The Letterville BullBoard: my long rant on digital vs brush

This is topic my long rant on digital vs brush in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.letterville.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/4084.html

Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :

(long cranky rant that delves into capitalism and the upcoming digital convergence, with more than you care to know about me).

i'm NOT against digital media. i've made a lot of money with digital.

i was creating PostScript vector art files before any of you were (1985). i've digitized fonts for Adobe (1989). i've developed graphic design software (QuarkXTensions, 1990). i'm just ready for new challenges.

my back hurts after a day on the computer... hurts for the next two days. that's why i got into sign making (rather than just sign designing).

yes, great work can be done quickly and cost effectively with digital media. and that work is highly capital intensive. the cost of a digital printing system (software, hardware and consumables) will not decrease much over time (when scaled to inflation). the cost of Adobe PhotoShop has not dropped since 1988 - it just "does more". these systems perpetuate a cycle of consumption that i'm just not interested in, much, any more.

i'm expecting to get a better ROI with my paint brushes (and the training needed to use them) than i would from a digital print system.

like most of you, i'm not the Worlds Greatest Designer. but i do expect to be a journeyman level craftsman some day. that, to me, is satisfying. my other "careers" have included a letterpress printing business (100 year old press doing work for a very select market) and a busy Italian motorcycle repair shop (fussy 20-40 year old machines with fussier owners... who pay handsomely). I mastered those trades (printer and mechanic), had a lot of fun, and sold the equipment for the same price i paid for it. What's the resale value of a five year old digital printer?

with the convergence of digital media, a better designer can simply email me his file for output... not much fun for me. or, he can email it to somebody with the same machine, who will work for less.

i'd rather sell my brush skills to an appreciative (if small) market, than compete with every designer with a computer and access to digital output. "hello Kinko's, i need you to print out 25 GerberEdgeVII prints for our clients truck fleet... you'll have them in an hour? great."

i'll be that "cranky old guy up on the hill who still does pinstriping" when everybody else is just putting their cars through the digital carwash. (those of you in timber country have probably seen the 12' high ink-jet printers that blast lumber grade info onto flatbeds full of 2x4s ... while the train is moving. how long until you just drive the car through to get it 'graphicked'?)

and, eventually, when The People rise up, or the big earthquake hits and Nevada slips into the Atlantic with the rest of the country, or maybe when the electricity stops (again), i'll be able to gild

I TOLD YOU SO!

in neat lines of snappy letters, with bevel, outline and shading, on anything left standing. (ok, i'm putting my tinfoil hat back on so J Edgar won't be able to beam thoughts at me any more).

------------------
:: Scooter Marriner ::
:: Coyote Signs ::
:: San Francisco ::
:: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner
::

Posted by Kevin Landry (Member # 1352) on :

You are with out a doubt 100% right. Unfortunately this is impossible for most shops because they have to stay alive. Digital sucks, plain and simple. We do it, and it makes my back sore. Vinyl is not too bad because you are up and down. I am always worried about longevity with digital. I don't appreciate the art and the customer doesn't either. "You just have to press a few buttons" they say.

------------------
Kevin Landry
KnL Signs
Halifax NS
knlsigns@hfx.eastlink.ca

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

I had all intensions of starting my own thread as I was up all night thinking about what I wanted to say. But since Scooter started, it I will add my two cents.
Hopefully I have another thirty or so years in the trade (God willing and the creek don't rise). Judgeing from the photos at the left of your posts many of you are nearing the end of your tour of duty in the trade. Where my problem lies is with the people who talk about digital and being able to do the job for a fraction of the cost. The trucks we letter cost three times what they did fifteen years ago, the equipment we use to do the job is also three times the cost, if this is true why do we charge less to letter the two doors. Ultimatley a customer comes into have his doors lettered. If the jobs was worth $400 when we used a brush why should it be worth any less just because it is printed.
When the computer came on the scene and all you old guys were using your 4B you didn't want to change. But when Johnny No-talent bought a system and started undercutting you, everyone was ready to hang him from the nearest tree. As far as I'm concerned you are doing the same thing to yourselves by watering down the pricing on lettering. If the customer paid it before there is no reason for them not to pay it now. When the quickie/stickie shops get up to speed in the digital world and start undercutting you guys, you'll all be ready to slit your throats.
Maybe some of you are not thinking of the future of this trade and maybe some don't care. Maybe your just trying to bank roll your retirement fund before it's your time to quit. Whatever the case may be, don't do to ourselves what you were so pist off about when others did to us. Our work is worth $$$$$ no matter if we use a brush, vinyl or digital.
OK elders, I've said my piece, let me have it!!!

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Rob,

Your are so right on the money, just look at how those cars are made today, most of the assembly line is robotics now. so it costs the company less to make cars but hey still go up. I don't think car companies even price cars for actual cost anymore, they price them for what group of people they are targeting and what these people make.

Even though I price digital less than paint I still price it on value not cost plus labor.

Like I said to a fellow head the other day. We don't sell stickers or paint, we sell advertising.

I still offer both, paint and digital, the reason I offer digital less is that it is not the same quality it would be If I did it by hand. Not to mention it will not last as long. Call me stupid but I will still give the customer the option to buy the kind of quality he or she wants. That way they will be happy with their own choice.

I still remember a few "snappers" that would undercut everybody even with a brush. the sad thing is some of these guys were really good.

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

[This message has been edited by Bob Rochon (edited July 19, 2001).]

Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :

Scooter, there's far less competition at the top. If you have exclusive skills and can conect with the clientelle that desires that, you'll be busy and making $$$.

------------------
The SignShop
Mendocino, California
"Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"

Posted by Tim Barrow (Member # 576) on :

Can't do anything but agree with you guys,been doin it for longer than I'd like to admit sometimes.I just wish the digital folks would quit disinforming the public & the trade as to these "paint failures" in a short period of time. In my quarter century of experience the only failures I've seen are
usually due to the brush operator's short cut or improper use of the product,save a a very few minute situations where environmental factors such as pollutants have deteriorated the finish.I've never seen a set length of time guarantee onna can of good sign paint,wonder why the vinyl folks think they have to have one? Logic would state that the reason is they feel as though they have reason to need to convince the end user,....why then do they need to convince them?

------------------
fly low...timi/NC
is,.....Tim Barrow
Barrow Art Signs
Winston-Salem,NC
http://artistsfriend.com/signs

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

Tim you said a mouthful!! In my area (out in the country) you will see an old farm truck lettered 35 years ago. The paint is still on the truck and usually looking a lot better than the truck does. I have seen print jobs in the area I know only to be 3-4 years old and they are fading terribly. I also saw a van a buddy printed and the customer washed the truck with some industrial strength cleaner and the job ran down the truck. I will take my chances with paint any day. As the print world tries to discredit the paint world I guess we will have to do the same of theirs. Let the price war begin. LOL

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

[This message has been edited by Rob Larkham (edited July 19, 2001).]

Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :

Let you have it Rob???? Fraid I can't, there is no standing ovation icon available

Digital is going to shake up the industry in a few years much the same as vinyl did a few years back. I think the casualties will be a little different this time around however. The hand letterers have already taken the big hit from vinyl.
Digital seems to be bringing a new trend in bad taste that's rearing it's ugly head ( pun intended) that of putting the business owners picture on the sign or truck. I don't know whats worse Brush Script all caps on a arc or Phil the plumbers fat face on the side of a a van. Can the kids, cats and horses that have nothing at all to do with the business be far behind?

------------------
George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@ionictech.com

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

http://goatwell.tripod.com

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

Thanks George...Glad to see someone thinks I'm talking sense.

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :

Heheheheh.... I can see it now....20 years into the future , there will be a dozen Suoper Sign Corporations, and a few little shops!
Only HUGE corporations will be able to afford the equipment to scan, print, laminate and srink wrapp vehicles with signage and graphics!
AND the few little shops will still be hand lettering truck doors and walls, because no one, like Phil the Plumber, will be able to afford the advanced corporate stuff!
Us ol' brushies will be hobbling over with our canes and walkers cranking out these jobs!

------------------
Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

95% of all accidents occur immediately after the words "Hey...watch this."

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

Si- That's what I'm hoping for!!!

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :

I have to agree with both Ricky and Timi.

what Ricky sez is far better then going for it halfass.

To me what Timi sez is not many persons who push the brush know how to mix the paint!

------------------
HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping
Grants Pass, Oregon
Learn something......
http://members.tripod.com/Inflite

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

LOL

From what I have seen...I don't care much for digital either. Looks cheap. But this is most likely the way it will go. Faster.....cheaper.....uglier. (sigh)

------------------
surf or MoJo
on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
Seattle WA.....!
signsbycheryl@hotmail.com

http://www.thisismycool.com/signs/

From sharp minds come sharp products

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

I STILL don't see what the big deal is about brush vs. digital.

There wouldn't even BE digital if there wasn't a market for it.

People that purchase digital KNOW it's only going to last 2 or 3 years.

Since they know it's only going to last a couple of years, there's no way they're going to pay as much as they would for paint.

People will ALWAYS want paint because it's what they're familiar with, and there are still people that will not accept the short lifespan of vinyl or digital, relative to the life of paint when taken care of.

I've used paint, vinyl and digital, they all have their place.

I wouldn't use paint for vehicle graphics knowing the owner is going to change them within 6 months..
I wouldnt use vinyl to wrap a vehicle to make it a different color..
I wouldn't use digital for either of the above two, but it's great for zappin' off a run of full color decals.

I've said this before, but if your business fails it's not because of the quicky sticky or digital guys, it's because you couldn't market your skills to make people want to come to you with their checks in-hand.

By the way, about the cost of doing digital.. if your machine cost $50,000 and you wanted it to pay for itsself within the first year, it'll cost ya $25/hour but it frees you up to do other work so it basically works for 1/3rd or less of your potential hourly rate.

------------------
Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

I wonder of traditional pinstripers said the same kind of stuff when the Beugler (spl?) tool came out; or, what the carriage makers said about the Model A?

I sit here and think back to 10 years ago. Would I rather go back to the days when I had to do my work in an un-airconditioned garage, sucking up the turpentine fumes and overspray, freezing my butt off during the winter trying to letter a rig in the middle of a windy field. Or, sit in my cushy chair in my aircondtioned office, loosing my "farmer's tan", and being able to go home at a reasonable hour comfortable in the knowledge that my clothes don't smell like a rotting pine tree.

I know its easy to romanticize "how things used to be." But I have to tell you, I don't miss the old days that much. Long hours. Sweating one minute and freezing the next. Now I can create attractive and effective designs faster and with less stress, all the while making more money than ever before.

Well stated Mike!

------------------
Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

If I wanted to sit on my A** and do some cushy job I would have become a politician. No, I chose to work for a living. I don't mind hard work, never have never will. Sometimes the hard way is a better way. But suit yourself and I'll take the road less traveled.

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Rob,
I've been there and used to say the same thing. I'm just ready to make some money for a change. That's not to say you can't by doing things the more traditional way. I just find that I've reached a point in my life where that kind of hard work isn't as much fun any more. I also find myself making much more money today and working a lot fewer hours.

Getting older, I find myself finding other things more important than signs. If I can find a way to make more money while working less hours, thereby allowing me to spend more time on other persuits, I'm all for it.

------------------
Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

[This message has been edited by Glenn Taylor (edited July 19, 2001).]

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

Just two different ways of life. I grew up working on a farm. Start at 5:00am and finish when the hay was in the barn. Been that way with every job since then. Don't believe I'll ever change. Money never has meant much to me. When I have it, I spend it. I enjoy people and the simpler things in life. Sitting on the front porch and watching the wind blow through the trees is fine with me. I just quit racing Go-karts after 9 years. Spent about forty-five grand doing that. In the end I found it really wasn't worth all the dough. I decided to just simplify my life and slow things down. You've done the same but in a different way. To each his own my Grandmother always says.

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

[This message has been edited by Rob Larkham (edited July 19, 2001).]

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Cheryl I agree most digital stuff looks cheap but it is what you do with the machine that is important.

I've got stuff out there that I swear you wouldn't know it was digitally printed. unless you were so close you could smell it.

Have you ever seen Karen Sousa's work with the Edge?

Stunning!!!

You can't tell most of her printed jobs from the painted ones.

Anyway, some will embrase it and some won't. Neither is the better!!

The method is still second to design anyday!

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Posted by Adrienne Pereira (Member # 1046) on :

Skooter! I like the way you think!!!
Looking forward to meeting you!
Git yo'self to a Letterhead meet....Ron's is coming up real soon!
Adrienne

------------------
Adrienne Morgan
Splash Signs
www.splashsigns.com
"Rainkatt'on chat

Benicia, CA
707-550-4553
adrienne@splashsigns.com

Posted by Kurt Gaber (Member # 256) on :

I find it amusing to see how most of the opinions seem to be all or nothing when it comes to digital. Why not both? To hammer on digital as if it were taboo is questionable. I used to whine big time about vinyl some 12 years ago, now I cut alot of vinyl, and I'm coming up on my 1 year anniversary of owning an EDGE too. I'm proud to be a guy who can still brush, a guy who can cut vinyl wisely and have found a whole new market with digital customers as well.

I don't do "east coast" looking truck lettering jobs for 500.00 per set of doors, and there isn't much gold leaf to be seen for miles in this neck of the woods, but I try to keep up with what the market seems to want, and I'm glad I can provide all 3...
hand lettering, vinyl and digital.

I agree with Glen about not having to smell the paint fumes all day long. Sure I enjoy painting, but for the health part of it, I'd much rather produce a nice gradient blended letter(with shadows, outlines, etc) on the EDGE and Abrasion Guard it rather than spray bomb or airbrush a blend and then spray highly toxic clear coat over it. (By the way, I still do that, but not much thanks to my EDGE)

I'm starting work on a 20 x 30 hand painted mural tomorrow, and with a little help, I plan to post a picture(digital pic from my digital camera)of it on the Bullboard when it's done. I like wearing both hats... the one with paint on it, and the other one with
220 Scothcal stuck to it.

Lighten up guys, we're all in the same boat... it's just that some boats have more bells and whistles.

------------------
Kurt Gaber
Signguy7
33 East Willow St.
Chippewa Falls, WI 54729
Supporter of the Letterheads Website
www.gabersigns.com

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Kurt,

Versatitlity is where it is at, one stop shopping.

Today I will print 6 signs that have 6 portraits each in them on the Edge, & last night I got a call to tell me I got a upcomming job to gild two doors at a local colledge. Not to mention I pinstriped a truck last night.

How can it be any better than this!

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

How can it be any better??

Be in Burmuda making signs!

------------------
Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :

Ahhhh...it seems to never end...

As I have stated often...I CHOOSE not to go digital or strictly vinyl. My signs are 90% paint or gold...2% vinyl and 8% other mediums. I DON'T try to compete with all the digital and vinyl people out there...and they certainly don't compete with me!

I am now in the position in the community of doing the really nice signs...people come to me because I am still able to swing a brush or carve a sign. That is the bulk of my business. I have raised my prices considerably...they still are willing to pay the price...because they know they want quality.

The market is out there for a person that can still use a brush...I don't think that will ever end...(as long as they still make paint and brushes) so...to argue about digital vs paint is futile...it is as bad as arguing about religion...the Christians will never listen!

------------------
Jackson Smart
Jackson's Signs
Port Angeles, WA
...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...

"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Glenn,

If a pale white boy like me, ever ends up in Bermuda, Signs will be the last thing on my mind.

I'd become a dive master and buy a boat.

Someone pass the SPF 75..... water proof of course.

------------------
Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :

Sounds an awful lot like GREED to me.Similar to very small children.gemme,gemme,gemme,I want MORE and I want it NOW.You know they have 12 step programs for this kind of(if I only had more money)thinking.
Here is an observation for everyone:IF you are not satisfied with what you have NOW.How can your ever be satisfied with what you want? Because once you have what you want,then you will have it once again and on and on and on.
It is a sick mind,that depends on people ,places and things to satisfy them.
Just my opinion as a very happy guy.

------------------
PKing is
Pat King of
King Sign Design in
McCalla,Alabama
The Professor of
SIGNOLOGY

Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :

Well,i dunno about anyone else in this thread....but when i go to work or do a job...I wanna get PAID.P-A-I-D. SHOW ME THE MONEY! The maximim amount i can,as many times as i can...repeatedly. And next year...I wanna get paid MORE. EVERYTHING increases...in the paint biz we have mandantory increases of 3-5% from the manufacturer at minimum once a year,sometimes twice. I am not there to work for free or give work or product away regardless if i paint,stick it slap it whatever. We can have all the happy romantic notions of leading the artists life we want,but there is no nobility in the struggle after you pass a certain age. It becomes time to earn a decent living and enjoy the things that earning that living can bring you. Being happy is one thing,but that will not stop the bank from taking your house,your buisness,your car or being put in jail for writing bad checks. You are in buisness to earn an income ,whether its doing vinyl,digital,handcrafting everything,or subbing it all out and turning 20% for sitting around. Diverversifying your abilities to broaden your customer base and increase your income is smart buisness...that DOES NOT make you childish or greedy,it makes you a smart buisnessman.Every one here,no matter what your experience level or ability...you still have more skills and are doing a service for your customer that he does not have/can't do himself....so you should be paid for it.Period. Do not feel guilty about that fact I think anyone here can admit,sure you can love what you do,but you love it even more when people are willing to pay you for it. Is this directed in some personal way toward Pat? No. I just hate to see stuff like that said....at times over half the posts on this board are how much should i charge,i wish i was better at biz,what should i do,how do i collect accts recievable etc...so to imply in anyway that wanting to maximize your income makes you sick enuff to warrant some 12 step program,childish or greedy gives a an impression that hey...just be satisfied with what they'll give you for it and smile...baloney,enuff people here do that already,don't EVER feel guilty for charging what you think the job is worth to the customer,earning a good profit and supporting your buisness and family,and planning for your futures, no matter what medium you use...and if you get a chance to expand your ability in any way,wheter its digital guy learning to letter or vice versa DO IT,thats the smart play. No reason in the world why a printer/plotter can't be running while you letter a 4x4 with a brush....and make three times the money you would have b4 just doing one or the other.

------------------
Gavin Chachere
aka Zeeman
Miller Supply Co./Ozone
Signs & Grafix
New Orleans La.
www.millersupply.net
www.ozonegrafix.com

UBB.classic™ 6.7.2