The Letterville BullBoard: A real PITA problem using writeable cd backups

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Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

I hope someone has a cure for this problem. When I write to a cd for backup, it of course saves the files as read only because they cannot be changed on the cd. When you transfer the files to another computor, they remain read only and you must convert them one file or group of files within a folder, one at a time. You cannot make changes to a file without doing this. Whats the Cure??

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@swbell.net

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

Jack...I am awaiting a response to your question since I am putting in a CD-R drive into my puter on Monday. (My CD drive bit the dust on Friday so I figure I may as well go for a writer this time)

Just a mention of the backup system I have been using for the last 3 or 4 years. It is a Panasonic PD drive . It writes to 650 meg discs which are enclosed in a cartridge and are re-writable. I regularly open files on it and use them/modify them on the fly. I have had excellent luck with them and intend to continue using them for backup purposes. Wouldn't it be possible to use re-writable CD's and have the files available for modification without having to change the attributes of the file?

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Dave Grundy
AKA "applicator" on mIRC
"stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!"
in Granton, Ontario, Canada
1-519-225-2634
dave.grundy@quadro.net
www.quadro.net/~shirley

Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :

No Problem Guys,
When you restore the files back onto the computer, just right mouse click on the selected files, go to properties, and turn off the read-only attributes.
Havin' fun,
Checkers

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a.k.a. Brian Born
Harrisburg, Pa
717.652.9073
members.home.net/sign-it/
This isn't Burger King, you can't have it your way.

Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :

I just recently moved all my PLT files ( which are job files in Gerber ) to a cdrw, when I formated my hard drive last week, Then I restored them to a new operating system. I haven't had any problem what so ever working on exhisting files and resaving them.

I don't think it is CD-R related Jack, but then again I haven't encountered that problem yet.

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Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com

"Some people's kids"

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

What about using a removable hard-drive which is mirrored to the main hard-drive? I've been using a rewritable cd to backup my files, but it spans more than 15 cd's today. With 12x HP cd writer, it takes entirely too long.

Any other suggestions?

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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Jack, just like Checkers said.. when you put the files back on the computer, select the ones you want to change (In Windows Explorer), right click, select Properties and uncheck the Read ONly attribute.. problem fixed.. YOu can also select all the files, Click on the FILE menu and select Properties from there.. OR.. select all the files, then hit Alt F R R A (in that order) then <enter>.. same thing as before, just another way of doing it.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Glenn,

Uhhh.... OK.. you dont need to backup your complete harddrive if you arent making changes to everything at the same time. =)
No need to burn 15 CD's a week for backups.. =)

You can use mirrored drives like you mentioned, in fact that's how I do it, plus I have an external 40 Gig drive with a FireWire interface and a CD-RW (but I never use the rewritables, just the write-once media). I have two 18 Gig drives IN this machine, one is a mirror of the other and the mirroring is done instantly (whenever I save a file). The drives are identical in everyway, from the operating system to data files to the installed software.
If one drive takes a dump (which hasnt ever happened, they're very high-end drives- Seagate Cheetahs) I just restart the computer so I can get into the BIOS setting on my SCSI card, and set it to boot from the other drive.. Viol-a.. I'm back up and running instantly.
This is pretty handy for cleaning the drives up too. I can wipe one drive clean while windows is still running off the other, then reboot and select the bare drive to reinstall Windows. When that drive is running again, I can copy working software and data files over whithout reintalling everything, then wipe the second drive and mirror the "fresh install" back over.

I have the 40 Gig drive in the closet and use it for bi-weekly backups of the complete system, plus I have a CD-RW I use for weekly backups of artwork files ONLY. I archive the old jobs so I only have very recent (say within the past couple months) working files that I have to worry about backing up and they easily fit onto a CD.

I would suggest a tape backup but they really suck. They're good for monthly backups of everything, and only as long as you dont have to restore everything from the tape. They're slow as molasses, they dont last long at all, and they arent too reliable if you re-use the tapes.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Mike,
Those 15 cd's are just for my art files.

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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Glenn, you got problems..

If I were you, I would get a DVD-RW drive.. Lots of storage space, familiar format.

Or just keep track of the stuff you *NEED* to backup every week and use CD's.

Are ya really backin up 9.8 GIG's worth of files every week?

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

Mike, Checkers, I do that, but it still takes hours to make them all writable. It will not allow you to do a folder or folders, etc. It makes you either do one file,or (select all the files in that folder). My wife's business has an enormous amount of files and folders, as do my signs and art files. One at a time, or a folder at a time is way too slow. Obviously their are reasons that files are read only on a cd, but I have never needed to use that function as a single user. If they can auto transfer them to a cd as a read only, why can't they be transferred back as a write file??? Jack

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@swbell.net

Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

Glen, The hard drive/ghost deal works great in one respect. It is a full mirrored backup of your harddrive, drivers, system files and etc., but I don't use one for constant file backup, because as the hard drive files degrade by getting lost, etc., your backup will be the last system backup which is probably too pristene to say the least. I would probably want to have 2 harddrives to be doing this. One thing about the ghosting, it will save you a ton of time, if you ever need to reprogram, if you keep a clean copy. If I get a virus, I can also just save off work files and reformat and be done in less than 30 minutes without answering all those damn questions.....

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@swbell.net

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Jack,

The files on the CD are read only just because the disc is read only. When you copy the files, they retain the read only attribute.

The only way to change the attribute in Windows is to do it folder by folder, but at least you can change many files at the same time.
Otherwise, you might find a file copy utility that allows you copy the files and change the attributes on all the files, as they are being copied. Try searching download.com or tucows.com for file utilities.

I actually find that using a DOS window to change the attributes is faster than browsing to the folder and selecting the files.

To change the attributes via a DOS window, the command would be something like "attrib C:\Windows\Breaks\Too\Easily\*.* -r"

That would take all the files in the C:\windows\breaks\too\easily\ folder and take away the (r)ead only attribute.
This way you can just type in the file path instead of wasting time browsing to it via Explorer and going through the other steps.
It still requires you to do it folder by folder but it is faster than clicking.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Shane French (Member # 2098) on :

Jack,

You can do this on a windows 2000 machine very easily. Just select the folder right-click and uncheck the read only box (as described above), the OS will ask you if you want to apply the changes to all the subfolders and files as well.

-shane

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Halo Graphics
Clearlake Oaks, CA
http://www.halographics.com
ntshane@halographics.com

Posted by Jack Davis (Member # 1408) on :

Shane, I have Windows ME. It doesn't allow this feature of all subfolders, at least to me. Wish it did.

Mike, that is exactly how I do it, but don't have the DOS luxury anymore in Windows ME. Either way, with a multitude of files and folders, it is a real pain in the butt. In actuality I suppose most files do not get changed, so they can be left read only. I have found that you can make the change in the OPEN box in the program. I didn't realize that you could make the change there. Not all progs will allow this, but most of the ones that I use do.

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Jack Davis
1410 Main St
Joplin, MO 64801
www.imagemakerart.com
bronzeo@swbell.net

Posted by Dennis Veenema (Member # 833) on :

Jack; (and anyone else who backs up a lot of files) with the price of hardware these days I have no clue why anyone would keep going through all the motions of backup cd's, etc.

Have your machine set up with a couple of large hd's 60 or 80 gig, connected with a IDE RAID (redundant array of inexpensive disks)controller, set in a RAID 1 array.

When it's setup in that way it mirrors anything written to disk 1 on disk 2. If disk 1 fails disk 2 can carry on or restore the information to a new disk.

Both hd's should be the same size since the array will operate at the smallest disk's size (if you have a 20gb and a 40gb, it will only use 20gigs of the 40gb drive).

The controller card can operate up to 4 drives, and leaves your motherboard's ide's open for your optical drives(cd-rom, cd-rw) or even a large slave storage drive.

Like I said with the price of drives and hardware right now you can't go wrong.

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Dennis Veenema
The Sign Shop
Dresden, Ont.
&
GigaBytes Plus

"Don't worry, it only seems kinky the first time."

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Mike,

Yep.....Its pushing 10 gigs now. I do a lot of repeat work for Edge prints. Many of my files are between 15 and 80 megs. Kinda adds up pretty quick considering the volume we've been doing.

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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@nc.rr.com

Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :

I'm with you Dennis,
If you dont want to do the RAID thing you could try a small utility I've been using called Abatus Mirror Server from
http://www.abatus.com/en/index.htm
I've been using it for several months and its been 100% stable and solved many of the inconveniences of backing up.
You tell it which drive to mirror and onto which drive you want it mirrored, set up an exclusion list of file types and/or directories you dont want mirrored and leave it alone.
There is other software around that does the same thing but I found them either bloated or caused one or both machines to slow up during the mirroring process.
This bit of software has been one of those ones that has been a pleasant surprise in that it works better than expected and does more than expected.
The best $49.00 spent on software in quite a while.
HTH,
David

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David Fisher
D.A. & P.M. Fisher Signwriting
Brisbane Australia
da_pmf@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by David Fisher (edited June 12, 2001).]

Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :

I backup my drive once a week (if I remember) by using a removable hard drive that connects to a Promise IDE controller.
I want a backup off site in case of fire or theft and I figured if I'm mirroring my drives and get a virus, both drives are toasted.

I can write to the drive in Windows but I usually use Western Digital's drive utility on bootup to dos and copy the whole thing over to the backup. Plus I backup all my data and graphic files to a zip disk. I have a CDRW and use it every now and again but it is painfully slow to access and copy with.
The tape drive got tossed years ago, life is too short and hard drives are too big.

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Artworks
Olympia WA

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