I guess I am no good at this stuff. Everytime I try to air brush on vinyl I end up with a rough finish. I must be doing something wrong. Here is the method I use: 1.Cut vinyl. 2.Put vinyl in frig. to let vinyl shrink. 3.Rub with green scouring pad. 4.Airbrush using auto air paint. Then all I have is a very rough surface. What am I doing wrong? I paint light coats of paint and then seal with frog juice. HELP ME PLEASE.
Cynthia, the amount you "thin" paint for spraying, and the "material adjustment" on the gun has "everything" to do with the texture of finished product.
Aside from those two areas, you may not be applying a wet enough coat(realizing a wet coat on vinyl can cause damage) I start with a well reduced (light coat), let tac, then add two more "medium coats(dry to tac in between). Sometimes the brand of vinyl can play a role, or too much "scratch pad".
Don't forget, before spraying begins, wipe with Rapid Prep and cheap paper towell.
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
Cynnnnnthiahhh! You're putting out too much paint at one time. It's beading up, isn't it. Take your time. Do three light coats. Airbrush color application can be deceptive. Are you also mixing in catalyst and BondAll in your paint? You have to do that, Cynthia. Take your time. Coat it slowly and evenly. You can do this.
Forgot to ask........what's the airbrush and which tip?
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
[This message has been edited by pierre (edited August 06, 2001).]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I thought "Auto Air" was a latex paint?
If it is latex then I wouldn't be applying 3 light coats, I'd be spraying a full wet coat first time. Light coats will just end up giving you a "dusty" "sandpaperlike finish". Latex isn't gonna do any bad things to vinyl.
If it IS an enamel or urethane or lacquer based paint, then do as suggested above. Roger is correct, reducing the paint to the recommended amount is necessary for good flow.
Also, in adition to cleaning the vinyl with a prep solution be sure to wipe it with a "Tac Cloth" to get rid of any leftover dust.
Finally, Is the roughness you are describing one of the four following?
A texture similar to the surface of an orange (pebbely)? A texture like sandpaper (an even, fine grittiness)?? A texture that looks like it has a bunch of dirt captured in the paint (lumps here and there)? A texture that looks like the sanding marks from the scour pad have "risen"?
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
Posted by Cis Pack (Member # 2011) on :
It does have a sand paper finish. By the way Roger, I do use your products but can't get Rapidprep so I use application fluid. If any thing I think my coats are too thin. I do add the catalist and bond all. The brush I use is a Iwata ecilipse. Could I be using do much air pressure? 45lbs. I really like do these effects but I must find what I am doing wrong. Thanks for the questions and thoughts about what to do.
DO NOT shoot a heavy coat of AutoAir! You WILL be sorry!
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Neat! The one day I set aside to learn how to paint vinyl with auto-air, a question pertaining to this pops up. Thinning the auto air (yes, they are waterbased) came up, so I am going to try that here. The vinyl I have been painting today came out cool, but I have a similar issue with my projects: there is a noticeable texture to all of my work. I am going to try thinning and then report back here.
-shane
By the way, I tried the 'water drops' effect. It came out 'okay' on my first try, but i think i need to have the vinyl sit much flatter, as a few of the water droplets ran out of the clear coat (frog juice), and didn't end up looking so hot.
I forgot. The paint is latex. I think I really am not doing the coats heavy enough. But I will try everything you suggest. I have no trouble with t-shirts or wood. Just that &*?@ vinyl. Thanks again.
Mark the Shark's video, specific to Auto-Air, uses your steps in a different order. 1. Clean vinyl 2. Rough with ScotchBrite 3. Cut 4. Refrigerate 5. Spray several thin coats 6. Weed and Apply.
I think you're going to have some rough texture. I've gotten the same results when spraying or sponging AutoAir on vinyl everytime.
[This message has been edited by Santo (edited August 06, 2001).]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Cynthia...Since you are adding catalyst the paint must be either an enamel or a urethane. If you are getting a "sandpapery" finish you are not reducing the paint enough to allow it to "flow out", and might also not be using enuogh pressure to atomize it properly. Something to think about also is the fact that 45 PSI at the regulator is NOT 45 PSI at the airbrush...There is a phenomonen called "line drop". The drag on the air caused by the walls of the piping or hoses that feed the airbrush will cause the PSI to drop. The longer the distance from the regulator to the actual airbrush the lower the pressure.
In my shop I have piped airlines...The distance from the regulator to my airbrush is probably about 75-100 ft. I have to have my regulator set at about 75 PSI to get a good atomization from the airbrush.
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
75lb at the airbrush?!? Good grief, Davey! I don't use 75 on my Iwata RG2, let alone my finer brushes! All I can say is I've been photo retouching for 30 years now, and I've never heard of these kinds of pressures on an airbrush. I use 40 to 50 on my big Binks and DeVilbiss guns.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Pierre..I am not familiar with "Auto Air" personally. BUT if it is a latex paint and it is applied with a heavy coat what does it do to the vinyl and what is in it that makes it do whatever it does.
Personally, I use automotive Basecoat/clearcoat and it results in a finish that is the same as a new automobile.
I am seriously interested in finding out about this Auto Air and why it would be more dangerous to vinyl than basecoat/clearcoat?
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I do a fair deal of spraying on vinyl with my Iwata Eclipse airbrush. My procedure is scuff the vinyl with a scratch pad, clean with alcohol, add catalyst and bondall to the paint which is Deka Sign air or Creatix Auto. 20 to 40lbs. of pressure is all I ever use and it takes a couple of passes to do the job. This way I get a fine mist gradation on my work. After that, use the clear coat of your choice.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
Hey, Davey. AutoAir is generally used for automotive airbrush illustrating. It really flows better than the standard Deka. You can mix in the medium for thinning, or use water, but I prefer the medium. Dave W. and i have similar proceedures for airbrushing vinyl film. My daughter uses the same airbrush, as a matter of fact. Can't beat Iwatas, unless it's a Tower, but they haven't made those incredible solid brass airbrushes since 1959. I'm fortunate enough to have one. Anyhoo...........try AutoAir. Great schtuff.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
I'm with Pierre on that one, 15 to 25 lbs. of preasure on air brush should atomize all types of paint(when reduced properly).
I would never attempt to "spray" any type of paint thru any type of gun that is not the "right' viscosity,(weather reduced with thinners,water,hardners,whatever).
Viscosity and "material adjustment, fan adjustment, and gettin used to LAYIN IT DOWN are how you make a spray finish smooth as silk", lots of things determine weather you put it on "wet" or "fog" or "dry", then thers those times when you use a combination of ALL of the above.
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
The timing of this subject couldn't be better. I have used Auto-Air Sign & Auto paint for about three years, and I can make it work, but I have some questions about it. 1. Is it absolutely necessary to use the catalyst and bond-all in it? 2. If it is necessary can the additives be put in the original bottle, and will the remainder do something strange, as in thicken and be unusable the next time you go to use it? 3. Where does frog juice figure into this with those of you who use auto-air more often than I do? My own method has been the following: Scuff before cutting, wipe with dry paper towel, Frog juice, heat set, air brush without additives, Frog juice again, heat set again, weed, apply dry, soak transfer tape,remove tape. I only had one instance of paint lift in a very small patch, and that was dry-apply, dry removal of transfer tape. Wetting the tape seemed to take care of lift. Air pressure 40 lbs. max at the regulator. I have several trucks for the same people out there, the oldest job about three years now, and so far they seem to be holding up well. Others thoughts and opinions please?
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Thanks for the info Pierre...I think you mis read my statement..I use 75 PSI at the regulator..by the time the air gets thru the lines to the actual airbrush it is only about 50 psi....And as Roger says...it takes practice to use any kind of spray equipment. I have only been spraying paint fer 35 years so I am not an expert yet but I do know that there is more than one adjustment that has to be made to achieve the desired result.
I sprayed up some dimensional lettering yesterday and also did some blends on vinyl today...I'll take a couple of pics tomorrow and post em. No orange peel, no sandpaper, no dust! I love it when things go right! (and they don't always go right!}
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
[This message has been edited by Dave Grundy (edited August 06, 2001).]
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Dave, my son (years ago) used to watch me paint , then he would say "geeez anyone can be a Journeyman painter". Then I would say " the difference is years of experience,so when something goes wrong, a Journeyman knows how to take care of it".
I don't think I have ever seen the "perfect job" And I know I never did one !!
Roger (shoot em close)
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Oh yeah, But I did get a few trophies for "custom paint" One of em from "The Oakland Roadster Show" Late 70s.
Roger(just a braggin on)
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Bill Piper (Member # 23) on :
I have been using Deka and Createx (AutoAir) for quite a while. The process I use is pretty simillar to others.
I cut the vinyl, use scratchbrite, wipe with alcohol, let air dry. Then I mix in Bondall land the catalyst. I airbrush using several light coats..I don't refrigerate. after the paint is dry, I use Krylon Clear coat and spray several light coats. after the clear dries, I weed and let set usually overnight before I apply.
I usually spray vinyl about 35 psi and give plenty of time to dry between steps.
aka "wetpainter"
------------------ Bill Piper Bill's Signs & Graphics PO Box 14526 Ft Worth TX 76117
A PROUD supporter of this Great site.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Never tried any of the auto air but have done a good bit of airbrushed vinyl. I either use vinyl ink or Krlon sprayed into a dixie cup. To get a better blend sometimes I'll spray a coat of clear on first this allows working wet on wet. Like everything else airbrushing vinyl takes a little practice. My son does a lot of Krylon fades on race car stuff using just the rattle cans. I've seen him do some really nice smooth three color fades on four inch letters using rattle cans. Me, I've got to revert to the airbrush on stuff that small.
------------------ George Perkins Millington,TN. goatwell@ionictech.com
"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"
the few times ive tried the bond-all and cat. mix with createx it has never worked, not to mention the stuff sets in the bottle over time. each time i go to use it i have to buy another bottle (which shows how often i dont use it) after a few attempts i gave up i have no problems with paint stickin to the vinyl on its own though i dont often scuff it, cept when its a large area basic lazyness has taught me many things over the years. i cut the stuff put the stuff up on a wall tac rag it paint tac rag again clear (if its not going on a sign) weed i always give the vinyl as much time as i can for the clear to cure before using appo tape stick!
i used createx for a long time untill an australian company came up with the same thing (sorta) viponds taut-air is great the colours are strong and mix perfectly with the createx pearls. i put a litte blue chameleon into black for an extra kick, and gold chameleon in red has a real nice glow
like dave i run my air up higher than most at the regulator, i figure whatever works for you is right! i only use iwata brushes... the custom micron is my fav for tight lines n stuff
as a side note i get the funny'est looks from 'real' spray painters when i dont follow the laws of science and mix my layers. devo just scratches his head when i get away with doing stuff that shouldnt work, but does. just recently i painted our shop ute (again) did an acrylic lacquer base of black to metalic gold blend... then candy red over. on top of this i used the viponds & createx mixed paints to do the artwork, over that went the 2pac clear. now we all know that mixing your mediums is a recipe for diaster, but it worked... lazyness at its best!
cheers gail
------------------ on chat T2
Gail & Dave NSW Australia
taurus@kooee.com.au
sumtimes ya just gota!
Posted by R T Thomas (Member # 355) on :
MY kinda topic, I have been airbrushing vinyl for years and I use Aqua Flow acrylics. I've never had a failure. I don't put anything other than distilled water (to thin) in it. I scuff the vinyl, wipe down with alcohol, cut, airbrush, frogjuice and then weed. I use a heat gun in between coats to set the paint, then to help dry the Frogjuice. I can paint, weed and apply within 20 minutes. And Pierre, I also use at least 65 lbs of pressure and sometimes have been known to use 85 according to the job. I AM not alone in this by the way. I know numerous others that use more. It's all in what you get used to. You have to be real fast to paint at 65-85 lbs. When you airbrush t-shirts for a living for as long as I did you have to be fast. Time is defintely money in that biz. Cynthia, I hope this helps a bit. If I can help you further email me. See ya guys, have a nice day R.T.
------------------ R.T.Thomas,AirDesigns/Sign And Airbrush Studio rtart1@earthlink.net 1209B Corinne St. Hattiesburg,MS 39401 Shop 601-584-1000 Home 601-543-0271 Proud supporter of LETTERVILLE! The best site on the net!! "I yam what I yam and dat's all dat I yam"
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Well guys and girls...as a paint supplier and one that used to sell and use Auto Air...i think i'm qualified to say it ain't what they say it is...it's a waterbase acrylic enamel product,and because of this the pigment is not of the same grind as solvent based products and the level of plasticizers etc is not the same...in plain english,its bigger/they're bigger particles....there are also no tail end solvents in Auto Air to cause it to 'flow' like 1shot or auto paints,it's dependent on evaporation to dry...it aint gonna flow once its on the surface,where it hits is gonna be where it stays....the only time i've seen a really really smooth surface with auto air is when its been backsprayed on plexiglass or wet sanded using mineral spirits as the lubricating factor and good luck trying to clear your work over that greasy crap...there is no reducer for the product...to reduce it,you add distilled water or extender...the major component of which is guess what...more water,all of which has to completely evaporate b4 you can recoat.....not a problem in dryer climates,but add any kind of humidity in the mix and it becomes a problem,thats why createx recommends heat setting. I know many people here use it,but i dont recommend it,there are better products out there....our recommendation if you insist on using water based enamels is Aquaflow...with the createx brand bond all and catalyst added to it......i've had auto air have adhesion problems and severe color fastness problems even 3 months down the line with the bond all and catalyst in it.....and have aquaflow and Golden and even regular Createx colors out there with bondall n catalyst that look just like new approaching 4yrs old,can't say the same for the Auto Air. And yeah yeah yeah yeah i know so and so etc uses it or I use it....sorry guys just my experience,this post has 15-20 replies and we used to hear this at least that many times a day,i'm not just talking crazy here....one trick we recommend with water base stuff like that when spraying is to shoot a coat,then switch to air only and retrace your path a couple of times or three or four(shut the material off) to help the drying start.....this wasn't a slam against Cynthia for using it,i'm just responding to questions others brought up.......for bigger blends i would use spray cans,automotive basecoat,SEM interior systems colors,aquaflow,or screen inks....screen ink s what they use for fades and highlights on factory mass packaged graphics....as far as air pressure i've seen it sprayed at as little as 25lbs and as much as 90lbs...remember this stuff isnt the consistency of milk,its more like mucus....and the brush/tip size issue is only that you may want a larger tip b/c of the larger particle size,BUT waterbase material will beat up the inside of your gun and cause more wear than any solvent based product. Lastly, DO NOT SPRAY IT WITHOUT A RESPIRATOR. Just b/c its waterbased does not mean that its safe,in fact the opposite is true.
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
The "general rule" is; The less you reduce the paint, the more air preasure needed to get it out the tip controlably. If you want a lot of overspray in the air in your shop or whatever, then turn up the preasure, most of your paint will be air bourn rather then on the substrate.
Oh well, whatever werks fer you !!
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
I use Krylon too at times, and when I use the airbrush I've used Createx, Auto Air, and what RT uses, Aquaflow. I have sometimes gotten the same effect Cynthia has, but when I clear, it's gone. Like said before, it may have something to do with the thinning. I too spray at about 60psi. Like RT, I have did a few t-shirts, and got used to that higher pressure. Haven't had any problems in many years. Lordy, lordy, shouldnta said that. Knock on wood. hee hee.
------------------ John Deaton III Deaton Design 109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101
Roger...I have never sprayed a perfect job either!!!
Others might look at a few jobs I have done and think there was nothing wrong with them but I always know what little things didn't turn out right.
That's what makes me keep on trying!
One of these days I am gonna spray the perfect job and NOT have Shirley or my best buddy say..."well ya did a great job but what about that little spot over there?"
HAHAHAHAHA ..
Shirl doesn't paint but she has been with me long enuf to know what to look for. And my buddy is the one who taught me how to spray paint in the first place and we both hate it when either of us inspects the other's work!
None of us are perfect and all we can do is aspire to perfection...it won't happen but it is a worthy goal!
------------------ Dave Grundy AKA "applicator" on mIRC "stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!" in Granton, Ontario, Canada 1-519-225-2634 dave.grundy@quadro.net www.quadro.net/~shirley
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
I'm with you Dave, we live on the wrong planet if we think we're ever gonna see PERFECT, just not gonna happen !!
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
...........wait a minute. WAIT A MINUTE!! My mother ALways told me I was...........................well...........well.............she did.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
Wait a minute! This stuff is sooooo easy. I have 4 steps to airbrushing vinyl....
1) cut vinyl (any kind) no refrigeration, prepping or scuffing needed
2) mix in a small plastic or paper cup. 1 part House of Kolor striping urethane to 3 parts reducer ( you want a consistance of milk) add 2-3 drops of striping hardner.
3) spray 1 light to medium coat.
4) wait 10 minutes,weed, tape and apply
no frog products needed. I would however, use a light mist of some UV clear after weeding if it is going to be on a vehichle or something thats gonna get beat up ( give it anothe 15 minutes to dry before taping.
------------------ -------------------------------------------------- "A wise man once said that, or was it a wise guy?"
Ken McTague The Witch city Salem, MA
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Just read this thread alone and you realize the wealth of knowledge and experience you get here. There is nothing like this anywhere, including trade magazines and seminars. How many ideas and methods were discussed on this topic alone and in such a brief amount of time. Good stuff!
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I urge you to switch to vinyl screen inks..
The inks work wonders.. they flow so nicely and they virtually "melt" into the vinyl, leaving no texture whatsoever behind that you can feel.
They even dry glossy..
When you compare the cost of screen inks to AutoAir or other waterbased stuff, the price is the same per ounce.. but by the time you thin the inks enough to spray via airbrush you get 4X the amount... Yes, $30 gets you a GALLON of sprayable vinyl ink!
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Never tried it Mike But sounds like you know what yer talkin bout !!
Next time "spray the ink"
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
I gave up fading vinyl altogether after an experience last year fading with auto-air. Orange was gone in 3 months, yellow went in 6. yes it was double coated with one shots uv clear.
Pipes is right about the ink. If you've ever seen the K&R rainbow silkcreened faded vinyls, you'll know they figured out ink is the best way to go. I've put that stuff on 5 years ago, and It's still going and going..and going.
------------------ Mike Duncan Lettercraft Signs Alexandria VA
From here on down, its all up hill.
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
Hey, Mikey! I didn't post that here because a local %#$@%#^%$@ reads the board. He's always wondered how we get our smooth glossy colors, but now the cat's out of the bag anyway. He's no competition for us, but he's one of those types that will undercut anyone for any dollar amount even if it's a loss, just to get the job. We have a few legitimate shops who buy from us who he's always jerking around. His latest "thing" is badly airbrushed automotive striping.
Anyway, Mike is absolutely correct about screening inks and vinyl. No arguement at all.
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Mike,
Most of the screen inks are very hazardous to your health. In fact, the ones I have here (nazdar gv series) have carcinogen warning labels. Just using them for screenprinting, I get headaches, and I'm not one who's usually sensitive to solvents.
You are right though, NOTHING will bond better than screen inks to vinyl. They actually become an integral part of the vinyl, and there is absolutely no way they can be removed.
They cost anywhere from 25 to 40 dollars per quart. The thing is, though, I can't see them being a good value to anybody but those who paint vinyl in high volume.
I don't know, but it seems to me, if they are labeled as a carcinogen, and are potentially hazardous to you when being printed (screen printed process), then I'd have to guess that they would be many times more harmful when floating around through the air from your airbrush.
In any event, I wouldn't even DREAM of airbrushing vinyl screen inks unless I was outdoors with a mask. I like the auto air paints, they seem to work well (in my limited experience), and aren't expensive.
Roger, Mike, Pierre.. I can tell you guys I've experimented with alot of colors in the 2 and a half years I've been doin auto graphics/striping etc and honestly I wasnt too sure about any of 'em.. sure I had good luck with adhesion on most of them but even using FrogJuice and krylon clear I just dont know how long they'll last.
When I received GV series samples from Nazdar and Nazdar 9600 series samples from a local mass production guy, I was totally sold on 'em. Man they stick like stink on sh*t, they dry as fast as I can spray 'em, and heck.. they're even DESIGNED for this purpose!! albeit the application method is a bit different than intended but where's the fun without just a little experimenting.
Pierre, sorry to let out the secret.. maybe your "competitor" will scoff at the $25-$40/qt price range on the inks and forget about it. =)
Shane, you know that waterbased paint is just as harmful to your body? Anything that goes airborne is dangerous man.. plus from what I hear, waterbased paint is absorbed into your skin easier than solvent based stuff. Check out the MSDS on the inks (and the waterbased stuff too).. I know Nazdar lists a specific respirator type they recommend you use while exposed to the inks.. they even specify an additional filter type if you plan to spray it which I think is cool considering the inks were never intended to be sprayed.
But.. if you're in your bathroom airbrushing vinyl using waterbased paint thinking you are safe because there's no fumes making you sick, think again.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :
Mike,
I guess you're right, but I don't know, that stuff just really makes me feel crummy whenever I open up a can of it. The water based paints don't, and I think there's something to be said for that. I must admit that sometimes I'm tempted to try spraying the stuff. But then I get reminded of what happened the last time I poured some of the gv series inks into a plastic cup...within 30 seconds it ATE the cup and I had a pool of ink on my workbench.
But I guess you're right about the water-based, you're not the first person who's told me that. Guess I just have a hard time accepting that.
Man after 36 posts you would have thought someone would have mentioned enamels.
I've never done the screen ink method, ( I'll have to try that one) but I have used House of Kolor paints and they work great but are pricey.
I use one-shot all the time, I get perfect blends ( yes I said perfect ) I get glossy finishes ( if you spray into wet paint ) and vibrant colors that last.
I gave up on water based paints, I just bought a good respirator and just paint with the paints that continue to make me money.
And why would you put the vinyl in the refrigerator? The only thing that belongs in the fridge is food. If the vinyl is cold and you sparay a water based paint, won't the paint freeze? Or at least set up too quick?
Cut the vinyl, scuff with 3m pad, clean with alcohol, tack rag, spray with one-shot, clear if you like, weed and let dry.
last but not least, collect check!!!!
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Until proven otherwise, I will not accept as fact that the Nazdar inks are no more dangerous than the water based paints. Odor is a good indicator of the toxic nature of these paints and inks. I am not saying to not take precautions with Auto Air and the like, but the inks we are talking about are much more dangerous when atomized. Leave an open bottle of Auto Air and an open can of Nazdar and tell me which one causes you more distress as far as headaches and the like. As far as biting to the vinyl, these inks are not going to be surpassed. Great adhesion.
------------------ Wright Signs Wyandotte, Michigan Since 1978 www.wrightsigns.outputto.com All change isn't progress, and all progress isn't forward.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Bob Rochon's reference to enamels is appropriate here. I think maybe people shy away from one-shot for this use for a couple of reasons. One would be having to wait on it because of slower drying time. Another might be the question at least in my tiny mind as to whether the vinyl is "enamel-receptive". Given that, I would scuff first, then frog juice , heat-set, and then airbrush the one-shot, then wait, and wait, and wait some more. After all that, I might or might not frog juice again. The next question that occurs is this-- will the one-shot stay flexible enough to tolerate whatever bending might be necessary in order to apply the vinyl? And last, how is all this going to tolerate transfer tape removal? Again, your thoughts and opinions, please.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posted by Cis Pack (Member # 2011) on :
Hi Everyone! Thank you so so much for all your answers. At least I still feel there is hope for me. It is nice to know that I am not the only one to have some prombles with spraying vinyl. If anyone would like to comment on the type of vinyl they airbrush I would appreciate it. I have tried the clear enamel receptive and white. It is like it someone said, this is like a seminar on the internet. I have learned more from this sight then all the books and magazines I have read. My thanks to Barbara and Steve for doing this site. The $50 that I sent to them to be a member has come back to me at least 10 times. Again tanks to all who responed. Roger, I am jealous you are living in Hawaii.
Hi Cynthia. I've been using AutoAir for about 2 years with great results. I cut the vinyl(Calon HP), rough it up with a Scotchbrite pad(fine), clean with alcohol and tack cloth, then paint @ 50psi. I used to spray a 35psi but my airbrush(Iwata Eclipse HP-CS) would clog up. At 50psi I don't have that problem. I use a heat gun in between coats of paint. When done painting, I clear with FrogJuice BEFORE I weed. After the Froggy dries, I mask and apply with RapidTac. Then I wet down the masking tape before I remove it. The only problem I have had with paint stickin' to vinyl is when I tried the "new, improved" Krylon junk. The old Krylon(before Borden sold out to Sherwin-Williams) worked great on vinyl.
OT: Cynthia, I used to go to Galax during the Seventies(71-76) for the annual Galax Fiddler's Festival. What I remember(when I wasn't sh*t-faced on corn whiskey) was great music and people of all ages partying 'til they dropped. Great times!
------------------ Mike"Spud"Kelly theSignWorx Ashburnham, MA 978.827.4439
"Your reputation is made by others; your character is made by you."
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Bill,
To answer some of your questions, I Have had problems in the past with tiny little pieces sometimes coming up with transfer tape.
But out of every problem comes a solution, I now spray ( which I forgot to mention ) Ticote on the vinyl, we use all 3m / gerber vinyl for any paint work. All 3m or gerber 220 series has been told to me by a 3m rep. to be "enamel receptive". So with this in mind, a cote of ticote and a 3m lo-tac application tape has served us flawlessly.
Ticote is made to be a binder to vinyl, dries quick and clear.
And we always spray the day before we do a job so drying time is planned.
As for flexibility, the enamel is sprayed in thin layers, unless we spray into a brushed layer, but then again most of this work is for truck lettering so it is almost always applied to a flat verticle surface.
Hope this helps.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Thanx, Bob Quick response is appreciated, and, yes you have answered my ?s. I've been using Spar-Cal premium, now Avery for about five years, but I still don't know if it is considered "enamel-receptive", that is why I frog juice beforehand. Have also found that it doesn't pay to try to rush some things i.e. tape removal, and that is why I consider soaking it before trying to get it off as cheap insurance. Thanx, again.
------------------ Bill Preston Fly Creek, N.Y. USA wpreston2@stny.rr.com
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Dave Wright...youre correct in one way...but this is the lowdown....everyone believes that waterbase stuff is safer..it is not...youre body is mostly water and anything that's encapsulated chemically in water can be easily absorbed into your body..it recognizes it as being the 'same' in a nutshell....the same pigments/toxic components used in solvent based sysytems are used in waterbased systems,yes,even latex...solvent based systems are much harder for your body to deal with.....its by no means safer,its just recognized more readily as 'an invader' when it enters your system and is more easily broken down into other components by you're bodies systems..ex...take a gallon of water based isocyanates and dump it into a drinking well and you've contaminated that well forever,dump a gallon of solvent based isocyanates in there and they will degrade to into other chemical forms and you will be able to use the well again....and NO DON'T TRY THAT AT HOME.....or consider this...tattoo inks are waterbased for a reason....anything else would be rejected by the body. None of the damage done by this stuff is immediate,remember that..its a build up over time that does the harm...solvent based stuff is more aggressive by nature and as a result you may see some kinda symptomatic reaction pop up as a result right away that has nothing to do with long term exposure...i know i've read here that people have switched to water based systems b/c solvents were making them sick...and yes that happens,its an individual thing just like allergies so by all means switch...but don't not take precautions just because the stuff doesnt smell as bad or burn when it hits you etc....a note on the smell aspect...we have a few products in the store that have a noxious component added to em on purpose b/c they don't have a 'bad' enuff odor on their own for the manufacturers to feel confident people will know its bad stuff....kinda like the bacteria they put in can goods to make the can swell after a certain age. Believe me,i'm not saying solvent based stuff is safer by a long shot,it's just that so many people think waterbased products are all like johnsons baby shampoo. And yes,i know.."it hasnt killed me yet,i should be dead by now"...how many times have you heard that...
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
I forgot...somebody emailed me and said that whenever they shoot auto air and clear it,the underlying surface still seems rough(can't remember who it was,sorry)...most likely cause of that is this....remember the auto air has a much larger particle size and almost no surface flow...so you never really get a uniformly flat/integral surface with it..there's always tiny pinholes and valleys etc that your eye can't pick up...the clear will go down into those,dry around em amd highlight em. And a side note to the pricing issue...for this the screen inks are you're best bet and i've seen a couple of people say well they're $25-$30/qt or so...figure paying $3.50-$4.95 for 4oz of Auto Air it works out to $28-$37/qt......and auto air won't last even a quarter as long..Del Badry told me he's had a couple of qts for over 5yrs now....try that with auto air
------------------ Gavin Chachere aka Zeeman Miller Supply Co./Ozone Signs & Grafix New Orleans La. www.millersupply.net www.ozonegrafix.com
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Cynthia, remember; "no matter where you go, there you are"
Now, just pick a place, and "there ya are"
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
David Wright,
If you have adequate ventilation, you shouldnt notice any overpowering aroma from the inks. Sure, they stink.. but that's why there's respirators and fans. I walked into a local mass production screening shop and you can smell the inks from the OUTSIDE of the building there. Inside is pretty non-aromatic, their vents keep the place fresh. Yesterday I spent about 4 hours out in the garage spraying a bunch of vinyl jobs with vinyl inks.. the most discomfort I experienced was from the 115 degree heat. With the garage door open and a big ol' fan pushin the air out the rear door, there wasnt any smell lingering around when I took the respirator off.
I dont think smell is a good indicator of toxics. Antifreeze doesnt smell all that bad, certainly not overpowering.. I'd dare anyone to drink it and try not to die.
Anyway.....
The only way to know the toxic levels of paints and pigments is to read the MSDS on the products.
Even vinyl films are dangerous.
I was bored one night so I did some research, found some MSDS on vinyl. Vinyl films can give ya cancers and all kinds of problems if you stick it in yer mouth or if it's somehow absorbed into your body... just like the vinyl inks and all the paints we use in this biz.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
