The Letterville BullBoard: Reeeeeeeaaaalllly stubborn vinyl ghost left on painted surface.... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Anyone have some other ideas for getting rid of a vinyl ghost on a jetski?

I've received an email from a buddy of mine, saying that the temporary registration numbers we put on his jetski (which have only been on there for about a week) have left a really stubborn ghost behind.

I've already suggested that he try adhesive remover to make sure there's nothing left behind, and that he use a wax/silicone remover in case the letters pulled up any wax that we didnt get with the prep fluid (which would remove the wax in the surrounding area, hopefully eliminating the ghost), and even suggested he try applying Rain-X to the area because that works so well on windshields to get rid of the ghosts left from removing vinyl.. figuring the vinyl is gonna pull up wax and silicone when removed so the Rain-X will replace it.

He's even tried buffing it with polishing compound and an orbital buffer because he was polishing the rest of the jetski anyways, but no luck on the ghost.

Short of breaking out the 2000 grit sandpaper I am out of ideas. I've never had anything that stubborn.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :

Hi Mike:

About 6 months out in the elements; maybe less in AZ.

The ghost is not adhesive residue. It's a more pristine gel-coat on the fiberglass, which has been protected from the elements by the previous vinyl image. Fleet graphics folks know this all to well, whenever they install a new graphic on an older vehicle.

The only solution is to tell the client to sit tight for about 6 months. It'll go away.

Regards,

Jim

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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.

Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

You don't need me.......Jimmy got it!

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Jim,

OK... just give it some time then..

It's just really odd though.. the paint is pretty new.. it IS a painted surface because nowadays jetskis are made of SMC plastic, not fiberglass.. and the fact that I painted it the weekend before Memorial Day weekend makes me pretty sure of that too. =)

We put the numbers on for Memorial Day weekend so he could ride, then he just took them off after this last weekend.. so there hasnt been too much time out in the elements, unless the Cali-AZ deserts work faster. I know my truck gets sandblasted quite a bit, but it sits outside all the time.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :

That's great news (except that the paint may be fading fast). One good weekend of racing around on the lake oughta do it. Your ghost will no longer haunt you (sorry, had to say that).

Rgds, Jim

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Jim Doggett
Vice President
Summa, Inc.

Seattle, WA USA
jim@summusa.com

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

I'm just curious Mike...You painted the thing a week before the numbers were applied? Or did you paint it the weekend before Memorial Day and stick the numbers on the next day? And what kind of paint did you use? (paint manufacturer/brand name and type of paint?)

I am just interested for future reference.

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Dave Grundy
AKA "applicator" on mIRC
"stickin' sticky stuff to valuable vessels and vehicles!"
in Granton, Ontario, Canada
1-519-225-2634
dave.grundy@quadro.net
www.quadro.net/~shirley

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Thanks again Jim and pierre.

Dave, I painted the ski a week before applying the numbers.
The paint is PPG's Omni line, Urethane. I know it's cheap stuff, that's what my buddy picked out and actually the paint jobber recommended it since we are talkin about a jetski, which really takes a beating. We even went with a single stage cause again.. it's a jetski.. no sense in making it more work than needed if it's just gonna get beat on.
It still looks good though.

Here's a shot of it..

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :

What caused it was the vinyl acting as a sunscreen on the black....REMEMBER...the Omni line is cheap for a reason...it has no UV agent in it, so if he's had it outside bingo...just think how quick sunburn jumps up where you live,except for the area covered by your shirt,etc....and if youre painting a str8 color like black,white,red or something non metallic,stick to the single stage for a deeper color,using a clearcoat system with that stuff really wouldnt have helped in this case....and definitely DO NOT try to color sand it,you may get the image out...MAYBE,but pull more color off of there and the rest is gonna break down quicker than a bar stool under a fat womans *ss

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Gavin Chachere
aka Zeeman
Miller Supply Co./Ozone
Signs & Grafix
New Orleans La.
www.millersupply.net
www.ozonegrafix.com

[This message has been edited by Gavin Chachere (edited June 05, 2001).]

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

Stupid question on my part.
But could a 3-m rubbing compound pull it out?
I don't know and am only asking!

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Raven/2001
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower Sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :

Mike..Ya answered your own question..In my humble opinion..Yer customer wanted cheap..he got it.

I think that what you mean by "one stage" is a single process of painting (as opposed to a two stage process) Correct?

If you used "one stage" paint, even catalysed, it takes more than a week for the paint to be sufficiently cured/kicked to accept even a strip of masking tape being applied to it!

In my limited 25+ experience at shootin paint on vehicles and vessels I have found that it is best to go with the best quality..unless it only has to last for a "season"..In that case there are no guarantees.

believe it or not..I've been there before!

Posted by Stevo Chartrand (Member # 2094) on :

Perhaps Meguires swirl remover? I have tried it a couple times with a orbital buffer and it seemed to work pretty good.

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Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :

Gavin is right about the Omni. Cheap stuff. We use it on our race car. It changes color on a daily basis

The stuff seems to never completely cure or quit drawing up. The first time I used it I had a little trouble either running it or getting orange peel. By the end of the year the orange peel was completely gone. By the way did anybody mention this stuff is really cheap.

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George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@ionictech.com

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

http://goatwell.tripod.com

Posted by Douglas Worden (Member # 125) on :

Time wont necessarily remove the image.......what happened was because the sun was a new powerful element in the drying process...the sun actually warmed and expanded the base....everything except the numbers which didnt expand at the same rate.............if that color has no clear you will have to block sand that area with 1500 wet paper then re-buff.....

fresh paint and hot sun will expand every base a small amount...and if you have stickers........ghosting..................

this is an expansion shrinking problem around a vinyl skin...........Cyber

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http://www.doccyber.com

Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :

Welllll.....hate to stick my .02 in here,but this is not "an expansion/shrinking problem around a vinyl skin"....the problem here is the material....read above...the material they picked for the job does not have an adequate UV agent in it,and the resin used in the product is of minimal quality...the vinyl created mask or a shade,the light could not penetrate...bingo,diff colors.

He used a one stage urethane,and thats not an enamel...a catalyzed urethane activated with the correct isocyanate load(proper amt of hardener) will be fully cured as its ever gonna get inside 48hrs,if its not,you did something wrong i.e. skimped on the hardener etc that caused it to have probs,and enamels because of their nature may to a degree never fully cure....Dave...from what you were saying sound like you were using either Centari or Imron...email me or catch me on chat if you want more of the story...
Now,as far as expanding/shrinking goes....this may occur to some microscopic degree,but always remember,paint is stupid...it doesnt know to get hot in one spot,and not as hot in another,or shine in one spot more than the other...in the urethane,you have one uniform skin,which means if it expandsits all gonna expand,whether its covered or not,and expansion or contraction will not have any kind of affect on color or lightfastness of the pigment...if that was the case, your car would change color by the seasons of if you hosed it down on a hot day....this prob won't occur in a basecoat/clearcoat setup either,because once again, cross-linking takes place and you have a uniform substrate,so if you see a basecoat job where the base is cracked,its because the base was piled on too heavy,not allowed to dry,and when the clear grabbed it,it pulled and caused it to open up.....now,things like off gassing and solvent popping do occur and can be pretty harsh,and yes are primarily caused by the vehicle sitting in the sun,but they won't change the color

Mike,since you sanded and polished the thing already and hes triedbuffing it,sanding it again isnt gonna help,its just gonna break down another layer or two of what color is left and just make things worse 3 months from now....tell him hes just gotta live with it or stick the new numbers in the same spot

Gavin

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Gavin Chachere
aka Zeeman
Miller Supply Co./Ozone
Signs & Grafix
New Orleans La.
www.millersupply.net
www.ozonegrafix.com

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :

This is a prime example of a cheap job comming back to bite you!

The customer wants a cheapo job because it is only "temporary"....yeah! Right! That truck door, 4x8, window, etc.....2 years later looks like crap! AND now they complain to anyone that will listen about how you did a crummy job and ripped them off! Freinds and strangers will do this to you!

My advice is to lightly sand it and respray a coat of quality paint! Otherwise, it's "You picked the cheapo paint...sorry buddy! Live with it!"

Been there, done that...but not anymore!

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Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Luckily, the replacement registration numbers are the same font, same size, plus an outline so they should hide the ghost with no problems really..

I guess in a couple years when he decides to repaint (and he WILL repaint, just for something new and different) none of this will matter anyways.

So.. I guess it really isnt that big of a deal. Hopefully it doesnt fade back to white by October though. =)

Maybe he should mask off the rest of the ski and let the ghosts fade, to even it all out.. (I'm jokin', BTW)

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by J & N Signs (Member # 901) on :

Registraton numbers integrated with a nice flame decal would take care of the problem..

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Mario G. Lafreniere aka Fergie.

http://www.onlink.net/~mgl

jnsigns@onlink.net
Chapleau, Ontario home of "The World's Largest Game Preserve"
Spring is upon us,in Shania Twain Country. Farewell snow,here comes the mosquito!

"I cut it twice and it's still too short!"

Posted by Douglas Worden (Member # 125) on :

Gavin paint is stupid and cant shrink behind a vinyle sticker....are you knew to this business........OUCH

Not only will the suns heat shrink commercial grade paint but will leave an IMPRESSION clear to the primer on fresh paint........

Your probably right about the ghosting if it is just in a color shade but if there is a visible area that is showing the decal its shrinkage.

Now just because you took a jab at me ill take a jab at you

You never see shrinkage your customers do........you sound like a production bodyman...................

Next time add to the post .......dont regulate your comebacks like your the answere and everyone else is wrong.................open mouth insert foot.....paint does shrink differently in the sun and thinnner layers will shrink different then thick layers or do you live by a different science............hmmmmmmmmmmm

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http://www.doccyber.com

Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :

Well Doc....new to this buisness...yeah...1963,and before that my grandfather was a PPG factory rep from 1946 to 1963,and i and everyone else in the store are certified by PPG,Sunbelt(now valspar) Montana products,ASE and I-CAR,and we also attend several seminars/classes/workshops each year to be qualified distributors of other products because we feel its our duty as a distributor/supplier to be informed,knowledgeable and prevent this type of misinformation...and no,never been a production bodyman,i'll leave that end to those who know everything.....now,if you're seeing that severe of shrinkage you're doing something wrong,period. And,you're missing your own point...never once will the "expansion/contraction factor" shift the color of the paint,and better yet,shift it only in one 4"x18" area. If you have proof of this,send me 10,factory/manufacturer documented cases of this problem,which won't be too difficult if it's such a common one and then i'll believe you.
Now since you've shifted your response to the fact that different layers of paint/primer etc will shrink at different rates,yes,they will...BUT if anyone having a problem with some type of severe shrinkage like that on a finshed product,they simply have not done it correctly...PERIOD..and yes i do defer to the fact that usually any type of paint testing in no way compares to the amount and ability of painters to bench chemist things into complete disrepair.Trust me..NOTHING and i mean NOTHING should or will leave an impression all the way to t he primer on a finished product except a hammer....if anybody has layers of paint shrinking that severely after the vehicle etc is painted,you have some problems in application or preparation b4 the application that's causing it.
If you go back and re-read what i wrote...i didn't regulate my answer to look like everyone is wrong and i was right...4-5 people got the problem b4 i did,i just expanded on it. I guess if anybody believes this,they'll also believe another one i heard not long ago..."well,yes the metallic finish has stripes in it,but its not my fault,it's the paint...but tits gonna straighten itself out once it sits in the sun for awhile and you drive it around...see how its on the hood only? the heat from from the motor and the sun and the vibration when you drive will cause a sonic oscillation of the molecules in the paint,make it heat up thru vibration and cause to metallic to settle itself out and the stripes to disappear"......yeah..right...

Now if anyone still doesn't believe this...get a basic,entry level textbook on body and fender repair and look up 'shrinkage'...and see what it tells you,you might be surprised...But Doc,thanks for telling me how to write an answer,i'll keep that in mind,the only one that has opened his mouth and inserted his foot here is you and now you shifted the subject of the question to deflect that...as far as adding to the post..what more would you like? I can sit here for the next 3 hrs and quote thixoligical and viscosity ratios of the mixed product,isocyanate loads,volume of solids,drying times, VOC ratios or anything else thats boring or useless and noone wants to hear,and quite frankly it won't help...what he used is junk,he knows that,he put a decal on it,that acted as a screen,the rest of it faded. So Doc....am I "knew" to this buisness?? No, i just "knew" the answer,along 4 or 5 other people,i guess we're all eating shoes and george perkins is looking at his neighbors racecar. It wasn't a personal jab Doc,it's just very common in this buisness for ego and quick thinking to produce good intentioned mis-information

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Gavin Chachere
aka Zeeman
Miller Supply Co./Ozone
Signs & Grafix
New Orleans La.
www.millersupply.net
www.ozonegrafix.com

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Mario, yep the ski is getting lots of flames although none are where the numbers will be going because it's a tricky compound curve in that area and my buddy didnt want to risk messing up there. He lives in the L.A. area, I'm in AZ so unfortunately it's a little inconvenient for him just to run over and have me do it. =)

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Douglas Worden (Member # 125) on :

Gavin interesting response..........i hope i didnt get ya all fired up with a few post................

I thought it was irresposable on your part to say paint doesnt shrink......

And all those crtificates on the wall means diddly to a street artist who never runs into shop conditions you fancy pants painters get to practise in when your getting certified.........ouch............sorry my first encounter with a so called knowledge boy was disasterouse on his part............he couldnt tell me what his 3 layers of clear would do after it left the booth and sat outside in a NewEngland freezing winter.................not that thats a hard question..........he didnt know.................

havnt trusted knowledgeboys since...............

S yea you might be right about a lot of things.....ive seen street wear and ma -nature do different....................

When you can keep 40-70 coats of lacquer stable for over 10 years and still have it look as good as the day it was polished.................i think you can say ......PAINT SHRINKS......hehehehee....................dont loose any sleep over this.............i would like to listen to othere comments you might have.....you definatly have some experience in the flourecent shops..........Cyber

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http://www.doccyber.com

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