The Letterville BullBoard: Should I do it?

This is topic Should I do it? in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.

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Posted by Sam Nitzberg (Member # 2185) on :

I am thinking of starting a sign business. I've managed two non-sign businesses for others, am quite computer savvy, and like to be in a creative environment, so I think it's a good fit. My question is whether or not I should start from scratch or buy into a business opportunity called Signworld. Has anybody out there had any experience with Signworld? I calculate that I could save about $65,000 of the $97,000 they want by doing it on my own, but wouldn't get their training, set-up support, ongoing support, etc. It's not a franchise, so ongoing fees are not an issue. It's not an established business for sale, it's basically a training and set-up organization. I plan to hire a signmaker who knows the industry, whether or not I go with Signworld.

It seems that forums like this could provide a lot of the support I would be paying for from them, but having never been in business for myself, and really not knowing a thing about the sign business other than what I've learned in researching this, maybe getting their help at the beginning make sense.

What do you think?

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Posted by Bob Burns (Member # 268) on :

The trouble is.....anybody with $5000 can get
into the sign biz. The key to being successful for starters, is that you understand layout, and all the stuff that goes with it to make a sign not only look good, but that it "works"! This takes YEARS and YEARS to learn. If you think that the Sign business is just about your ability to run a business, and have lots of neat hardware....think again!
On the other hand, if you've got talent,
and are a quick learner, GO FOR IT!!!!

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Bob Burns
Bob Burns Signs

1619 Oregon Ave.
Prescott, Az 86305
1-520-778-5879

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

i just went to www.signworld.org and if it aint a franchise...i dont what you would call it. here again is the crossing of lines...they are a sign business organization...and tell the same old story that all others do...dont need talent, no experiance needed...sign-making is easy work and high dollar return. well my friend i got a bridge in tampa bay i want to sell you the mere sum of $50,000 and it will be yours and only yours....and a protected area that it will cover...dont know who you are as you didnt fill out the profile, and where in the world you are...but i been in this line of work since 86 full time...and i've thought more then once about gettin a real job at home depot or lowes...but if you got $100,000....ill be glad to sell my "existing" sign shop..eqiupment included...but i cant give you the art ability that i have...take a while to get that...

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :

What Ol' Paint said!

................OR......................

You can get a job with an established sign company, for a while, to see what is REALLY involved...before jumping in!
Knowing what materialss are used, in what situations...........layout.........color combinations...........letter styles........PRICING.........and a whole bunch of other cosiderations in running a business!

Remember....most people who just jump into the sign business....saying: "6 months ago, I couldn't spel sine paneter, but now I are one!" fail within the first year!

Just my 2 cents worth, after being in the biz for 34 years!

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Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

95% of all accidents occur immediately after the words "Hey...watch this."

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

To whom it may concern---I've been in the sign biz part time for six years. I just quit my full time job to finally take a shot at it. I do have knowledge of the biz and it is still dam hard. I get up at 2:00 am six nights a week to make bagels at a local deli just to make sure my kids eat this week. I want it bad. Bad enough to do what I'm doing. I barely see my wife and I'm constantly tired. I have surrounded myself with people who are willing to help me. I have at least another couple of years before I can quit my part time job. I wish it was as easy as just opening the front door and the customers walking in. I also have a degree as a Graphic Designer and have knowledge of layout and design. Signworld, sign-a-rama, Joe's house of signs, they may as well be McDonalds. If you have $100,000 to gamble with, go ahead. The local Sign-a-rama where I live is on its third owner in as many years. The first owner had a nervous breakdown and the present owner managed a Stop and Shop grocery store before being bamboosald into buying his joint. He doesn't even know how to turn the computer on in his shop. He is pulling his hair out. Good luck!!!

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Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

Kram....When I started my sign business ('76) drawing was easy for me. I loved to doodle...loved to draw. Back then signs were handlettered, and basically were 'art'. Today it is different. However you still have to have the desire and passion to make signs. You still have to have the drive to make great looking signs. Not just plain ordinary signs.......but those that have good layout, color combo, and readability. You can certainly try to just buy a computer and go for it, but without the passion....I am not sure how it will work out. Best of luck to you. Cheryl

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surf or MoJo
on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
Seattle WA.....!
signsbycheryl@hotmail.com

http://www.thisismycool.com/signs/

From sharp minds come sharp products

[This message has been edited by cheryl nordby (edited July 16, 2001).]

Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :

You are getting good information here. It's a long road. I work a full-time job and do signwork partime. I do all sales, design, labor, and paperwork. I can handle all that, but I don't think I could bankroll an operation that would be fulltime for me. Bob mentioned it above. $5000 and you have a cutter/software and some inventory. You can drop another 25k without getting started good.
Don't fall in the trap of listening to the sales end of this business, without knowing exactly what market you want to target and take.

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Santo Brocato
Promotion Graphics & Letters
Youngsville LA.

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Kram,

Check your local area phone book to see how many sign shops are in your area. There maybe to much competition to support a fulltime operation.

You don't need a "franchise" to get help you get started in the sign biz, you just need a computer and a plotter and Corel Draw.

However, you should know your competition and what all they things they do to make their business work.

In our business, vinyl signs are just part of the imcome. Hand carved landscaped yard signs, hand paints, edge printing stickers and large format graphics on vehicles or sign as well.

There is a lot to consider.

------------------
Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA

Get To A Letterhead
Meet This Summer! See
you there!
309-828-7110
drapersigns@hotmail.com
Draper_Dave on mIRC chat

Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :

I think you could kram enough information in your head from boards like this one to start your own business, so why just signage?

If you are savvy in anyway then you should have posted more information as requested from the instant you registered. Posting does not just require a alias but also a real name and a profile. Why should ones question be regarded with any value when not an ounce of ones profile is provided. All I see is a link to some sign thingie and possibly free advertising for a company which has little to offer anyone thinking of this business, in the real sign world!

I believe that anyones hundred grand could make significant money if invested in something they more about rather then grab for straws.

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HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping
Grants Pass, Oregon
Learn something......
http://members.tripod.com/Inflite

Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :

for 100 grand i will sell you a well established sign business with repeat business. good customers, and lots of equipment, supplies and so forth. will stay with you as an employee for 1 year and work part time after that. i have been in business for 30 years

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Jimmy Chatham
Chatham Signs
164 Poplar Rd.
Commerce, Ga 30529
706-335-2348
Fax 706-335-3378
icq#11718273

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

I'm going to slightly go against the grain here.

I believe if you have excellent business sence, you can make ANY business fly. Meaning, obviously if you have good business sence, you know to hire professionals in the field that know more than you, etc.

Only problem with this is, if your help walks, so does your biz, so using your good biz sence, you treat your employees right and they stay, and get them to train you as you go along.

I just feel that if you don't have a love for this biz in your heart somewhere, it will be a difficult uphill climb. But then again I'm speaking from my own heart. I could never go into a biz I didn't enjoy doing. If making chairs made me a millionaire, I still couldn't do it cuz I'm not interested in making chairs. (you get the idea)

Then again there's the artist who loves this line of work but can't make a decent dollar. I see this come to play more than the other way around. The artist with no biz sence would do well hiring someone with good biz sence to make it fly high.

Life is such a gamble. If in your heart you have the guts and biz know how to try, what's stopping you? Worst case scenario, you move to something else. But by all means, ensure you hire someone who knows layout if you don't. Otherwise, you'll be like any other no talent newbie out there going into biz.

Best of luck, and let us know what you decide! You're right, you will get loads of support from this board. You've found a good place to park. But a caution, this crowd loves to help those that help themselves. You put your best foot forward, you'll get loads of support.

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Graphic Impact
Abbotsford, BC, Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :

First things first. We are a community here in Letterville. I like to know who I am talking to, where they are from, and who they work for... just like in the real world. That is why we strongly request everyone posting here use their real name instead of a nickname. We also ask that a signature file containing your real name and location be setup to sign your posts. Please go back and reread the few simple rules we all agree to before registering to post here in Letterville.

http://www.letterhead.com/ubb-cgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=agree

If anyone has any questions on how to setup your signature file, please contact Barb at barb@letterhead.com or phone us at 519-787-2673

I have a question for you Kram. What is it about the sign industry that interests you?

If you ask Letterheads that same question, I am almost positive most would reply they have enjoyed drawing or some form of creativity most of their lives. We share a love for what we do. The money and lifestyle was probally a secondary consideration that only becomes more important as we get older.

I am convinced that Letterheads are a small proportion of the "sign industry." In my early years, I could not understand why the majority of sign makers did not share my passion for the trade. It's only been in the last few years that I have learned that I am the strange one. For most in the sign business, making signs is just another job. They do not share or even understand the almost fanatical way us Letterheads get pleasure from what we do.

The reason I made the above statements is to illustrate that the answers you get here in Letterville may differ from those you get on any other sign industry type website. Many of us here still like to believe you need a natural talent to do this sort of work. Some still feel that years of training on things like layout and design may have something to do with being successful in this business.

I know I am coming off as a real grump here and I really don't mean to. It's just very frustrating to see that so many of the skills we worked so hard and so long for can now be taught in such little time. At one time, a signmaker used to be someone pretty special. We took pride in the fact that we had skills and talent that very few never took the time to develop. It felt good when kids looked on with wonder as we painted our designs. To suddenly realize that all one needs is computer skills to be successful in today's sign game is a hard pill to swallow. What makes it even worse is the fear that you may just be right.

------------------
Steve Shortreed
144 Hill St., E.
Fergus, Ontario
Canada N1M 1G9
519-787-2673
steve@letterhead.com
ICQ 316338
www.letterhead.com/profiles/shortreed/

Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :

I think anyone trying to start a sign business with only the desire to be in a creative atmosphere and 100 grand in thier pocket is either very nieve,or needs to join one of those 12 step programs.Or better yet come to the Duck Soup Splatter Jam Live Letterhead Meet going on Sept.14,15,16 in McCalla AL.to see EXACTLY what it will take to make money in the sign business without being computer savy.Just people savy!
By the way Kram,where did they tell you the customers would be coming from?and how many to support your investment?

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PKing is
Pat King of
King Sign Design in
McCalla,Alabama
The Professor of
SIGNOLOGY

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Well, I actually did think about this one, but decided to tell you the logic as I see it. If you have that much to invest in a business, the sign industry is NOT the right investment. You're going to be at the mercy of whomever you hire as an experienced advisor. My entire life has been in the art world, and unless you have a very unique talent you'll be battling with the franchise shops that come and go all month long. I've done exceptionally well with mine, but I'm an illustrator and a realistic type carver. Our projects are in the very high dollar bracket and we have virtually no competition in our area with the things we do. The quickie/stickie shops around us are in a constant struggle with each other. You'd just be joining the ranks. If you're not an artist or a layout specialist to begin with, there is not much you can do with a computer and a plotter except survive...............maybe.
Use your money in an area you know already. I don't mean to be a downer here, but it's a tough industry.

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

Thank you Steve!

For addressing this issue about Signatures!

I am sorry Kram, but this is a very important avenue here in the (Letterhead Site)...

As far as buying into a Pre-Fabed Shop..
If you have the talent as well as the money in your area! Go for it!(Under the conditions of knowing your competition and your abilities.

But as others have stated! If you are looking into a investment only, without the talent! Your going to wake up real soon.

If you do purchase this then I say Good Luck to you and hope to see you on this site more often!

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Raven/2001
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower Sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :

Steve, Awesome soapbox man!!
You just neede to finish it with an 'I am Canadian' slogan spoof...."MY NAME IS STEVE, AND I'M A LETTERHEAD!!"

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Corey Wine
signCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
The ex-Californian Canadian
signconcepts1@home.com

"I cooked a meatloaf recipe that I downloaded off of the internet. A day later, I got a stomach VIRUS....Coincidence?"

Posted by Tim Barrow (Member # 576) on :

If you are interested & ya have the money tis can be a rewarding career.If you are looking for a frachise biz to invest 100k this ain't it.For years now sign franchises have been the second fastest growing small biz industry in the US.They have also been the fastest small biz to go under or trade
hands.The small signage industry is at a saturation point to where only the true professionals,and or those willing to go the extra mile to learn over a period of time
can keep their head above water,in the local metro area here.I would presume it's like that in quite a few metro areas if not worse.In the days before computers ppl who wished to ply this trade either worked their way up thru the ranks or bought into an existing business with enough trained pro employees that if one left the other could train new help to fill the void.Anyone with half a talent or decent hand writing could learn their abc's & 10 numerals along with a few puntuation marks in say a 5 yr period to obtain a sellable skill.However in the time they attained a sellable skill & werked around the shop alot more than just learning art skills was involved.They had to do installs service work develope good shop skills and alot more. Having experience in managing others to do this was not acceptable in most shops ya had to have the hands on experience to show others how.Often as not a service call can become a life or death situation in a few seconds,no training period short of several years can prepare you for this.These are the things that many are not told in these "franchise offers" or the silly dream the cas system slick salesmen offer along with their product.There is a huge amount of disinformation being pushed on folks to believe they can open up what alot of us here call a lickem & stickem.The franchise attitude towards cheap inexperienced help in it self breeds cheap competition as no help worth paying is going to continue for the low wages in most franchise plans.In years past if you found good help worth training it was automatically assumed they would compete with you sooner or later.And for less than the price of a used car they(the disenchanted low payed aspiring help) too, can buy all the equipment & tools needed to set up shop in a back bedroom or kitchen table to do the type work these franchises cater to.Just because you can use the software or afford to buy it, does not neccessarily automatically give you the skills to good layout & design although alot of slick sales types would like the public to think so.I'm not writing this to disenchant you to the sign business,just trying to put alot of info quick into a nutshell to answer your question.

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fly low...timi/NC
is,.....Tim Barrow
Barrow Art Signs
Winston-Salem,NC
http://artistsfriend.com/signs

Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :

Everyone has got great points here...listen to them.

Don't suppose we will ever here from you again but one thing I believe every sign artist needs wether they are letterheads, vinyl heads or window slashers is what CHERYL said...PASSION.

I have been BREATHING signs for the last 7-8 years. As of recently, I wake up at 6am to work for myself (It took me 7 years to feel comfortable in my knowledge to do so). At 1030am, I get ready to go to work at my place of employment where I make signs amongst 10 other PEOPLE that don't have the passion...they just need the work. My boss is the same as them...a scratched sign here, a broken corner there..these people are not passionate about the sign trade. I deal with others BAD SIGN LAYOUTS daily and sales people(which you will be) that don't know the answer to any question their/OUR customers throw at them. At 10pm, I go home and maybe fiddle on the CPU doing some layouts. I work for my employer Sunday -Thurs and for myself Monday-Saturday(but actually it's 24/7 for a real passionate sign artist HAS ALWAYS GOT SIGNS ON THE BRAIN wether they are thinking about an existing job or one in the works or a REAL BAD SIGN THEY SAW on their way to pick up some supplies like BEER!!!!

"MY NAME IS COREY, AND I'M THIRSTY!"

There's my soap box.

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Corey Wine
signCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
The ex-Californian Canadian
signconcepts1@home.com

"I cooked a meatloaf recipe that I downloaded off of the internet. A day later, I got a stomach VIRUS....Coincidence?"

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

Corey....
Were you addressing Myself or the Mayor on your first posting?

I am truly sorry that you think that your Boss has the right to make you work these hours and day shifts.

After 7 whole long years I would think that it's time to go on Your Own!
Remember the fact of..........
Overhead,Insurance,Materials,Employment,Workman Com.,Directory Billing plus Telephone,Family Income and Expense,Leasing or Owning of Equipment,Vehicles plus,Computers and Hardware or Software and or Brushes and Etc.,
And I Really,Really, hate to mention this one and it's call the (Fed. Canada)

Good Luck! (LOL)

Take with a grain of Salt and 2 headache pills before you digust!

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Raven/2001
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower Sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

[This message has been edited by Stephen Deveau (edited July 16, 2001).]

Posted by Sam Nitzberg (Member # 2185) on :

Wow! Thank you all for your input. I had no idea I would get such a fantastic response. I stumbled across your site while looking into this endeavor, and saw that this forum clearly had a lot of activity compared to other sign websites' forums, but yeesh!

First of all, let me apologize for not conforming to the full disclosure policy. But my reason for doing so is sound: I wanted to make sure that the Signworld salesman wasn't going to plant replies that would push me in his direction. I have done the same on the other forums. Call me paranoid. I PROMISE to reveal all pertinent info once I decide what the hell I'm doing.

It's clear that you Letterheads are artists at heart. I am too, though it's music that I have a passion for. The problem is that there ain't no way I'm making it in the music industry (tried, failed, too old now...). Any other money-making venture will be a second choice. So I've always earned my living in creative fields, but in a managerial role. I'm tired of working for others, however, and need to truly be my own boss. (I am visually oriented, and lettering actually has always been fun for me -- I just never previously thought of trying to make any money at it.) The sign industry seemed, like I said before, a good fit.

As I also said, my plan is to hire someone. This person will (hopefully) be talented, and have the passion you speak of. I plan to pay them, and treat them, well. Hopefully I will be able to generate the business, but that's where joining some kind of established business organization comes in. While I've managed business, I never had to go out and get the business. I was, in my original posting, trying to find out how viable a business signmaking really is, and whether clinging to a Signworld is necessary, or could I do it on my own. From the sound of it here, whether you meant to or not, you all seem to be saying that I should go with Signworld. If not, my lack of experience will doom me to failure.

Steve Shortreed's concern that little upstarts like me may be able to do it without putting in the time investment you all have seems pretty on-target. Sorry. Reading through all of the responses makes me think that many of you are probably better signmakers than businesspeople. But rest assured that if I do decide to do this, I am someone who will be a perfectionist, and will want to make sure that all aspects of my business are first-rate for myself, my employees, and my customers.

There's more in my brain waiting to come out to respond to some of you, but it's late, so...

Thanks again.

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Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Hmmmmmm............

Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :

Bla, Bla, Bla, bla, bla bla Who are ya?

------------------
HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping
Grants Pass, Oregon
Learn something......
http://members.tripod.com/Inflite

Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :

Ther ONLY thing that will "doom you to failure" is the inability to commit!

If you now have a job (I assume so)relax...attend a few Letterhead meets(check the menue to the left for Future Live meets and Past meets)

Meet and visit with some of the best in this trade then ask (yourself) the question again.
Do I need someone? or Can I do this on my own?

The real answer here is NO you can't do it on your own...you need customers. Get the customers and the rest is a learning experience like none youve ever experienced....it all depends on your attitude and moxy.

You've already taken the first step try the second.By the way if you are anywhere close I'd be happy to help get you started.And I don't charge anything!

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Monte Jumper
SIGNLanguage/Norman.Okla.

Posted by Chris Elliott (Member # 1262) on :

umhmmmm.....

Kram or Krammas or whoever, your reason for an alias has a slight flaw, any Signworld salesman would probably identify himself but more to the point, given the responses posted so far, why be shy?? You get my insinuation don't you? By the way, I didn't read anything in the previous posts that seemed to point to Signworld as your answer. Consider Jimmy Chatham's offer instead. Check out his references with any of us who know him or better yet give him a call. You'll find that he's a straight shooter.

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Chris Elliott
1longshot@msn.com
cell 620-845-0264

Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :

Tell us now.....i may not sleep

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Gavin Chachere
aka Zeeman
Miller Supply Co./Ozone
Signs & Grafix
New Orleans La.
www.millersupply.net
www.ozonegrafix.com

Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :

Lighten up, Letterville. Are we trying to scare off somebody who's asking an honest question about the biz? Kram, I think you may have nailed it when you said there's more artists than business people here. Many of us could probably use a dose of extra business sense, and your skills, whatever they may be, will serve you well in the many facets of signmaking. If you can find someone who does what you can't, learn from them (and us) and bypass the franchise thing. If you have 100 grand in the bank, you can cover yourself during the learning curve. Do some research, there are still underserved and niche markets out there. Start small and your mistakes won't be as expensive.
If you feel more comfortable with the marketing plan of a franchise, there are many advantages to that route, and I've met several people doing real well with it. Not every sign is gonna be a carved and gilded masterpiece. More often, you'll be cranking out whatever comes your way, and that's part of what I like about it.

Stay in touch, let us know how it goes, and welcome to Letterville.

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Sonny Franks
Sign Creations
Atlanta

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Hi Kram,

Welcome to the wonderful world of Letterheads.

You've received a lot of good advice. And, I agree with Donna 100%. I also agree with you when you say that we are probably better signmakers than businessmen. I've often said that when it comes to pricing & business, we are often our own worst enemy.

My suggestion is to do a thorough job of market research in your area. You probably already know that. And, should you decide to go into the sign business with your associate, do yourself a really big favor....learn about layout and design.

I'm sure you see your associate staying with you - he makes the signs while you run the business. That is how I am reading your posts, anyway. Don't plan on him staying long. This isn't a negative comment, but rather a word of caution. $100,000 is a lot of eggs to put into one basket (i.e.- your associate).

Simply put .... Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Best wishes to whatever you decide to do.

------------------
Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :

Don't jump to conclusions y'all. Although I agree that kram should put his signature on so we can see who he is, we shouldn't get on the defensive so quick. We surely don't wanta end up like the bunch on the other board! One strange word, and they jump down your throat. I guess now he knows that signmaking is a passion with most of us, whether we make 10,000 a year, or 100,000 a year. Most people that run these franchise operations are there to make as much money as they can, with artistry thrown out the door. I got a print shop in my town that does the same thing. Uses only three fonts on every sign he does.
One thing though, I would never pay that much money to another company just for the use of their name, etc. If you wanta start a sign business, you can get all your info right here. For a lot less money.

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John Deaton III
Deaton Design
109 N. Cumberland Ave.,Harlan, Ky. 40831 606-573-9101

john@deatondesigns.com
www.deatondesigns.com
"Don't tailgate, or I'll flick a booger on your windshield."-Larry Richmond, 11th grade english class.

Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :

Don't bother with signworld, what a rip off. By a Roland plotter, a good computer,a scanner, stick a copy of Corel in it, send me a round trip plane ticket to your city and for only $20,000 and one weeks time I will teach you everything they possibly could. I'll even provide follow up support.

------------------
George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@ionictech.com

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

http://goatwell.tripod.com

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

I wish him luck too, but why am I so suspicious of someone who won't post his profile information? Even his email is hotmail, though I found out this morning that our attorney was able to identify a hotmail account plagueing us. I guess nothing is truly anonymous.

Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :

I can't figure out why people are so hung up on the Anonymous thing. My guess is that none of you have really been stung by having your info posted on the net. Be truthfull, have you? I for one don't want my name, address, phone number....etc sittin out there for the taking. As much as Steve might disagree, our email addresses do end up getting spammed as a direct result of this website. There's no telling how much junk mail from the post office that comes in because of this same problem. I'm not even gonna go into the story I have about the police calling my house because of some idiots fun. I can guarantee there's people who visit this site, sitting behind the scenes, never heard from, who are just looking to screw somebody over. It's just reality. When people ask a legitimate question and there aren't any devious intentions...who cares where they live? I think there's bigger problems in the world like OT posts!!! But like the defenders of the OT posts say, "If you don't like it, don't read it". If you don't like who asked a question, don't answer it.

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Bruce Evans
Chromark Design-A-Sign
Covina , CA
bruce@chromark.net

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

Bottom line is on any given day on this BB someone complains about the quickie stickie shops under-cutting and muddying the waters for the sign biz. Now when someone with no art background whatsoever wants to buy one of these joints and maybe in any of your backyards, some of you want to support it. Not me. I'm not a fan of vinyl but it is a nessesary evil for all of us. The difference between us and them is we try to have some design quality in our work. I'm struggling to capture my dream of being a full time sign guy with no part-time jobs to speak of. I could use some of the parking sign and stay off the lawn biz just to get by. People seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouths. If this guy wants to learn the trade fine, but if he just wants to open ANOTHER quickie stickie shop I'm not for it. This is a site for supporting sign artists and the trade. It is not a site for those who have done the most harm to what we all have so much passion for. Call me what you will but I'm killing myself to do what this guy thinks can be done over night.

------------------
Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :

getting back on topic, a bit... (yeah, like "signing my name" on an email is any kind of proof that i'm in San Francisco...)

there are two aspects to consider:
1. the sign business
2. the sign craft

there are a lot of craftsman on this board, and a number of them are good businessmen. most of us, however, are probably more interested in making a nice living doing what we enjoy than we are in Making a Lot of Money. the highest earning sign biz in the country is a Sign-A-Rama franchise in Phoenix. that guy Makes Money. why? he's a salesman. So, you gotta decide if you want to be a salesman, or a sign crafter. If you're going to hire a craftsman, then you're going to be the salesman. that's not always considered an "artistic" way to spend your days.

I'd suggest that you get a job at a sign shop and see if you like it. You won't earn much, but you'll earn a lot.

Then, i'd suggest you either go on your own, or you sign on with a real Franchise. the sales support is more important than the "training" on how to stick vinyl on plywood. if you're gonna hire a craftsman, you can let him (or her) train you.

The points about market saturation are very good.

I'd love to hear from some of the franchise shop owners/workers who are on this board. (i know they're out there... they just don't post too much).

------------------
:: Scooter Marriner ::
:: Coyote Signs ::
:: San Francisco ::
:: don't blame me... i'm just a beginner
::

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Kram, here's some advice for you (as if you havent heard enough of it, but mine is unbiased).

If you have $100,000 to spend on a sign franchise, keep the money for yourself and purchase your own equipment and work from your home. The sign franchise is going to make their money WHETHER OR NOT you succede, and frankly they dont care if you succede or not, but they offer the support because you wouldnt sign up if they didn't, right? You still have to make the business work, which it sounds like you can with your management skills but you can get through it much cheaper, which a business oriented person should already know.

$1700 buys you the top of the line graphics computer, check out Del.com.

$1,000 buys you a fair, factory re-furbished plotter from Roland, with a warranty.

$1800 (or less) buys you the 3 most important graphics packages you'll need to be compatible with the rest of the world - Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, and CorelDRAW.

Roland will provide all the support you need for their equipment.
Adobe and Corel will support their products although many of us here know how to make those programs work efficiently in the Sign Trade.

If you have an artistic background, that's a good start.

You can setup shop in your home and work there when you arent at your everyday job. You can learn the trade (software and equipment) at home, make money at work, and work on your design and layout skills along the way. When you are ready to break out on your own, you will actually be ready for it. In the meantime you can draw clients to your home and start publicising your new business.

There isnt a letterhead here that kicks out a perfect design and layout every time, the first time, so don't let anyone fool you.
Check out the Portfolio Page if you need proof of that. Even the "best" designers here can stand some room for improvement, but dont tell them that cause these artists get reaaaal defensive when you attempt to critique them.

Before everyone gets wrapped up in themselves, that's not meant as a dig. The day you quit learning is the day you die. Think about it.. how many posts are there everyday with people askin questions that relate more to managing a business or handling clients?

How come anyone can post a layout in the portfolio page and receive constructive critiques and suggestions without being belittled as a "pathetic talentless schmuck", yet everyone jumps down Kram's throat on the notion he may get into a franchise, assuming he has no talent whatsoever?

Now...

Maybe it's just me.. but I see something sinister going on here..

Kram, why are you in stealth mode? Not that I really care...

Is it shear coincidence that your name spelled backwards is "Mark"? which would lead me to think you may actually be a letterhead in disquise, posting just to get the more sensitive ones all wound up?

------------------
Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Hey hey hey, Mike! There are at least four of us who kick out perfect signs EVERY time! Me, Si, Joey Madden and Old Paint. Perfect. Every time. If you don't believe it, just ask any one of us.

heh

BTW, Rob. I liked your post and your attitude. Keep goin' for it, mon. You'll get it.

Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :

I agree with Robs post too. Like I mentioned how much I work to get ahead and then someone with no knowledge comes by and says, "Hey y'all, I have all this money. Can I be like you?"...it's upsetting.

------------------
Corey Wine
signCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
The ex-Californian Canadian
signconcepts1@home.com

"I cooked a meatloaf recipe that I downloaded off of the internet. A day later, I got a stomach VIRUS....Coincidence?"

Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :

Evening All--
I know I'm going to get burned for this, but here goes anyway. I think some of you are reading a lot into this persons post that isn't there. OK, so he didn't "sign" his post- maybe he is a first time visitor and doesn't know the rules. Is this a mortal sin guaranteed to send him to a warm place? Aside from that, he comes across--at least to me-- as articulate and polite, states his case well, and asks advice from people who should be able to give it to him without getting all bent out of shape. I think some us, myself occasionally included, are not too willing to cut some slack to people.
Maybe it is time some of us take up worrying less about perceived threats to our livelihood, and concern ouselves more with being better at what we do, and, in so doing, reduce those threats, whether they are real or not.
I also notice that Kram hasn't come back to the BB. Does that say something about him. or more to the point, something about us?
------------------
Bill Preston
Fly Creek, N.Y. USA
wpreston2@stny.rr.com

[This message has been edited by Bill Preston (edited July 17, 2001).]

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Nah...........You're probably close to right, Bill. I'm amazed at the length and passion of this thread. But if you want to join me, Si, Joey and ol' Paint, just follow the arrows, take the down escalator and be sure to wear a bikini!

Posted by Tim (Member # 1699) on :

Well I figure your real name is Mark, so hello Mark (Kram spelled backwards)

Some great advice has been given here, so if your post is sincere and not just some BS to stir up the poop here, congrats on your future venture. Good luck to ya.......

------------------
Tim Rieck Signs
Halfmoon Bay, BC
tim_rieck@dccnet.com

Posted by Mike Clayton (Member # 723) on :

To answer the topic of your post, NO, you shouldn't. You might write prolific posts and responses, but I sincerely doubt your objectives, other then to stir things up here.

Proud to be a better signmaker then business person!

------------------
Mike Clayton
MC Graphics
Barnegat, NJ
http://www.visualnoise.com/mcg/
mike@visualnoise.com

"Youth and enthusiasm is no match for old age and treachery!"

Posted by Sam Nitzberg (Member # 2185) on :

Okay, okay, calm down everybody (including the two new threads relating to this that I see have started on this forum).

First of all, I'm supposed to be the paranoid one around here. As you can see (if you care), I have adjusted my profile showing my real name (Sam Nitzberg) and e-mail address. For those of you playing, kram is my middle name backwards, and hence, krammas. I am not any type of Signworld plant, trying to stir up trouble. I don't know if there were two shooters in the grassy knoll...

I was not out to cause any pain or trouble or anything. My original and second posts are to be taken at face value: I really am trying to figure out what I should do!

For more clarity: I do not have 100K just laying around. I will need to get a loan, SBA or otherwise, to start this venture. I have about the 40K needed to get the other 80K required to buy into Signworld plus furnishings, extra capital, etc. It's a major step.

Secondly: I visited a local Signworld shop yesterday, one who's been in business 6 years and doing well. Yes, he's mostly doing vinyl, but some art comes in every so often, he employs 5 people, it generally looked good. And he still says the initial money was well spent. And to me it seems like learning CorelDraw, etc., and applying vinyl really does look like something just about anyone with a sense of detail and a degree of patience can do. As I said before, I know my way around computers. Mike Pipes' points are well-taken, and that's the conundrum.

My current job sucks big-time, though it pays well. Any new endeavor will involve a period of little or no personal income (luckily my wife works too), so going totally on my own is scary, as opposed to being part of a network, which I may overpay for, and which guarantees me nothing. Round and around we go.

Signworld (and another similar company called SignBiz), along with their tech support, promises a network of shops all there to help if you have questions or problems. How quickly could I reasonably expect answers to my real-world questions on this or any other forum if I don't join Signworld? They also promise discounts on supplies. Isn't that, in time, worth it?

I may sound like I'm sold on Signworld, but I really am looking for other input.

Anyway, you all are for sure the most entertaining lot I've seen for a while, and will definitely keep in touch (unless, in time, I decide that signmaking isn't for me at all). No matter what I decide, I'll post that decision here.

Thanks,
Sam

------------------
Sam Nitzberg

Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :

Welcome aboard Sam. I never doubted you for a minute.

The best advice I ever got was to only listen to those that were doing what I wanted to do and/or had the lifestyle I wanted. We've been in this business since 1975 and due to Letterheads and this website, we have had an opportunity to visit many shops all over Canada and the US.

I've met very talanted artists that are starving and some with no layout skills at all that are doing very well financially. We've never been in any franchise shops yet, so I have no firsthand knowledge how they do.

I am self taught. When we first started nobody would allow you near their signshop. Sign mags were my only window into the sign trade. Letterheads was a real boost to my learning curve. For the first time I was able to pick the brains of those who were doing what I wanted to do. I believe this on-line Letterhead Meet we have going here has to be a great asset for getting answers fast.

When I was young, making money was not as important as the pat on the back and personal satisfaction of doing this business. As time went on and our responsibilities and family grew, it became very clear that making money was very important. There are some Letterheads out there that are actually making great signs and enjoying a wonderful lifestyle at the same time.

If anyone is interested in talking with a Letterhead that runs a one person sign biz and takes home in excess of 100 grand a year, I suggest you look at this link. I've spent time with Chip and his wife. This is a guy you can trust to talk with if you want to do what he has done.

http://www.sign-consultants.com/

------------------
Steve Shortreed
144 Hill St., E.
Fergus, Ontario
Canada N1M 1G9
519-787-2673
steve@letterhead.com
ICQ 316338
www.letterhead.com/profiles/shortreed/

Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :

Hi, Sam--
To answer your question about support from this forum, I think you would have a hard time finding a better bunch of people that could help regardless of whatever problem you might toss out. Heaven knows, they have helped me out any number of times, and I'm only on visitor status. If no one has an answer for you, someone darn sure knows which direction to send you for an answer.
As far as hooking up with Signworld or whoever, that's a decision only you can make.
Good luck, whatever you decide.

------------------
Bill Preston
Fly Creek, N.Y. USA
wpreston2@stny.rr.com

Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :

Welcome to Letterville Sam!

------------------
HotLines Joey Madden,47 years in the Classic Art of Pinstriping
Grants Pass, Oregon
Learn something......
http://members.tripod.com/Inflite

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Welcome aboard. Creative people are ALWAYS suspicious. I knew all along you weren't a ringer from Signworld. You're a ringer from SignPro, right?

heh

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Sam,

Keep your current job and pick up the hardware/software you need to get going.

Like I said before, you can keep the job, as lousy as it is you can still use it to bring in a steady income just like they're using you to make them money.

Work from home, keep your overhead low, start getting the word out, build your clientele BEFORE you get a shop.

When your home-based business becomes something you can no longer handle without dumping the regular job and going full time, you'll be good and ready for it. By this time you can learn the essential design/layout skills that will set your work apart from the rest.

Letterheads are happy to help out, whether it's a "visitor" like me or a "resident", the advice is just as sound and timely.
You can ask anything here.. whether it's a computer problem, if the plotter is makin a funky noise, how do you do a certain trick with software, or if you need help on a layout or choosing fonts, you will get an answer. It doesn't matter what your question is, somebody here has had the same problem or knows someone who has and can help find a solution.

I think the folks selling the franchises are kinda like people selling self-help books. They tell you everything you already know but affirm it, and you still have to work at it to make the idea fly.

I say save your money, work from home and keep that old nasty job for a while. This is how I got started, making decals as a hobby then a buddy says "Duh, Mike, why arent you selling these??".. Genious.. I started selling small stupid decals, now I dont touch those anymore but instead sell custom graphics kits for anything that rolls or floats.

By the way, I got into it for $600, the cost of my first Roland plotter. I already had the computer, I was using AutoCAD at the time which my old engineering firm bought me so I could work from home and it just so happened that AutoCAD could drive that $600 Roland plotter directly via CAD plotter drivers.

I left a high paying job too.. hey, it was even an easy job, but it simply got too boring for me at times.. I couldnt take it. Now I still do a little work for them on occassion under an "as-needed" contract basis and I use them to get free trips back to St Louis to see my family.

If you want it bad enough, you can make it work. Your gains will reflect your efforts and I dont think it matters if you go franshise or not.

I'm just saying, hang onto your money and invest in yourself, not a franchise.
They cannot guarantee you customers. Just think.. you can save that money and use it to live on for a while, or even use it for air compressors, spray guns, tools, carving tools, redwood, cedar, sign posts, SignFoam and other HDU's, airbrushes, paints, brushes, rollers... hey even get a CNC Router! man there's so much to do it's hard to pick one!

------------------
Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

Sam, I think you need to hear from some franchise type shops at this point for a fair comparison.

The one man type shop is simply run differently with a different purpose in mind. Big money is not normally the main objective here. (although nice!) Success comes in many forms. Having self fulfillment and seeing work done right I'd say is #1 for most on this board.

------------------
Graphic Impact
Abbotsford, BC, Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

[This message has been edited by Donna in BC (edited July 18, 2001).]

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

Sam
Welcome aboard!
I am with Donna on this one as Big money doesn't bring Big Happiness.

The best reward you'll get is the look in the customers eyes with a facial grin from ear to ear.
Then you'll know that that pat on the back is all for you!

Good Luck!
Save some of those goose eggs for a rainy day and don't spend it all now in hopes of your dream!

------------------
Raven/2001
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower Sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :

Sam,
First let me apologize for being a smart *ss in my earlier replies.
Like you have heard over and over in these replies...there are many questions we all want and need help on from time to time and whether you are a visitor or a resident, the forum here is always eager to give you their point of view (sometimes so many different views that you remain indecisive). I TOTALLY agree with what Mike Pipes says as well as many others. You have the business sense but, if you want a rewarding career in the sign trade, go it alone, maybe out of your home and keep your employment (your guaranteed check/cheque) until you feel comfortable. I still obtain my employment with my jerkoff* I mean my boss as I start my home based business rollin'. I got a Summa vinyl cutter 24" that I am falling in love with, Corel 9 program and really CRAPPY sign software for my home called OMEGA CUT PRO (no not Gerber Omega) I think it's also called SIGN-DEX and, no, I don't think anyone else uses it here....if so anyone, let me know, eh? I work on Flexi and Corel at my place of employment and have worked extensively on Gerber Graphix Advantage as well as a program called SIGNUS in Cali. in the past. My CRAPPY software costed me $600 I believe and my AWESOME Summa cutter costed $2500 or so. Weeks before I made my purchase, I was about to get a loan and invest $25,000+ in Gerber and supplies and such. I sure am glad the banks declined me!LOL
Anyway, like you heard before, you can do the quikky stikky one day sign shop thingy or be amonst THE FEW, THE PROUD, THE PASSIONATE. My apologies again and GOOD LUCK!

------------------
Corey Wine
signCONCEPTS
Airdrie, Alberta, Canada
The ex-Californian Canadian
signconcepts1@home.com

"I cooked a meatloaf recipe that I downloaded off of the internet. A day later, I got a stomach VIRUS....Coincidence?"

Posted by Brad Funk (Member # 1351) on :

Sam, read and reread Mikes post! I looked at the Signworld website, sounds like a huge wad of cash for what they are offering. Do you really want a sign shop that dosent use "paint or chemicals"? ...Is there really such a thing? If you really want to be in this business, start small with little overhead, and see how it goes. I jumped in with both feet and now wish i had started smaller. Hindsight!! As far as the training they are offering, the best training is trial and error. And this BB of course! Or you can send me the
$132,000 , i will train you for a year, and its all yours.

------------------
Brad Funk
Artisan Signs
Phoenix, AZ
www.artisan-signs.com

[This message has been edited by AZBrad (edited July 18, 2001).]

Posted by Mike Clayton (Member # 723) on :

Hi Sam,

Sorry for my earlier misconceptions.

Like others have suggested, you might be better off doing more research and trying it on you own for awhile.

Visit some shops in your area, find out what kind of demand there is, are they busy? Do they do alot of work in other areas?
I would hate to see you make a huge investment and have a shop sitting idle because of no work.

I bought my plotter and software in April for $5000 and it's already paid for itself.

Good Luck whatever you decide, and let us know how you are doing

------------------
Mike Clayton
MC Graphics
Barnegat, NJ
http://www.visualnoise.com/mcg/
mike@visualnoise.com

"Youth and enthusiasm is no match for old age and treachery!"

Posted by Mark Fuller (Member # 2128) on :

Sam

I did not want to take place in this thread but enjoyed reading it for the last few days,
arn't these people amazing!. They took you to the max on your conviction and also questioned their own reasons for being.

I love this board. ( your all sick, and thats what I love about 'ya )

I started from scratch (again) just a few months ago....bought a new cx24 Roland ($3,500), found out later that I could have gotten a re-furbished one for $1,200. ( Mike makes many a good point ).

Already had Adobe Ill. and Photoshop and Go live...blah blah plus full corel. I also have 12 years experience in the trade. You brush heads ...I have afull set of "sticks with hair on them", those damn Russian squirells!

To end this drawn out blah, blah....It was nice that you introduced yourself to the board and you can't help but notice how nice these people are.

P.S. I was once somebodies "boy", for three months. I knew more than he did and made him a lot of cash...I was abused and not respected...quit and started my own business. I have him to thank or curse for getting me into this trade...craft or art field.

Good luck
Mark

------------------
Mark Fuller
Fuller Signs
Keswick, Ontario
CANADA

Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :

Have you considered buying an established shop...in a location you would like...get the training from the owners...they are the best teachers. You would have the shop and the customer base...that is a big part.

------------------
Jackson Smart
Jackson's Signs
Port Angeles, WA
...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...

"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

in answer to your question... "Should I Do It?"

how about investing in something with a lot less hassle like....
"Vanilla Ice Cream Cones are Us"
"do you have chocolate?"

no, i am sorry we only serve vanilla cones.

of course i jest.

making a business investment is something you must consider carefully.
the best teacher is experience.

best of luck

------------------
Mark Fair Signs
Montgomery, Alabama
http://www.markfair.com/flash.html

Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :

quote:
Yes, he's mostly doing vinyl, but some art comes in every so often

May sound crazy, but I always thought "art" should be coming OUT of a shop, not IN. There doesn't have to be a separation
in "vinyl" and "art" either.

quote:
to me it seems like learning CorelDraw, etc., and applying vinyl really does look like something just about anyone with a sense of detail and a degree of patience can do.

Yes, you are right, anyone can type in words, and spit out vinyl.

As to your dilemma, I can only interject that you go with your guts. You have a better grasp of your goals, what you are capable of, and what you are willing to invest of yourself.
The risks are big even for those with experience, so your road won't be paved.

The experience I gained working for a creative shop before going solo, only go up in value every day. I thank Joe Rees for defining the sign business for me at such a high level.

Owning the equipment is such a teeny portion of truly functioning well and gaining satisfaction in this trade.

Let me suggest that if you keep your business sense in check, but let your creative spirit guide you, not only will it serve as a driving force, but it may make you a better sign shop!

Good Luck to you!
Janette

------------------
"When Love and Skill Work Together ... Expect a Masterpiece"

Janette Balogh
Creative Studio

jbalogh@earthlink.net

UBB.classic™ 6.7.2