Is it necessary to purchase the foils for the DC2 directly from Summa, or is there a nearby distributor? (I live in North Carolina)
7) Since the printhead on the DC2 is 4" wide, it must travel 36" to print a 12"x12" area. And, since the DC2 puts down more pressure, wouldn't that mean the likelyhood that the printhead would wear out faster than on the Edge? If so, what are the costs involved in replacing the printhead?
8) Can the pressure be adjusted by the user so as to help extend the life of the printhead? No since in using more pressure than is necessary.
9) Does the DC2 automatically adjust the pressure and print speed acording the the substrate that is being printed on?
Not trying to debate you on which is better. What I'm interested in are the real numbers that a person must consider before making any purchase be it Fargo, Roland, Gerber or Summa.
------------------
Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
Personal > walldog@nc.rr.com
Business > creativesigns@bbnp.com
Wow; good questions! You've given this some thought.
Re: Contour Cutting
Yes, an OPOS-equipped SummaSign Pro is ideal, becuase it's far more accurate than manual (pen-down, alignment loupe, etc.) systems. But no, we don't make on-the-fly adjustments, if I understand what you mean by that. Since our cutters track accurately, we don't require a correction system. And this is more than marketing hype; it's critical to printing or cutting accuracy. If on-the-fly adjustments worked, MAXX would have come to market 2 years ago. They don't work, which is why we focus so heavily on material tracking accuracy. Ask any Summa user, our equipment REALLY tracks.
Re: Thermal Resin vs. Inkjet
True; inkjet has come a long way. But inkjet receptive materials are super expensive, and need lamination to come anywhere close to Thermal Resin. Solvent printers print onto anything (virtually), but they also need lamination in most cases. The guys selling the printers boast no lamination needed, but the folks who sell the output are sure as heck laminating the output. Not that laminating is a bad thing (really, I like lamination ... for more than just durability). But, thermal transfer is the only product that really needs no lamination, and it has close to 10 years of real world proving behind it.
Also, my understanding is that We (Summa) and Gerber have the virtually the same outdoor life, and that Roland's is slightly less. The theory is that Roland ribbons are a bit thinner so they can twist more onto the smaller rolls. But I'm spreading rumors here ... I'll be safe and say they're equivalent to one another.
Pressure wash? Sure; so long as it isn't an acid wash.
Re: Cost Per Foot
Process colors are $150 per 2-roll pack. Each pack prints a minimum of 316 square feet. So, a 3-color process image is $1.43 sq/ft, plus vinyl. A 4-color process image is $1.92, plus vinyl. This doesn't take into account ribbon-saving (we have it), but I advise our customers to price their work based on 100% coverage. This is worst case.
Our approved vinyls vary in price. Premium 3M is the high end, at $0.95 a sq/ft (printable area ... not the whole roll). Calendered with a permanent adhesive is the low end, at $0.43 (ditto).
Sooooo, a 3-color process photo on Intermediate vinyl is $1.86 a square foot. A 4-color process image on Premium 3M is $2.87. And there are many variables in between. Or many more expensive options, if combining metallic foils, or multiple spot colors, etc.
Re: RIPs
Our is external, but it's free (including updates). We had an internal PostScript RIP in our older SummaChrome printer. But that proved pretty slow, since it couldn't evlove as computers got faster, memory got cheaper, etc. Nor could it be updated. External RIPs are the way to go, and ours is blazing fast, PostScript Level 3, and it has unique features that are only possible with an 8-color thermal resin printer. Plus it's open architecture, so most of our clients use CorelDRAW and Photoshop to design their images.
All for now. Thanks again for the soapbox.
Best Regards,
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
Wow; you've got some questions too! Are you finally considering a Summa?
In summary, EDGE 2 prints faster, assuming it's one-color or you're standing over the unit. We print unattended with up to 8 colors, even when you're at lunch, sleeping, or posting messages on Letterville. Standing over the printer, you can print with as many colors as you wish.
Shoot me a copy of Gerber's warranty, and I'll do a compare and contrast. Truely, I've never seen it. I only get end-user interpretations.
Okay ...
1) Does the DC2 allow different width vinyls? Handling 48" rolls can all the time can be a bit of a pain.
Yep; anything from 12 to 54 inches. Our customers feel that panelling narrow width images is a pain. I guess there's 2 sides to every coin.
2) Everyone can handle full-color (cmyk). How many spot colors does Summa have available.
19 currently. We'll add more as demand increases.
3) Can DC2 print on 10 mil. PVC and Lexan?
Yes, yes and no. We've done some 30 mil clear PVC, for example. I don't know of anyone who's printed on Lexan, although it's pretty easy to get EDGE-ready materials into a DuraChrome. Send me some and I'll print you a test.
4) Can the DC2 be used to generate film positives?
Sure
5) Are there 3rd party brands of foil available (i.e. - ZeroNine and Duracoat)?
Yes ... at half the price, and one-third the quality. I'd argue they don't make sense.
6) Is it necessary to purchase the foils for the DC2 directly from Summa, or is there a nearby distributor? (I live in North Carolina)
We have an office in Saugus, MA and dealers in the East. Plus we have a round-the-clock e-commerce website.
7) Since the printhead on the DC2 is 4" wide, it must travel 36" to print a 12"x12" area. And, since the DC2 puts down more pressure, wouldn't that mean the likelyhood that the printhead would wear out faster than on the Edge? If so, what are the costs involved in replacing the printhead?
Yes on the more print distance. No on the head pressure. Firing hotter and more frequently wears the head out faster. Pressure is a non-issue. EDGE should last longer than EDGE 2. EDGE 2 should last longer than DuraChrome / MAXX (if). Matan has us all beat. Also, it's worth noting that DuraChome can print a 12" x 12" image without paneling.
8) Can the pressure be adjusted by the user so as to help extend the life of the printhead? No since in using more pressure than is necessary.
Nope. But, that wouldn't extend the head life. They can adjust energy levels, which increases life at the expense of quality. Our customers -- whom I've visited -- seem to aim for quality.
9) Does the DC2 automatically adjust the pressure and print speed acording the the substrate that is being printed on?
Nope. I think this must be an EDGE issue. Speed and pressure never need adjusting on our equipment.
Not debating? Man; you're taking all the fun out of this.
Regards,
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
I like the fact that Summa has real people that actually interact with their machines. Roland & Gerber are so big, you have to jump thru hoops to get somewhere within their matrix. That is worth a few bucks to me.
A few, not $50k.
Now then...
Whats the expected life of the print head?
Whats the replacement warranty? full, pro-rated, or ?
is it something that can be done in the field, or something only done by $$$$ technicians?
One more thing.. can the 1400 pro with OPOS do the job as well as the full-featured Durasign, or is the Durasign a must-have piece of the puzzle?
thanks Jim - you've given us all something to think about.
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Robb Lowe
Hub City Graphics
Spartanburg, SC
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Howard Keiper
Sales Mgr., Graphtec
Benicia, Ca.
keip@pacbell.net
Robb, in re: the head cost. Ahhhh, I really don't know. I beg DuraChrome users to jump in here with details. Under warranty, they're zip. Out of warranty I'll guess they're round about 2 grand (pure guessing, our service folks have gone home ... more in the manana). Also, I don't have any MTBFs handy. That too will need to wait till morning.
When I know you'll know.
Thanks again gents,
Jim
PS: Robb, 50K is the old price. DuraChrome is 40K; DC2 is 45K.
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
Sorry man. It's getting late in the day.
In re: the 1400 w/OPOS vs. DuraSign. Nope; no difference whatsoever (color of the paint not withstanding). DuraSign is a fully-optioned SummaSign Pro 1400 that's been color-matched to the DuraChrome and Summa DC2.
Also, yes, the head is field upgradable, by the user. If it needs replacing the FedEx guy can be there the next morning.
Talk to ya in the AM.
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
[This message has been edited by Jim Doggett (edited August 14, 2001).]
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Scott Patterson
Creative Signs & Graphics
Lily, KY
kscott98@msn.com
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with Excellence!
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Scott Patterson
Creative Signs & Graphics
Lily, KY
kscott98@msn.com
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who did it. Autograph your work with Excellence!
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a.k.a. Brian Born
Harrisburg, Pa
717.652.9073
members.home.net/sign-it/
This isn't Burger King, you can't have it your way.
No sweat contouring, even if the material isn't loaded straight. SummaCut plotters have an X-Y axis alignment routine that determines the point-of-origin and media rotation. This is the same method virtually all other plotters use to contour cut printed vinyl graphics.
SummaSign Pro and DuraSign cutters utilize our OPOS alignment system, which is the first and only computer controlled auto-alignment method. And because it also compensates for variations in scale (in addition to position and rotation), it's supremely accurate ... even more so than pin-feed cutters.
With a DuraChrome or Summa DC2, I'd advise trading your SummaCut D60 in on a DuraSign. However, you could contour cut materials up to 30 inches wide on the D60 -- and not have to worry about loading the media absolutely straight.
More on the printhead tomorrow ... after I ask our service folks. I'll also address the USB issue at that time.
Best Regards,
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
The no brainer for me was the width coupled with the operating cost on the prints. I do a lot of box trucks and size does matter for me. The extra cost of the machine over the Edge is not a big deal to me, its the operating cost that really matters.
The open architecture is such a winner, all I need is an .eps file. That gives me the flexibilty to output from Corel, Photoshop, illustrator, etc. which is a big plus!
Contour cutting - very, very slick. I have yet to mess up a print (ok, I mean after I screwed up a few learning how it works!) Using CoCut to set registration marks and printing is so incredibly easy and accurate.
Another biggie is the unattended printing, its a beautiful thing to go to bed, wake up in the morning and have made $$$$ while you slept! Not only does it swap out the resins but the front take up reel keeps everything nice and tidy.
OK now somethings that are a little bit of a pain... I dont know about how the MAXX will work for switching between roll goods so I cant really compare - but when going from one size or material to another you need to have the materail perfectly aligned and then run a printhead advancment test and make the proper adjustments - not the worst thing in the world but so far the most irritating thing I have found about the Durachrome.
Aside from that I have had great support from the folks over at Summa, in fact the best I have experienced on any product yet!
Let me know how those tests come for printing on the PVC and Lexan Jim, I would be very interested in that!
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Brian Stoddard
Expressions Signs
2621 244th Ave NE
Sammamish WA 98074
brian@thesignzone.com
www.thesignzone.com
425-898-9817
Large format Thermal printing and cutting
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1627707621
If you're in Michigan at least.
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Robb Lowe
Hub City Graphics
Spartanburg, SC
Sorry for not following up yesterday ... things got a bit hairy around the office.
OK, here's what I've learned in re: printheads. The replacement price is $2490, and they're guaranteed for one year. Here's what our service guy sent me:
"A DuraChrome printhead is warranted initially for one year from date of purchase and is expected to print at least 1000 - 24?
X 36? three-color process (CMY) images without failure."
We have folks who've been running heads for over two years, and others who've need warranty replacemnts within a few months. As an officer of Summa, I can't make any warranties express or implied with regard to ... you know, I'm legally bound. But, I think if you were to speak with DuraChrome users, they'd tell you the printheads last a long time, and when they don't that we're pretty service oriented.
Thanks for your patience in waiting for this info.
Best Regards,
Jim
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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.
Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com
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For what it's worth
Bob Gilliland
The InKnowVative Group
Harrisburg, PA
717.564.7650
bgilliland@inknowvativegroup.com
"People who want milk shouldn't sit on a stool
in the middle of a field in the hopes that a
cow will back up to them"
Curtis Grant
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Greg Gulliford
aka MetroDude
Metro Signs and Banners
1403 N. Greene St. #1
Spokane, WA 99202
509-536-9452
