The Letterville BullBoard: Windows XP First impressions

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Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :

Well, I finally got to download and install win xp RC1 (that's release-candidate 1, the first candidate for release to the public for sale). Here's my first impressions of it:

XP took longer to install than any other os i've ever installed: about 1 hour and 30 minutes. Granted this was on a 'slow' system (P233 w/96 mb ram), so Installation will be quicker with more current machines. Also, performance on this machine was noticeably more sluggish than with Win2000. Probably because of all the 'multimedia stuff' goin' on.

Haven't had a whole lot of time to play with xp just yet, but from what i've seen so far, well, I'm just not all that excited, frankly.

My humble opinion of the OS so far is that it's just win2000 with new skin, and a few extra goodies. The goodies i'm speaking of are mostly multi-media related. And while they would seem to be helpful to the novice windows user, i'm not that crazy about them.

For example, the new interface gives you info on your music files, such as artist/album information (read from the id3 tag in mp3's). However, right next to this info is a big link to "buy music online" which brings you to the CDNow/Microsoft music site to purchase music. So anyway, that was a turn-off.

There's also a mac'esque video editing program (I know, I know, it's probably no where near as good as the mac version). Didn't try it out yet, but I was surprised that it integrated my video capture card automatically (in other words, the video-capture drivers worked seamlessly with the application, I didn't have to go 'outside' the editing application to do my video capture). Seemed pretty neat.

Anyway, the biggest difference so far, is that Windows has a new (arguably tacky) skin. I'm sure there are gonna be people who love it, and people who hate it, but it's definitely different. Fortunately, there are alternate skins, and you can switch back to 'windows classic' if you like the way your 'old' version of windows looked.

I'm still checking it out: testing for stability/features/etc... So this is by no means a complete review or anything like that. Just wanted to give you a quick run down of my first impressions of the OS. I'll try and keep everybody updated on xp. If anybody else downloaded XP rc1, please post here and add your comments/experiences with it.

-shane

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Halo Graphics
Clearlake Oaks, CA
http://www.halographics.com
ntshane@halographics.com

Posted by Rob Larkham (Member # 2105) on :

I recently upgraded to windows ME. It is a 32 bit OS. My Flexi letter( six years old ) is 16 bit. I have had some lock up problems. Every time they re-invent the wheel it costs us $$$$. I guess I need to upgrade to Flexi-sign(32Bit). Oh Well

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Rob Larkham
RL Graphic D-Sign
Chester, MA
rldsigns@aol.com

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

My son loves XP. I don't have it.

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surf or MoJo
on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
Seattle WA.....!
signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
The person who laughs at himself will never cease to be amused!
http://www.thisismycool.com/signs/

From sharp minds come sharp products

Posted by Graham Hodge (Member # 168) on :

I'm just about to buy a new PC and I have the option of Win98 or ME, Win2000 would cost extra. Of the two I will go for 98. I just don't trust new versions of OS's.

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Gray M. Hodge
Cam River Signs
Somerset, Tasmania.

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

Yup me too, I have win 98 se on all 4 of my systems and I have no reason to upgrade. Multimedia extras and different skins won't make me open my wallet up. I'm getting real tired of shelling out hard earned cash just because the next " windows " is available.

I'm still using Netscape 4.73 even though 6.x is out. I used it and it suc*ed, plain and simple.

You'd be surprised at how musch you actually need to produce most of the sign related stuff we do. Before I bought the Edge, we were running a Pentium 233mhz with 128 meg of ram. The only reason I had to build a PIII is for digital printing.

I will be watching closely for you findings and pitfalls from all you brave hearted souls who will be guinee pigs for Microsofts next blunder.

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Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :

I finally learned to upgrade on the 2nd version!
New programs and OS's are ALWAYS buggy...version 2 usually has most of the bugs worked out by the brave souls who always jump in and buy anything that is new!
I am sticking with Win98SE until the new OS is debugged!

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Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !

Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on :

The tech section in the Sunday paper says that XP will have features that require you register the software with Microsoft and that guarantees that you can never use the software on another computer. The software also monitors itself and will lock up if it decides it is on the wrong computer, requiring you to go back to Microsoft and beg for permission to use your software.

XP is not on my list anytime soon. Big Brother is watching you. He is one of the richest men on earth for a reason. Draw your own conclusions. Vic G

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Victor Georgiou
AnchorBlanks.com
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1520990
Clipart CD's & FONTS
Designer Sign Blanks

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

and xp has "progams wrote to work "better" with it. same old crap...this is better, thats better....and all in all..the more they reinvent the more time you spend fixing or upgrading $$$$$ to accomadate this newer stuff...and most people are not computer savay so this is there target group.
i have a hard time convincing people that there 200-233 computer shouldnt be running anything more then win 95.....and at best win 98A....but they want WIN ME...and its a piece of crap....win 2000 is NTSF file system...and for a single computer its sorta like havin a 454 .c.i. motor in your s-10 shop truck.....looks good, sounds good, but so overpowered that you will never use what its intended for.
ive said this before i got 95B with I.E. 4.0 loaded and it emulates win98A, and is a more stable and driver friendly with the programs we work with than any other OS.
also it takes up less h/d space and doesnt have all the bells and whistles...but never gives me an problems. i have removable h/d's and i got 98A on this h/d, the wifes computer has 98 SE and my laptop is a 95B load up, installed all the programs i need for work then i upgraded it to win 98A so i could utilize the USB for my scanner and camera. this is a good way to do this as the drivers i installed with 95B(for my roland PNC-1000) will still work in the win98A environment. i still have a h/d with win 3.11 and corel 4.......there is stuff that wont run in 95 or above and does great in 3.11....and this is what XP is gona do..make all the programs you now have...sorta obsolete........newer is not always better....

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Based on the system requirements of XP alone will keep me from looking at it.

XP itself recommends having 2 Gig's of drive space, which means as you add software you will end up with at least 3 or 4 gigs of data within the XP system directory alone.

It also recommends have 128MB of RAM.. just for the OS to run.. eeeech..

Sure, drive space is cheap, so is RAM, but that OS is just bloated, plain and simple.
I have a couple OS's sittin in the closet, called OS/2 and Linux. Both of these systems can and DO run right off a single floppy disk, minus the graphical user interface, but not having the GUI installed doesnt affect how the computer runs.. cant do that with windows.

Ya'll should switch to LINUX.. it's free.. and Windows runs even more smoothly inside of it.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Bruce Jackson (Member # 45) on :

You would be well advised to investigate potential security holes in XP

In their drive to integrate the Internet (and their own .net and commerce plans) with the desktop, Microsoft may be opening you up to even greater security risks. It seems they are using raw full sockets.

This is a very serious risk.

If you want the tech guff on this,
http://grc.com/dos/winxp.htm

I certainly won't be using it. I like to control what's going on in my computer.

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Bruce Jackson
Melbourne, Australia
www.goldreverre.com

Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :

Well, I'm still checking it out, but here's some more thoughts:

1. as far as RawSocks are concerned, as long as you understand the basics of system security, you're probably okay (hint: if you've read even ONE page over at grc.com, then you shouldn't have a problem)

2. I'm torn between my dislike for 'extra features' in an os, and the general niftyness of the features themselves. I'm really starting to like a few of the features such as the bandwidth monitor, and file association 'helps'

3. I'm a bit confused by microsoft's pricing scheme. From what i am hearing it's going to cost $299 for the upgrade for the professional version. That is extremely steep for an upgrade, especially considering the fact that this OS is not much different from win2k at it's core.

4. I'm still confused as to whether this os is faster or slower than win2k. My experience has been that it's slower, but alot of people are reporting increased speed in some apps, and in the OS itself. I guess my experience isn't really all that valid since the machine i'm running it on doesn't even meet the minimum requirements. To be fair, it is not slow, however, the lagtime between requests is more noticeable than before.

Okay, that's it for now,
Shane

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Halo Graphics
Clearlake Oaks, CA
http://www.halographics.com
ntshane@halographics.com

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

Shane...Thanks for the info so far..I am liking Win2000 BIG TIME so far..only took me about 3 or 4 practice "installs" on the laptop to get me acquainted with the process and the differnces from 95/98.

I think I will stick with 2000 for a year or so..It is working well (stable as heck) and fast for me now..and the whole point of upgrading is "fast"

I would not recommend an upgrade to anyone who doesn't have a second "fully operational" system to fall back on. Most of us here rely on our computers to earn us money.

But playing around with a new OS is fun!

NOW..Ya can be like Ole Paint!..And stick with what ya feel comfortable with! DOS rules!!!!!! heheheheheh just kiddin buddy and I hope ya know it!

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Dave Grundy
AKA "applicator" on mIRC
"stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!"
in Granton, Ontario, Canada
1-519-225-2634
dave.grundy@quadro.net
www.quadro.net/~shirley

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

going back to rule #1....your computer is only as fast as your slowest perifreal(meaning stuff like scanner, plotter, printer) can work...so speed here is not the issue....workin in the program speed...is still as only as fast as the operator is....so what your perception of speed is to you is what matters....95B is faster then 98A or 98se...unless your running a computer with 256 ram and 800-1.4 gightz. i dont seem to have a problem with "speed"...i prefer "dependability"...and with the older os's i got that...and when they make a plotter that will cut as fast i or this 350 AMD thinks..then i would consider a newer os.
i also like to play with newer os's.. ihad NT 5.0(same as win 2000)over a year ago..it has a lot of good things, but at that time there were no drivers for a lot of the stuff i have..so it was useless...now with newer drivers it lot better program....np pre-vert.heheheheh

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

[This message has been edited by old paint (edited July 10, 2001).]

Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :

hmmm, got me thinking...

I guess an OS upgrade really depends on what your priorities are. You see, I make upgrades in hardware when I want more speed, and usually will jump to the newest OS when I see that it has improved stability, or features that I really need. I didn't realize that so many people upgrade their OS because of the speed factor.

Anyway, Dave, I'm glad you made the switch and win2k works for you. I'm gonna keep checkin out xp, and try to keep ya's updated.

-shane

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Halo Graphics
Clearlake Oaks, CA
http://www.halographics.com
ntshane@halographics.com

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

Shane....You are correct...Most of the time an upgrade of the computer hardware is what I do to improve speed. But I am currently running an 800 mhz AMD with 512 Ram and a 32 meg graphics card. Even with that configuration I felt that Corel 10 was sluggish. My local printer mentioned that he had the same feeling and his guru suggested an upgrade to Win 2000. He claimed that there was a noticable speed improvement using Win 2000 so I decided to give it a try.

I have spent too much on Hardware upgrades in the last year or so and figured that Win 2000 would be an inexpensive way to resolve the speed issue. So far it has done that. Maybe next year I'll upgrade to a 1.5 gig processor!

I is an interesting thing...this upgrade issue. My first "computer" (like many folks) was a Commodore 64. I bought it to play Leaderboard Golf. (Two colors and little stick figures!! ). I bought GEOS for it and thought it was real neat. My son, who at the time was leasing computers, had an IBM 286 come back off lease and he showed up at my door with it. He offered to trade me the IBM for the Commodore, even trade. I squealed and hollered about how I LOVED my Commodore and didn't need the IBM. Well...after about 1 month I loved the IBM a LOT more than I ever loved the Commodore, specially when I found out that the IBM had this neat program called CorelDraw 2 already installed on it!

I guess my point is...I resisted change once, but my son was wiser than me. From then on...I have embraced changes and upgrades because, deep inside, I know that they are generally for the better.

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

dave...you have also add into this type of thinking...what the commador was to the 286 and what the diff is between them and os then that fit on a 1.44 floppy to the os's we have now win 95B at under 100 megs to win2000 that is close to 400 megs...the big thing here is processor speed that hides the depth and breadth of those humongus os's...i gar-ron-tee you that if you put win 95B-c on your computer...it would run faster then win 2000 because of the 800 speed precessor and faster bus ....and that it has way less code to read thru to operate...so what iam saying is ..computers have come along way from 286 in processor speed at the same time os's have increased in code at 3-4 times the processor speed...so its now reaching a point of lightning fast processors...but there being slowed down by the size of the os's. i see this with my old dos 6.20 and win 3.11 hard drive...when i load the 850 meg h/d into my amd 350 with 128 megs ram...it runs like a scalded dog, so fast you cant see programs opening, corel 4 flys and ther is no lag when you change graphics on screen even in full color mode...

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :

I find it interesting through out this thread that the O/S and the CPU have received most of the attention. Has anybody realized that the sustained data rate of HD’s have not increased proportionality with other components in a system. Think that plays a part in some peoples perceptions of “slow” systems?

OP said something earlier in the thread; “your computer is only as fast as your slowest perifreal.” I think one needs to look inside the main box before going outside of the box, and IMHO, the sustained I/O of the HD is in pathetic shape and needs to be addressed.

Just something to throw out there for consideration.

Sustained HD I/O – You are the weakest link; GoodBye!

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For what it's worth

Bob Gilliland
The InKnowVative Group
Harrisburg, PA
717.564.7650
bgilliland@inknowvativegroup.com

"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge:
argument is an exchange of ignorance"
Robert Quillen

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

Sure Bob!!!!!! Go ahead and spoil our fun!!!!!! LOL

"sustained I/O of the HD is in pathetic shape and needs to be addressed."

Just when I was starting to think I knew some things you have to throw this one at me!!!!!!

Heck.I don't need any more money tomorow..I'm gonna research this sustained I/O thing out !!!!!! (seriously..I am)

Thanks fer mentioning it Bob...(I think I hate ya! )

Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :

True that on the hard drive transfer rates. However, they aren't going to get much faster anytime soon...or more reliable for that matter....we all just LOVE our cheap (slow, unreliable) hard disks!

-shane

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Halo Graphics
Clearlake Oaks, CA
http://www.halographics.com
ntshane@halographics.com

Posted by DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :

I'm sticking with my old "vendor abandoned" software until it pays for itself. I have 3 dongles, CasMate, Inspire and GA, all run in Win98. I don't need any other stability issues so I have isolated those systems and frozen them as production computers.

New signmaking software will have to wait about 5 years and will get an appropriate OS at that time along with a terabyte disk.

ernie

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Balch Signs
1045 Raymond Rd
Malta, NY 12020
Wholesale Routing

http://www.balchsigns.com

Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :

Bill Gates has to just love Intel. Every time they juice up their processor, it gives Microsoft the opportunity to add some bells and whistles to Windoze, tout it as the newest, latest, greatest, must have OS, and get millions of people to shell out more bucks to pad the Microsoft coffers.

Notice how each new version doesn't come out until there is another major processor speed jump? Windoze creates the mother of all bottlenecks in CPU speed because you have a monster program that requires the newest, highest speed chip to keep it from being even slower than the last version. Program? YES, program. DOS is the OS. Windoze is simply a program that is suppose to make DOS user friendly. I didn't know user friendly includes crashes and freezes up the whazoo.

The government doesn't seem to be able to stop Microsoft from screwing everyone over, but you can. JUST SAY NO!

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Dave Sherby
"Sandman"
SherWood Sign & Graphic Design
Crystal Falls, MI 49920
906-875-6201
ICQ: 21604027
sherwood@up.net

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

OP brings up a great point about running old programs on faster computers. I once tried to run that classic arcade game, JOUST, on my PC.. it was a no-go situation. My hefty pentium133 processor was just way too quick for that 286 game. I couldnt even see the ostrich flap its wings it was so fast, so I couldnt time the "flaps" to make the bird fly.

Seriously though...

Hard drives have come a long way in the past 15 years.. they went from not even being a part of most computers to being one of the top ways people rate a potential computer purchase.
True, they look at the size and not the performance specs, but even so the performance has increased tremendously.

People need to look at what they're using the computer for when choosing hardware.
Most people that buy computers are wasting their money.. look at all the 1.3GHz, 128 MB RAM, 20 Gig HD internet machines and word processors out there... this is what MOST people are using their computers for!! Now they HAVE to buy those hefty machines because the operating system and bloated software dictate what kind of machine they can use.
It's like the neighbor that buys a new car just to have the newest car on the street. People treat computers like a status symbol.. they gotta have the greatest and latest..
Well, they arent getting the greatest and latest because they're buying cheap hardware from Best Buy and Gateway (or as i like to call them, GetAway).

When I bought this computer (the very one Im on now and use everyday) 8 years ago (YES!! 8 years ago!!) I bought the best hardware that was available at the time. It still runs great, it's stable as hell and it's fast.. the processor isnt actually related to system speed as much as people think.. it's the drive speed, RAM performance and even video performance that make more of a difference.

The problem with people today is they see these great performance numbers but they pass on the chance to buy QUALITY parts, thinking "Hey, they're all made in China and they're all the same anyway"

Well, that's simply not true. All parts are not equal. They may be built in China and Japan, but to this day the best electronics are DESIGNED right here in the good ol' US.. or Germany.
Just like with signage, any old idiot can MAKE a sign, but it takes intelligence to DESIGN one!

Anyways... people that have hard drive problems have them because they buy cheap crappy drives, whether it's physical damage to the drive or just data being corrupted. Windows plays a part in the data corruption too though... well, actually Windows can thrash a drive as well, creating physical damage to it but it's rare (but it DOES happen).
People pay attention to the drive size as well, usually thinking bigger is better, and cheap and bigger is supreme. Well, how do you think they can make a huge AND cheap drive? HA! Gotcha! They use cheap parts and make them sloooow. Since the drive mechanism is slower, it takes longer to read that bigger drive and since the parts are cheap the reliability has gone down the tubes.. plus the cheap drive makers use the same drive mechanism for all their drives, no matter what the size is.. The quality drive makers develop faster drive mechanisms for their larger drives so you realize the same performance no matter which size drive you get. You'll also notice that the high end drive makers (I'm talking real high end stuff here, nothing you would ever find in a retail store) dont even have 60 and 80 gig drives available unless it's a Network Storage Device which falls into a completely different catagory.

People dont even look at the video performance of their systems and in a day where multimedia is the rage and digital graphics are taking off, vid performance is very important. If you are playing games or doing complicated graphics, one of the newer video cards like a GeForce with 32MB or 64 MB of memory ONBOARD will benefit you tremendously. The video card can reduce the video processing load on the main system processor, speeding the entire system up.
Web browsing doesnt require much video power at all but you could still benefit if you're like me and keep a minimum of 5 browser windows open at a time. =) Gotta do something while pages load, like look at another site. =)

Having lots of RAM is good for people doing *intense* bitmap graphics and multimedia or even multi-tasking but the average Joe using Win98 for internet and word processing can get by with 64 MB, and that's only cause Windows will hog most of it. 80MB is good for people doing Vector graphics, they dont require much RAM but that also depends how bloated your vector graphics software is.

Processing power isnt required for vector graphics, they use math to draw the images and that's pretty easy and efficient, but large bitmap graphics with all kinds of filter processing do require a little more juice, although more attention to fast hard drives (for fast image loading) and fast video cards (for faster/larger displaying) will make things flow smoother.

You still get what you pay for, even in the computer market where prices are dropping every day.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

I forgot to add that a seperate hard drive controller card can make a nice improvement to system performance.

I have a SCSI card to run my hard drives (a pair of 18 Gig Seagate Cheetah Ultra2Wide drives spinning at 10,000 RPM) and the card takes controll of all drive operations which frees up the processor. Newer system boards have built-in drive controllers but the addition of an UltraATA/100 or UDMA-66 drive controller card for IDE (non-SCSI) system still makes a dramatic improvement.

Controller cards offer more efficient drive use, plus they usually have good caching or buffers on them to make things smooth.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

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