The Letterville BullBoard: what do you think causes release liner to stick to vinyl?

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Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

Now that's a long title to a post. I have one color that the release liner is clinging to. I am sure many of you have had this problem, resulting with more hours picking than planned on and frustration to boot.
What do you think is doing this? I always
thought it was dampness or humidity but the manufacturer tells us that the blade was cutting too deep. It didn't affect any of the other colors or jobs of the same brand.
??????

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :

ya could be cutting too deep, or that Vinyl may be older than you think. I had some brown once that did that...it was "brand new" to me, but it had been sitting in a warehouse for a while...

that COULD be a factor here...

Barry

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Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting
Clinton AR
5017456246
ICQ 17430008
"Imagine the Possibilities..."

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Deb, you mean I'm not alone in my T.L.P.'s?
(tearing liner problems)

I've wondered about this too. It is noticable that the tears do start at the cut line of a letter. And since it looks like blade depth is the culprit, I'll offer you this.

I moved to signs from the printing trade, so I know a thing or two about paper, having toured manufacturing plants, and studied its characteristics for 10 years.

What I found in vinyl transfer papers is the way they are applied to the raw vinyl itself.
Paper has a "grain" or direction when it comes squishing out of the pulp bath ( a vat of bleach and chemical treatments) giving it a direction kinda like coroplast. Thats why you can tear a newspaper from top to bottom easily, and can't across the columns. A simple experiment: take piece of paper and spray a mist of water on it, the curl is the grain direction.

So, what I discovered is the grain is going with the tear when it sticks to the vinyl. This is why it's easier to turn it 90 degress, or reverse directions to get the liner off.

The vinyls where the paper grain runs the 13" way I never have a problem with. Ever lay a taped graphic down only to watch the humidy raise it up like a rising crust pizza, while other remain flat?

The curve indicates the grain of the liner. Graphics that curve like an airplane hanger when layed face down is good, which means they ran the grain 90 degrees in the direction we weed.

I used to work with NCR - that carbonless paper, and avery adhesive papers in 36 x 48 sheets. We sent back plenty of defective paper due to poor coatings of adhesive, and NCR (which have teenie tiny bubbles of chemicals that "pop" when you press on it with a pen leaving a blue impression in your checkbook)

I suspect the thin layer if wax coating that is spayed on is not up to specs when tears occur, which is why It takes an act of God to get the paper off the vinyl (use soak it with soapy water and scrap it with a finger nail - thank you Jesus!) instead of it simply peeling away from another direction.

Add to this the possibility of a single drop of water from condesation, a rooftop leak or a careless paper plant operator, and you'll weaken the paper fibers which will be prone to seperation when pulled apart.

But since we are the end users, theres no way to unroll vinyl and "sample" it before we buy. If you have too much trouble with that roll, return it, it's not worth the hassle, and guess what, they (the manufacturer) have never complained when I do it.

Knowledge about paper put us on an even playing field if ever they should balk.

sorry to ramble on so long.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

I have never let schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain

[This message has been edited by Mikes Mischeif (edited January 26, 2001).]

Posted by Brian Stoddard (Member # 39) on :

A couple of things could be happening there. If the liner is coming apart where you cut the letters than you probably cut too deep, I have had trouble with some intermediate stuff like Gerbers Quatum and the rep finaly admitted that the liners are not heavy enough. If the vinyl is just staying on the liner and will not stick to the transfer tape than you could have some old vinyl that had a bad case of "plasticizer migration" (boy do I feel smart now!) I cut a whole 50 yd roll last month, had it my weeder do her thing and found out that it was not going to release. My supplier sent me a new roll but I lost a few hours... thats the way it goes sometimes. Hope that helps...

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Brian Stoddard
Expressions Signs
A few puddles east of Seattle

Posted by Jerry Mathel (Member # 526) on :

Hi Deb,

Over the years I've had two or three rolls that had the same problem. In each case the supplier replaced the vinyl at no cost with no questions.

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Jerry Mathel
Jerry Mathel Signs
Grants Pass, Oregon
signs@grantspass.com

Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :

From my experience:

1 Too much force on the cutter. Blade cutting too deep.

2 When using the wet app. method, getting the release liner wet.

Just a note:

The minimum downforce for premium film, saved in my cutter settings, is 100 grams. A couple of days ago, I chucked in another cutter(resharpened by "Bits n Bits") and had to override the minimum setting to 75 grams.

I guess the bit was TOO sharp as it was cutting through the liner with the knob turned all the way down.

Good Job Dudes!

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Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
creators of "woodesigns"
"autograph your work with excellence"
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

Posted by Greg Gulliford (Member # 170) on :

Around my shop we blame it on the Gremlins!

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Greg Gulliford
aka MetroDude
Metro Signs and Banners
1403 N. Greene St. #1
Spokane, WA 99202
509-536-9452

mail@metrosignsandbanners.com

Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :

As stated earlier, cutting too deep will often cause this problem. It is possible for one color of vinyl to cut just fine and the next, at the same pressure setting, to be cut too deep. This is because there are different weights (thicknesses) of backing paper.

If this should be the problem, one solution is to cut a small test square when you start a new roll of vinyl, particularly when you're cutting something large that could be expensive to recut.

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Don Coplen aka "SaintPete"
Coplen Designs
St.Petersburg, FL dcoplen@mindspring.com

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

Let's see here.

Vinyl: high performance dark teal (brand new roll)(brand new version-one extra year warranty and price hike from $35 bucks to $43 bucks) and used within 2 days of purchase; this is the one I had problem with

Vinyl: metallic gold, dark green exact same purchase and grade, no problem
same blade depth.

Vinyl: old high performance light teal, same blade depth, no problem

Last twelve jobs: various high performance vinyls, no problem whatsoever.

The blade weight may have been the problem,
however it tore and stuck outside of the letters and only on some of the letters. I could not see any impression of the blade in the back around the letters at all.

I brought the roll to the supplier and they told me to adjust my blade, it was definitely the only problem.
I started to unroll a foot of the material on the counter and didn't find any problem.

But from past experience it usually deteriorated under moisture circumstances. I have never complained since it may have been my fault my vinyl got in that situation at times from humidity factors. Even though it has come from the warehouse that way, I dealt with it and lost time also. But there comes a time that after so many years, one needs to mention it, since it is brand new. I will adjust my blade and see what happens.
muchas gracias, Deb

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :

Very interesting, Mike Duncan.

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Brad Ferguson
427 S. Sycamore
Ottawa, KS 66067
785-242-9924
signbrad@apip.net

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Most of the answers can have something to do with it, but one that ocurrs more than the mgg would like is that the paper CAN be made with too high a clay content. It can also happen when the film is transferred from one carrier to another to interlock with a second or third color. The excess material removed from the primary color will take some of the silicone "release" agen dwith it and overlaying a subsequent color web will be more likely to bond with the carrier. (All this crap comes from working for Arlon in the 80s)

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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)

Posted by Bob Yunque (Member # 1936) on :

Deb,
I would think it would be pretty obvious if your cuts were too deep because the release paper would be lifting at the cuts but still releasing when you separate it from the vinyl with a x-acto.
When the release paper feels like it's glued to the vinyl then it's old vinyl, it got damp, or it's cheap release paper.
I ran into a terrible problem with this at a shop I used to work at when they got a load of vinyl at a "great price". I had to use mineral spirits on the back of the release paper to get the vinyl to release. The owner really "saved" a lot of money on that deal.
I've been using Oracal 651 intermediate vinyl for the last few years and have never ran into that problem with it. It always releases easy.
Happy vinyling,
Bob

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Posted by Glenn Hall (Member # 1877) on :

Use 3M Scotchcal Electrocut it has a clear plastic liner.

You can cut this product almost all of the way through the liner and it will still release.

The added bonus is that it works great for multi layer graphics.

It cost more but after you use a little you'll love it.

" it only cost a little more to go first class"

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Glenn Hall
Hall of Graphics
Toledo, Il

Posted by Rick Cooper (Member # 375) on :

We use brand A and hardly ever have a problem but another supplier wanted us
to use their brand X and it was terrible as far as tearing. They said it was, of course,
"operator error" - the blade was cutting too deep. I told them I didn't have the
problem with the other brand and that's where we ended it. So I just use Brand A.
I think from this and from reading the other posts that some papers are less forgiving
than others when it comes to depth-of-cutting. Personally, I don't want to fuss with it
as much as it would take to get it "just right" every time and I don't think my plotter
is that precise either.

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Rick Cooper
Sierra Sign & Award
Lake Tahoe, USA
www.engrave.pctrader.com
$$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$

"The early bird gets the worm but the second
mouse gets the cheese."

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

I started to write back to thank all of you guys for the info. It is still a mystery when I try to figure out which vinyl has which problem. I now figure it could be either/or the blade or the humidity with the essence of the liner, glue, etc.
Some of the above, and most of the above.
Some interesting concepts. I would be writing individually, but I spent a lot of time picking backings last week. I do know for a fact that it can be dampness too because of a situation last summer where I got carried away with a spray bottle and got it on the vinyl. It resulted in the same problem of backing problems. I learned a lot from you and have this post bookmarked for future reference for my suppliers also!
Peeling vinyl will NEVER be the same!

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

Deb, you didn't say what brand vinyl ?
But I would like to say that (without nameing brands) I have helped people out with this and other problems (lack of adhesion)only to find out the "high performance vinyl" they purchased at cheaper rate,had NO high performance charectoristics (sp).
I think some of the "discount" or import,(cheap) high performance vinyl is not that which they describe by that term !
Its easy to write a vague term like "premium" or "high performance" on the literature !
Also,thanks to Pierre and Mike M. for bringing some good info. to the issue !!
Too bad the manufacturers don't make everybody aware of this !
Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

I don't mean to be blunt on this..

But Roger and others are right about HP Vinyls..
Does this mean the end product is good?
Or does this mean that all the product is equal.Top and bottom materials...

Some will state the life term of 3-5-7 years but do not tell you of the standing time on the shelf.
Others with better backings will stand longer.
Someone stated about the Electro Static plastic backing...
Great product as the backing will never absorb water or moisture..

All vinyls do not like direct heat or sunlight or humidite if standing on the roll for too long of a time!
Don't know why but it starts to break down the adhesive and starts to bond with the backing..
The glue used is a slow agressive.. and works best when used fresh from the roll...
The bonding agent is something that has to seap into the micro pores of the surface that you apply it to.
That why you tell your customers that please don't (Put it through the car wash today! but allow it to stand and cure in the next few or more days!)
(Glue is Glue!)
The longer it stands on the roll the more it dries.
You want this to happen, (Only when it is applied to the vehicle or surface of the signage.
As far as the cutting being to deep then turn the vinyl with backing over
and if it is cut through both, a little trick is to buy some cheap boxing or package tape and apply to the back of the liner.Cover all the cut marks..Now you have a liner that will still come off in somewhat of a full piece.

Hope this helps!
But if you still have a problem then take it back...
I will assume that your supplier is someone with onus...

Raven/2001

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Raven/2000
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Carrier (liner) and film gloss are different for the following reasons. The gloss on vinyl film depends on the "casting" paper. Cast (premium) film start out as a liquid in a 55 gallon drum. It's pumped/flowed onto the casting paper at the head of the coating line. A teflon bar, set to the intended thickness of the film, "spreads the liquid evenly across the web of paper. The paper moves through the "oven" with the film being "baked" at an even temp and flow. The gloss finish of the casting paper determines the gloss of the film, since the surface of the film is now face down on the paper.

At the other end of the coating line, the film is rewound onto another carrier and the casting paper is rewound for reuse. The film is then passed through another coating line and the adhesive is applied, and, at this time, rewound with the adhesive side against the final carrier/liner.

This carrier may have more or less "clay" content, and more or less Silicone Release Agent. These are the variables that determine the release or bonding tendencies of your particular film.

If you have a "matt" finish on your film, then you know that the "casting paper" was a low, or no gloss. BTW.....ever see a roll of premium film that has a weird streak or thin smear in the surface? That happens when a tiny bit of foreign matter comes up against the teflon spreader bar and the boys, eating their Hostess HoHos, don't notice it for a few feet. They can't correct it there and depend on the girls at the rewinding stations to spot it and put one of those "beloved splices" in the web.

There will be a test on tuesday. Bring your own pencils.........NO borrowing from your neighbor!

:^)

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

It is Avery, high performance, in this case. It is the new product, guaranteed for the extra year, (nine, I believe).I cut as soon as I got it home.

I did call as soon as this happened and had to get other products so I made the long trip to another city. But, when I got there they told me it was definitely the blade. I only hope that they are correct because time is money and I can't afford to take the chance of them being wrong in future jobs. I don't mind if I am not in a rush, but these inconveniences can cost time and therefore angry customers when dealing with deadlines.

I spoke to another company in another state that sells the same product and the sales person told methat the new vinyl line it is the exact same vinyl as the Avery high performance 5-8 year, only the manufacturer is adding the warranty on to it. I wonder how true that is? I would rather have the old stuff back at seven bucks cheaper. Oh well, I am still curious. (This would make a great science fair project instead of the paper towels, now wouldn't it!!!)

I have had this happen occasionally with all grades of vinyl, even Gerber. Never have I had problem with the clear backed vinyls. (They are really beautiful substrates to work with.)

It wasn't always moisture from my shop, some were right out of the box.

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by Rick Cooper (Member # 375) on :

Hee Hee, Deb- Avery HP is the "Brand X" in my post that had the delamination problem! Also, it happened whether I cut it on the plotter or with the laser.
Maybe Avery ought to note this discussion, buy some calon (oops) and reverse engineer their liner and copy it.

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Rick Cooper
Sierra Sign & Award
Lake Tahoe, USA
www.engrave.pctrader.com
$$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$

"The early bird gets the worm but the second
mouse gets the cheese."

Posted by Brian Ellis (Member # 1952) on :

Hi Deb

You have had a lot of advise and all of it is sound. I used to be with 3M and also I used to distribute Neschen Vinyl in the UK. I often came across this problem.

You are cutting to deep. Thats it.

But why?

I would suggest that your plotter blade is damaged. Don't forget the plotter blade is very fine bit of engineering and can eas'ly be damaged. This could be the cause and why your vinyl manufacturer is telling you the vinyl is OK.

More help, regards

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Posted by Rick Cooper (Member # 375) on :

Yes, I agree that is the cause- but it is my experience that some vinyl makes and models are more sensitive to it than others. Too often, industry reps just pass every problem off as "operator error". Instead of each of us having to micro mini adjust our plotters before every cut it is more efficient to find a material that is more forgiving (and thus superior). Maybe then other smart manufacturers would find that out and make their material more "user friendly" to win back customers. Isn't that how are system works? IMHO

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Rick Cooper
Sierra Sign & Award
Lake Tahoe, USA
www.engrave.pctrader.com
$$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$

"The early bird gets the worm but the second
mouse gets the cheese."

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Actually "blade depth" is pretty much a mfg cop-out. On carrier with the CORRECT amount of clay in the formulation, you can STILL cut too deep and not have a problem. Period.

The delamination occurs when the clay content is too high and it separates from itSELF. It's much easier for the PR guys to tell you it's your fault. Without a doubt, don't cut too deeply.......just score it, but the bottom line rests with the mfg, and, like us, (present company excepted) they make mistakes too.

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

We are doing our homework on this, I see. I know that it is at least a backing problem, not just a blade depth problem.
for instance I could use

Brand A: high performance red and have the problems in most,
Brand A again, same blade, ten minutes later, but in blue, and have no problems.
Brand A: again two weeks later, maybe black, no problems (same blade)

What about the times when I honestly accidentally spilled or sprayed water on some cut vinyl and it acted the same, peeling on the back?

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

Accidentaly spill ANY liquid where it can touch the carrier and youse gonna eat it, mama!

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

Pierre,

I have only sprayed water when I was in a hurry and overcrowded, while the backing was on. Only three times since 1980, come on! I handle the vinyl with kid gloves. And that was this past fall. You know, it was a revelation, to see what moisture does to the backing. Ironically, there were no blade cuts at all on one of the pieces, and it acted like that. Anyway, it was isolated to those three times.
There is no spraying done around this job that I am referring to. In fact, it is all dry application.

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :

I BELIEVE YOU! Don't you guys beleive her?? I do! How bout you, Dave?? SHE believes her! If she believes it.......I believe it! Yep.........I do!

:^)

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

tee hee,

I don't believe it! can you believe it? I could have a lot more fun with you guys if I wasn't peeling the doggone vinyl backing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT.

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

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