The Letterville BullBoard: delaminating vinyl on lexan

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Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

O.K., get ready to read because I've got a lot to write..lol

I am presently doing 60 signs for an outdoor skating rink. 20 signs are done.
The customer has requested that we put the vinyl on the back side of the lexan in reverse so that you can see the lettering through the front. The purpose of this was to eliminate the cost of sintra or styrene as the actual sign board. The customer was told by us that the best solution for this type of signage was to use sintra or styrene as the sign and then put the 1/8" lexan over top to protect.
But, in doing her research the customer was told by the plastic company that sintra/styrene would not hold up for 5 years but the lexan would.
So, we put the vinyl on the lexan. After 2 weeks of the signs being up, the vinyl has delaminated. first it cracked, and now it is actually falling off. We used 2ml spartan/avery vinyl and on a few there was some 3ml macal vinyl. Both these vinyl are supposed to have a minimum of 7 years exterior life. We have used all different colours and different lots of vinyl...so I can't see the vinyl being the problem. We had preped the boards with methyl hydrate. I thought this may have been the problem so I did a test cleaning the board different ways. I used methyl hydrate, soap and water, windex and rubbing alcohol. Applying the vinyl both wet and dry. The result was the same for all, but some took a little longer to delamiate. I'm so frustrated, because we have to replace the first 20 signs and I still have 40 to go. I don't want to do anymore until I have a solution. Understandably the customer is getting frustrated with me as well. She still does not want to go to the styrene or sintra solution...wich I still feel will solve the problem. We have done many lexan signs for backlit signage and never had this problem. The only difference was, is that we put the vinyl on the front of the sign. The currant signs that are up are directly in the sun. I thought at first that with the weather changes that the lexan was shrinking and expading. The customer consulted 2 glass companies and was told that lexan does not shrink and expand that much. This I know is not true because lexan does shrink and expand. My main concern is not thay I may possibly lose the remaining of this job, but I don't want the customer to be unsatisfied or possibly suggest to other potential customers that we do not know what we are doing when we have done everything possible to come up with a solution. I also don't want this problem to happen again in the future. Maybe someone can shed some light so I can get this job completed. Your help will be very much appreciated.

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

[This message has been edited by Brenda Beaupit (edited February 06, 2001).]

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Hi, Brenda......need more info. Is the lexan actually "Lexan", or a polycarb of unknown origin? Is it the UV type and if it is, did you note which side was to go to the "outside"? Is it clear polycarb, or frosted on one side??

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

Hi Pierre
The product is actully lexan with a UV. The product is made by GE. I honestly did not know there was a front or back of lexan. The lexan was covered on both sides with a plastic coating. I removed and lettered on the printed side of the cover. The other side did not have any printing on the cover.
The lexan is also clear.

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

[This message has been edited by Brenda Beaupit (edited February 03, 2001).]

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Boy, that should have had a designated side being UV. Was the premask clear or blue? UV lex has a definite "preferred" side for copy. Typically it's ID'd. Personally I don't remember ever having premiuim film roll off UV lex, but then our stuff comes with and identified side UV side. If the answer doesn't lie there, I'm afraid I'm stymied.

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Whoops! Wait wait wait.....Did you, in any way, prep the surface of the Lex??

Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :

Boy. You'd think that dad would read the whole post. He's a guy.....what does he know. Of course you prep'd it. Did you prep only the one side? That being asked, was it the side with the film protector on it or the other side?

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Girls carve too!
Behind every good Woman, there's a man.............waiting.

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

Alcohol (other then application fluid) is the only product you should clean with.
Throw away the "harsh" chemicals,and the window cleaners with their amonia(which damages vinyl and adhesive) and or their silicone(this sure won't aid in bonding).
The other thing to think about is the material you use to "wipe" with during cleaning.
If you wish to avoid problems(leaving residues)buy the CHEAPEST paper towells from the GROCERY STORE,don't use cloth, or "lint free/static free" paper towells, nor "super absorbant", all of these have chemicals and will contaminate the substrate.
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Ian Wilson (Member # 177) on :

I have had trouble with poly carb in the past and it always has been the uv stable on thanks for the info on the differnet side Pierre as the one we get is not marked either I am going to talk to my suppliers this could cure my problem too as I thought I was doing something wrong

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Ian Wilson
Signmaker Toowoomba City Council
Cnr Anzac Ave & Stephen st
Toowoomba Queensland Australia
may all your toubles be little ones
The man that never make a mistake never makes anything

Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

Hi guys!

I'm not sure which side is the front of back of the Lexan. Both sides have a film on it, and I removed the side that had GE lexan written all over it. It does not say on the cover whether or not this is the side where the UV is on. I always use lint free paper towels (bounty). I usually only use soap and water to clean things and or Methyl hydrate. I don't usually use straight alcohol or windex, but when I contacted the plastic company this was the advice I had received from them.
I only preped the side that I was lettering. I left the film on the other side until they were installed to avoid scratching or damage while they were being transported.

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

If your paper towells say"lint free or super absorbant" then you are contaminating the surface !
Heck don't take my word for it, just feel the Bounty and tell me your hands don't feel all slipery !
These towells have "chemicals" how else would you make paper do these things ?
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Kevin L. Kleinhans (Member # 1263) on :

All Lexan products are designed with a outer surface ( to the sun).When covered with plastic film the side that has lettering on it should be the outside. If both sides have lettering, one should designate that its the outside surface. Prep on lexan should be whater or rubbing alcohol only. A dry application should be used but if you would rather do a wet application i would recommend one of the application fluids available. Dont mix your own ( soap and water)

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Kevin L. Kleinhans
Alma Signs
(Signs Be Me)
Alma, Michigan
517 463-6851

Posted by Dennis Veenema (Member # 833) on :

I'm taking it that these are rink board signs.
First of all the customer should not be consulting with a outside company of any form since they only want to protect their own products.

We've done a couple of complete arenas, and always the lettering goes on styrene covered by the lexan.

Lexan has a nasty way of releasing gases, especially when subjected to sun. Since you put the lettering on the inside, when the material outgasses it attacks the vinyl since it has nowhere else to go.

In this case the UV side of the material makes no difference since it releases gas in both directions.

The Lexan sold here does not come marked on the UV side other than the GE lettering and some times it says with it "this side out". Other than that you're suppose to know. The blank side is for lettering.

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Dennis Veenema
The Sign Shop
Dresden, Ont.
&
GigaBytes Plus
"Where the plus is the service!"

Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :

You must remove the protective covering at least 24 hours prior to application of vinyl graphics. After the mask is removed, outgasing occurs for many hours after. If you install the graphics to soon, your bound to have trouble on second surface applications.

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Duncan Wilkie
aka signdogwww.commercialsigns.com
Edmonton, Alberta
Home of the 2001 World Athletic Championships "The Worlds"
www.2001.edmonton.com

Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

Thanks guys for all your input.

I was talking to another plastic company today regarding this problem. They asked me if the lexan had a MR coating on it which is to protect from scratching and scuffing.
I'm not sure if this lexan does or not as I was not the one that purchased the lexan the customer was. It's also not marked on the cover.
Anyhow, they said that if it has this coating, then no paint or vinyl will stick to it, do to it's silicone base protection. has anyone heard of this before? If this is the problem, I can't understand why the plastic company would have sold this lexan to the customer knowing what they were going to do with it. And....the plastic company is also aware of the current problems and has never suggested this could be the cause.

I will have to check with the customer to see if this could possibly be the problem.

I'm also waiting to hear back from GE. I have e-mailed them explaining the problem.

Although I think maybe dveenema and others may have answered the questions.

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

So... wash off the coating of silicone with Rapid Prep !
Just a thought
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

Roger..
What is the ingredients of Rapid prep?
Is it an alcohol base, and would I still be having the same problems as I did with cleaning the surface with alcohol?

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

Well Lets put it like this;
1- there are hundreds of diff. formulas for alcohol.
2- Most people use isapropyl,(not the one to use)cause its relativly cheap and avail. at hardware stores.
3- Rapid Prep has a "form" of alcohol,as well as 4 other ingrediants.
5- think of it like sharpening a knife, a profesionel first sharpens the blade then he "hones" it to do a specific type of cutting,We hone the "main chemicals" with the other chemicals for a specific purpose.
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

What are the four other ingredients?

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

Those secrets are what help pay my mortgage and car payments !!!
Sorry...
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Brenda Daley Giuseppin (Member # 37) on :

Well here goes.....I spoke to Bob at GE plastics.

I also found out that the lexan used according to it's code number is not UV coated (it was supposed to be) or MR coated. It's just plain clear lexan with no front or back to it.
Apparantly what is happening is the lexan is outgasing and trying to release moisture. Because the lexan is installed against a wall, there is no place for the outgasing and moisture to release except to attack the vinyl adhesive. The solution would be to oven bake the lexan to completely dry it out and let it release. This is still not guaranteed it will solve the problem because the moisture will still build up between the lexan and wall for the lexan to suck up.
This does not happen when vinyl is on the front facing out, because the sun is shinning on the vinyl and allowing gases/moisture to escape.

Oh, and also, alcohol based products are the correct products to use for something like this. Water based cleaners will only add and trap more moisture under the vinyl.

So, basically Dennis already answered this for me on an earlier post. Thank you Dennis!
You de man! haha

Now my delema is, how do I deal with this regarding my customer. We did not purchase the lexan (customer purchased and supplied), but we did do the signs. In quoting the customer we did not mention this could be a potential problem because we did not know. The plastic company also new what was being done with the lexan and did not mention the potential problem, probably because they did not know (although they should have been able to answer this question if they are selling the product).
So, who pays for replacing the signs?. The customer will not feel they should because they had trusted both the plastic company and us to know what we were doing. Is this my responsibility to fix? There was nothing wrong with the vinyl I supplied or the production/preping of boards....I did do everything right, but not knowing the lexan would react this way.
Any advice?

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Brenda Beaupit
Classic Graphics
Kemptville, Ont
CANADA

Posted by Dennis Veenema (Member # 833) on :

Wow Brenda what a way to learn things like this eh!
In my book because you did not supply the lexan, you are not responsible for the result.
All you are really guilty of is a lack of experience.

However to keep the customer happy maybe see about making a deal. Offer to redo the signs on styrene, and that they split the cost (mark it up high first though)

That's about the only thing I would do, but to expect you to redo them at no charge is out of the question.

Anymore questions like this e-mail me.

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Dennis Veenema
The Sign Shop
Dresden, Ont.
&
GigaBytes Plus
"Where the plus is the service!"

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

So, lets see now, if I put vinyl on a vehicle that had just been repainted but was not cured and it bubbled up.
WHOS fault is that ?
Should I have checked to see when it was painted and with what ?
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

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