The Situation; It's 10:30 in the morning and a custumer is expecting to pick-up his signs (five 18x24s) at the end of the day. He later calls back and say he'll pick it up tomorrow at 1:00 in the afternoon instead. Great, that means I have some time to spary paint the vinyl to the color he likes cause there is no vinyl that will satisfy his choice of color. After all, he did pick out the color from a hardware store. The spray paint was made by Krylon, supposedly a paint that has an ingrediant that sort of bonds to vinyls, as they say.
Anyway, I sprayed the vinyl let it try completly good 25 or so hours. You would think the paint would be dry right? Well when the customer opened the packaged signs, all of them where sticking hard and started to peel of, exposing the under color of the orginal vinyl.......It was a mess and an expensive one. I re-did all of them. I'll never use the stuff again unless it's on a sign that's not going to be touched.
Anyone else ran into this or similar problem with Krylon spray paints. It does have it's advantages though.
Glenn DeZion Signs 46-020 Alaloa st. M-5 Kaneohe, Hi. 96744
------------------ de signs
Posted by Steve Barba (Member # 431) on :
When in doubt, use warerborne primer, then paint as usual.
------------------ Steve Barba is the proud owner, president, & sole employee of Sturgis Sign Works. "B0LT" on the chat room thing. 209 Oak Drive Sturgis SD 57785 sbarba2616@dtgnet.com 605-720-7667
Posted by Curt Stenz (Member # 82) on :
Glenn, Krylon was recently purchased by Sherwin-Williams, and the paint formulation has been modified by removing the ingredient that has made Krylon adhere to vinyl.
The "new' cans have a slightly different treatment of the logo of the "balls" on the can. Why do things need to change?
Ive found with Krylon that I have problems with it lifting if i spray it heavy ... very light coats... this is if it was the compatible type... i prefer using sem viny paints and nazdar vinyl inks.... never lifts the only Krylon i use is there gold metallic...
------------------ Del "aka" badge trimline@canada.com Holden, Alberta
Posted by Dana Aaron on :
What did you do to the vinyl first before you sprayed it? I always cleaned it off, the hit it with a light spray of One-Shot aerosol clear and let that dry. Then did the Krylon thing, and let dry.
Never had a problem with it coming off.
How did you package the signs? Were they completely wrapped so that the air couldn't circulate? Maybe they needed more time for the paint to cure completely.
What did you put between the signs? I used to use the backing paper from vinyl if I had to stack anything... with the shiny side on the front of the sign. Usually never stacked anything on top of each other until it has lots of time to be really dry. And if I did it was usually only for a little bit during delivery or something. I was always worried about stuff like that happening.
Sorry to hear of the troubles. Hope things go lots better now.
Glenn, investing in an Iwata RG2 is really something you should do. These airbrushes are big enough to do large format painting on films and many other things, besides being a really great airbrush. Auto-Air paints with BondAll and Catalyst will spell the end of your problems with painting films. Krylon type painting is really an amatuer's method. You can learn to handle that RG2 in 10 minutes. Give it a shot. You'll increase the scope and income of your shop in one swell foop!
------------------ St.Marie Graphics & Makin' Tracks Sound Studio Kalispell, Montana stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com 800 735-8026 We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
Posted by Ken Morse (Member # 1799) on :
This type of problem with rattle can spray paints is sure a common one. I contacted One Shot's general manager and advised him of the changes in Krylon, they returned the communication with a forward to their lab techs. I am awaiting further communications and when I receive it I will post it on this site for all. I think that One Shot would profit if they sold spray paint that could be used with vinyl, don't you agree?
------------------ Ken Morse Jamn Graphics Santa Cruz, CA
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Get vinyl screen printing inks and thin them out so they can be sprayed.. be done with it.
I've also heard (from Del Badry) that SEM colors in rattle cans work quite well too. I know they stick to automotive trim and fabrics like crazy so they most likely grab onto vinyl films as well.
------------------ Mike Pipes Digital Illusion Custom Graphics Lake Havasu City, AZ http://www.stickerpimp.com
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Don't forget to clean it with RAPID PREP first.
Roger
------------------ Roger Bailey Rapid Tac Incorporated Waikoloa, Hawaii
Posted by Glenn Racoma (Member # 1846) on :
Hey thanks folks for all the well said professional advice. I will try some of your advice like the Iwata gun. I just recently purchase a great deal on a practically new (3 months old) SilenAir 116 psi (max.) air compressor. Retailed for $700-$800.00. I was blessed buying it for 120. plus doing a sign to the owner valued at $80.00. He just got disinterested in using an airbrush so of course I took advantage of that. Next purchase is probably a good air brush. Oh and by the way Pierre, using Krylon spray paint was strongly suggested by some known sign artists in the Sign Business magazine of which mentioning names are not necessary. They may have mentioned the change in content of the newer paints not having that particular ingrediant that bonds to vinyls. Also Ken thanks for contacting One Shot supplies here in Hawaii cause they are open to professional suggestions coming from real-life situations that would encourage product conciderations.
Aloha all, Glenn Dezion Signs 46-020 Alaloa st. M-5 Kaneohe, Hi. 96744
Note: I will follow up on One Shot on spray paints that works on vinyl cause I do agree with you on a product like you mentioned.
------------------ de signs
Posted by Glenn Racoma (Member # 1846) on :
Hey Ken Morse, just want to apologize for the misunderstanding on your contact with One Shot. I confused it with the local sign supplier here in the islands. What you probably ment was the company that manufactures the 'paint' called One Shot. Sorry, just disregard my reply. But I do agree with you that maybe a reputable sign paint company such as One Shot, or maybe even Matthews architectural coatings might be interested in you suggestions.???
aloha, Dezion signs 46020 alaloa st. M-5 Kaneohe, Hi. 96744
------------------ de signs
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Zion,
I have never used Krylon to paint vinyl, nor do I want to try at this point. But I will share my successes with one-shot and a roller or an airbrush.
It sounds to me like you may have been a little rushed on this job, wich is never good for painting. Anyway I have successfully rolled out one-shot ontop of enamel receptive vinyl, let dry over night and had a nice hard surface in the morning to cut my letters.
Also Airbrushing on vinyl can be done with similar paints, but now I try to use a layer of Ticote first. Ticote bonds to the vinyl and the paint bonds to the ticote.
With all enamels you will need time to do these jobs, and like Joey Madden always drives home, doesn't matter what use use for paint if you don't do the necessary preperation.
I always use 3m High performance for my vinyl / paint jobs and I always scuff the surfae with a 3m light grey scuff pad.
When applying I have now switched to 3M low tac application tape as well.
I hope this helps but test these methods for yourself first.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posted by SIGNBOY99 on :
Not trying to be a smartass or anything, but when you have a customer with an odd color request, why cut vinyl and spray paint it, why not just paint the sign? Seems to be a lot of headache with, what seems to me is a very simple solution..... Don't get me wrong, I use vinyl too, and I have airbrushed on it just because I have read that you can do that. It just seems to me that if you are going through all of the trouble to use paint, why not just apply the paint directly on the sign.
------------------ Mike Murray Murray Signs Freeport IL USA "A business with no sign is a sign of no business"
PROUD supporter of this website!!
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Anticipating the formula changes is one of the factors that prompted SuperFrog to come up with his own line of rattle cans for vinyl. There's also an outfit near Sacramento called Exciters that has a line of rattle cans made just for vinyl.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Oh, for the faith of a spider! He begins his web without any thread.
Posted by Glenn Racoma (Member # 1846) on :
Bob Rochon, does Tricote work as an undersurface for pre-finished aluminum panels? I've had problems after airbrushing a color that had to blend (dark to lighter). The area that was lighter tend to lift off with the application tape (medium tack)after laying down the vinyl graphics. Again, would Ticote be the remedy for this situation?
I would have to say no off the top of my head. ( I really don't know )
As I do not have the can in front of me I can not exactly say for sure. Ticote is manufacured from Chromatic and is a binder for vinyl based materials, such as banners and of course vinyl.
If I read your post correctly you are fading the background of an aluminum sign, and when you applied the vinyl the application tape lifted some of your paint.
When I have to blend a panel if the colors were say red to yellow. I would paint the panel all yellow first, then I would wait untill it is set up a bit then spray the red into the wet yellow paint. This way the spray would be locked in to the thicker coat of yellow. Most of the problem with airbrushing coming off is becuse it is a fine mist laying on top of another layer. If not clearcoated then this spray is very delecate and will most likely come off. If you spray into a thicker layer it is absorbed and dries into the base coat.
The trick here is to not spray the second color into the first color while the first color is too wet. It will "sink" into the first color and dry a lot lighter than wished for. This technique takes some trial & error and of course the drying time of you base coat will depend on color, reducer, and weather.
When the panel is dry you will have a nice shiny durable finish that even medium tac application tape will not harm.
But I have switched to the low-tac for safety sake. I have had some jobs go to hell in a basket, so to speak.
Just remember if you don't prep the panel first even a clear coat will not help you.
This week we will be spraying a sign with House of Kolors instead of enamel. That process is a bit different but the prep part is just as important.
Check out this job we did last week, it is all high performance 3M vinyl with sprayed with one-shot enamels and then sprayed with frog juice for high gloss. The final application was applied with 3M low-tac tape and we had no problems.
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
------------------ Bob Rochon Creative Signworks Millbury, MA bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
[This message has been edited by Bob Rochon (edited April 16, 2001).]
Posted by Del Badry (Member # 114) on :
Using SEM vinyl paint and Nazdar Vinyl inks, ive never prepped the vinyl.... and in 8 years have had 0 failures.... within 30 seconds or less of spraying ive placed masking tape and pressed on it hard... no lift...... try this stuff... it lets you do jobs with quality and speed... many times I cut something and within 1/2 hour have it sprayed weeded and pre-masked... never once have i had a problem with it lifting when pulling off pre-mask. or a problem with it down the road..... Vinyl Ink and Vinyl Paints stick to vinyl PERIOD........
------------------ Del "aka" badge trimline@canada.com Holden, Alberta
Posted by Glenn Racoma (Member # 1846) on :
Bob that is an awsome sign design. Colors and layout is just great! That's the kind of stuff I'm into. My knowledge of surface prep along with material compatibility is just now being expanded and has been my downfall.
And Del Aka, you're are right regarding vinyl paints (inks) on vinyl as being the most compatible combinations. But I worked in a shop 9 years ago using the stuff and it is a out-right braincell killer, to say the least. As you know the stuff lingers in the atmosphere for hours, sometimes weeks regardless of ventilation available, the unseen chemicals I heard, 'absorbs' itself into the interiors of the shop's walls, tables, etc. But yes, it does work. But I made it a promise to myself I won't expose myself to that levels of intoxication.
It's a shame that Deka doesn't seem to want to support this site, because their lettering enamel is pretty good stuff! I use it on banners, and never had a problem! No fumes, lead, or sovents! Dries quick, too!
------------------ Si Allen #562 La Mirada, CA. USA (714) 521-4810 ICQ # 330407 "SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"
Brushasaurus on Chat
Gladly supporting this BB !
Posted by Glenn Racoma (Member # 1846) on :
Hey Si, but dose it work well on pre-finished aluminum panels with it being airbrushed on. I'm starting to do a lot of airbrushing fades on letters and graphics. That's seems to be happening here where graphics are color blended. Just wondering. I'm going to give it a try. Deka is not sold here in the islands, so I'ld have to order over seas. Here, we have to be aware of the shipping and handling cost. It gets very expensive.
Glenn Dezion Signs 46-020 alaloa st. M-5 Kaneohe, Hi. 96744
