There has been something on my mind for quite awhile concerning the moral struggle between being today's version of a good representative of the sign trade by using the tools available to work with VS. the tools of old used by the folks called craftsmen. (I'm hopefully trying not to sound sexist and I know many great women of the trade. I'm just using given terms for my Illustrations) So why should there not be apprenticeships for those who want to start from square one? At a Letterhead meet I attended in the fall there was a gentleman who brought a handful of young student apprentices all the way from L.A. to Petaluma, and allowed us to see what these kids were up to with thier skills. Doc Guthrie, who runs the program at L.A. Trade Tech, is giving these people the best of both worlds by offering sign painting & sign making using all the tools a person could possibly imagine. I would like to see a summary of what some of you who come to the board can contribute in the way of experience and knowledge. Such as...what have you learned, how do you feel about defining yourself as a skilled "Sign Maker" in a manner that lends to the trade, and sharing some tricks that you use to put a special touch on some of the projects that come through the door. To me that makes the term "Journeyman" come to life. As a young man in my 20's I dreamed of doing all the things that I watched Sign Painters, do but had little chance of going there because of the closed shop system. You had to a relative so to speak to get "in". Now, I feel blessed with all this exotic equipment around me to work with and I've just about given up the brush,except when that just right project comes up where you kind of feel the moment. I guess what I'm bumbling around about here is to see what sort of thought others may have concerning the profession and what sort of learning curve has brought you to where you are right now. Do you feel O.K. about the way this craft has developed and how do you imagine which way things will progress? Personally, In the past when things were changing I had a big ass chip on my shoulder about the computer age moving in on my turf. But now I would probably give up my gun before you would be able to touch my computer or I guess I would use my gun if the computer were threatened. Knowledge, is the big tool and I would like to hear what you know.
Thas'it,................CrazeeJack
------------------ Jack Wills Studio Design Works 6255 Brookside Circle Rocklin, CA 95677 writer@quiknet.com
Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :
Well...let me see.....
I started out in this business with ABSOLUTLY no idea of what I was doing. I am fortunate enuf to have started before the computer was recognized as an important tool in the trade. I am also VERY fortunate to have the opportunity to learn from the very start...bascially on my own. I started out using a brush and am still using them MOST of the time....I also use the computer. I had to hand draw all my fonts...which taught me some valuable lessons. Now I set up the sign completly in the computer....then print it out, use my overhead projector to blow it up on the board....then brush. It has saved me COUNTLESS hours in savings to do it this way...I know I wouldn't want to go back to the old way.... I also believe that the trade is starting to suffer image-wise since the computer came along. The people that think they can make signs just by buying a computer and plotter....with NO training in design and pricing are the poeple that are hurting the industry. And...I have to say that some of them go the extra mile and learn good design...I think they develop a love for the craft. I don't know where the craft will be in another 20 years...I am sure there will be some of us out there stroking along....and I'm hopeful that some of the young people will pick up the brush and carry it forward...I hope it will not die out...
I know you can make a CUSTOM sign on a printer...stick it on a board...and there you have it....a sign...most people don't know the difference (or care) as long as the price was cheap.
I know that we are in a society that has to do everything fast...no time for quality...just get it done quickly...then on to the next thing....quickley!!!!!
I LOVE this business...I try to do my very best...sometimes I succeed...sometimes not...but at least I can, at every opportunity, stay true to the craft...
I don't know....sometimes it makes me sad...
------------------ Jackson Smart Jackson's Signs Port Angeles, WA ...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...
"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Hi Jack,
I don't know how it is in the US regarding training, in the signworld, I do remember back about 20 years ago after leaving Agricultral college and working on the land, that I felt there was not much future in what I was doing (finacially for me...great way of life though) I tried to get on a "Signwriting" course that was 3 years, but it was to far away from where I lived, so I went off driving semi's for many years.
I came back to this in 92 and am completely self taught...it probably shows too!
Point is today we live in a very different world, a world that has turned alot of trades, traditions and professions on their heads. Alot of us myself included resist change, we feel comfortable and secure in a world we are familiar with. The emphasis in schools today is IT and everything to do with computers and what a great invention they have been, but as regards career moves you see more people looking for jobs that are centred around these things.
I would love to have had the chance at an apprenticeship or start at the begining at a college but that wasn'ät available, over here lots of traditional occupations, and the training of them has been cut back to make way for "newer" occupations. Perhaps over here its not finacially viable to run these courses, after all we here all too often that the computer does it all anyway!
I think as we all live and learn regardless of how we do it, we should be very aware of passing on all that we know to the newer generations, & keep the basic elements of our trade alive. Computers are here to stay, there will always be badly designed signs, I think we just have to be sure that we strive to show a difference, irrespective of the medium we use.
In the US and UK there are still lots left of the old school, sadly here that is virtually non existent, they don't sell lettering enamels here....you have to import them!
------------------ Henry Barker #1924 akaKaftan SignCraft AB Stockholm, Sweden. A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm www.signcraft.se info@signcraft.se
Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :
Well, like I have said before, I learned the art of signpainting in the 70's. I loved my job, life was good. I had a quaint little sign shop, and there weren't very many other sign shops close by. Then in the late 80's I couldn't wait to get my hands on a computer and plotter and finally got mine in 1990. Since then, I have seen quite a few great signpainters close their shop doors for good. I believe they closed because there was too much competition, they got tired of lowering their prices just to keep in the ballgame. Plus they didn't really care to play anymore. Now it is hard to find a sign shop that DOES handpainting. But we have to learn to go with the flow, as it is said. And that is what I have done. Not because of it being my choice to do vinyl. But because it is necessary. I have kids to feed, bills to pay just like everyone else. And yes, Life still is good! The key here is to find happiness somewhere in the middle. The computer is here to stay. That is why I am trying to go to many meets. To once again be a part of the handlettering creativity. And of course to meet my Letterhead friends!
Good topic. I am also self taught for the most part. I did get a degree in Fine Art in '74, but looked to commercial art for the "money now" aspect, and I liked Signpainting because of the direct connection to paint and brush. Of course, back in those "olden daze", we had to learn letter construction as well as layout, and I think we gained an appreciation of the "craft" of design in signmaking that may be in short supply since the computer releases the new commercial artist from these old fashioned toils. IF we can instill this feeling of appreciation for the craft of design in signmaking, I think that would be a great way to instill a desirable attitude in beginning signmakers. We are all teachers whether we know it or not... The way we work is what we teach... If you want them to learn quality, you have to work with quality as your goal. The young learn from the way we behave.. not the way we talk. LE
------------------ LazyEdna in RL known as Sara Straw from southern Utah 5 National Parks within 3 hours drive Red Rock Heaven
Posted by Jerry Mathel (Member # 526) on :
I started in this trade back in the 50's when almost everyone entering the trade served an apprenticeship. I certainly have no regrets over the time I spent learning this wonderful trade, but times change and few trades still have an active apprentice program. I guess the ones that are the most notable are the electrictians and plumbers.
There is currently a very strong movement in our Oregon State Legislature that may well change a lot of that. The present proposal is that any contrator or sub-contractor working on any public works project must be enrolled in the state apprentice program. The ruling would effect all building trades, and any trade that does not presently have an apprentice program would have to establish one. I believe the sign trade was listed as a sub-division of painters and decorators.
I guess I have a lot of mixed feelings about such legislation. On one hand it certainly opens the door for young people to learn a trade, many who might not otherwise have the chance. Particularly since the state would pay for a portion of the apprentice training, and community colleges would be required to offer trade schools. The down side is that it would exclude the small one man shop from bidding on small jobs such as street or park signs. Needless to say, it's being pushed by the big companies and there seems to be a lot of money behind the lobbying.
------------------ Jerry Mathel Jerry Mathel Signs Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I got to say that I started in the early seventies in this business with the fever of a Mad Man!!! Took the college course of 2 years and then followed a good friend of mine around town from job to job site (just to learn from him)
The days of as you said...drawing two lines and using chalk or charcoal to sketch the letter style in. After following him to 4 different job sites I was hired by Mediacom (Canada) as a helper and was allowed to work on paper poster..10'x20'. I did all the lettering on them as the Master artist did the murals or graphics... After a few years and learning to become a pictorial journeyman.. Now painting the big ones.12x60' or 24x80'..working the brushes with dana oils..After this I was brought into the Airbrushing area to spray backlight signs with gripflexs..Loved it!!! Then I desided that time to take this in my own hands and start a business...What a struggle...But over the years I have learnt that things do change and sometimes not for the betterment of this industry... As a few of you old wall dogs have said there is the advance of the computer.. Great for punch out and perfforating letters... Still had to hand letter them...But with more and more vinyl materials and newer equipment and students coming around,the market is to easy to get into and the prices are dropping like a Hot Rock. Well I figured that the only way to stay ahead of this game is to go back to something the computer can't really quit do yet and that is the love of the Airbrush... OH I know that there is the digital print out there but even still someone has to do the design first..Photo or drawing or graphics.... I guess some day that area will be taken over as well but for now I can still make a very good living and have the past experience to help me along....
Raven/2001
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
[This message has been edited by Stephen Deveau (edited January 16, 2001).]
Posted by Mike Languein (Member # 319) on :
Is a StickerHead a LetterHead ?
?????Hm?????
------------------ "If it isn't fun, why do it?" Signmike@aol.com Mike Languein Doctor of Letters BS, MS, PhD ___________________
You know what BS is, MS is More of the Same, and it's Piled Higher and Deeper here
Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :
Gday Jack, I did my apprenticeship with what was then the largest sign co, in the country. I did my time making some of the biggest neon and illuminated signs around (here at least) which was fun for a while and gave me a great grounding in a bunch of other fields like elec, sheetmetal, welding, commercial spraypainting, fibreglassing... It was damn hard after finishing my apprenticeship though to get work swinging a brush but found it eventually. Since working at the college here in Brisbane tutoring signwriting, they have changed the curriculum at the insistence of the industry association. Previously the students completed 4 blocks of 7 weeks per year and covered just about every facet of the industry except neon, the pre-vocational students did pretty much the same course in 18 months and came out what I would call very competent, in most cases capable of designing, marking out from artwork, brushing/spraying/gilding... and finishing quite complex jobs. The curriulum now consists of making a colour wheel and sticking vinyl to it and a swathe of workplace health and safety training. Its since be adjusted but remains very basic. I think its sad but this was a decision made by the governing powers of the industry in our state and country with consideration to what they thought were core skills. If use of a brush is not a core skill anymore then so be it I spose but I think I'll hang onto mine just in case. Enjoy, David
------------------ D.A. & P.M. Fisher Signwriting Brisbane Australia da_pmf@yahoo.com
Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :
I belive this is a matter of personal chose Being self taught with 25yrs worth.I fond NO apprenticeships available,NO help from the stand offish,(giving away secrets)sign painters.It was ONLY my heartfelt DESIRE to become a sign painter,that had me work 8hr days.Come home at night,and Practice(make mistakes)cold sell,and not be discouraged or Give Up my pursuit of want truly made me Happy in order have some type of self esteem in my life! Or in easyer terms my LOVE for the Arts as concerned with this craft. To this day I am still out to learn as much as possible about signs and techniques for producing them.I am really not concerned with which way the industry is headed,how much reconigtion I get,or what changes I will need to adhere to in order to accomplish my goal in life:To earn an Honest living while enjoying the time on earth I will be here! Don't know if this helps.BUT it sure did feel good to remind myself NOT to let life get in my way of persuing happiness
------------------ PKing is Pat King of King Sign Design in McCalla,Alabama The Professor of SIGNOLOGY
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
In the early seventies, I was working in a shop in Costa Mesa painting signs. We lettered most everything paint would stick to.
Down the road a guy had a shop that employed a cabinetmaker, a wood turner, a carver, a letterer, and a designer. They had a salesman and were combining the skills to change the sign world forever.This was Walter Methner, who started applying dynamic design and great lettering with sandblasted backgrounds with antiqued finishes and shapes and custom moldings and......
This is when I saw the difference between sign painter and sign maker.
------------------ The SignShop Mendocino, California "Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"
Oh, for the faith of a spider! He begins his web without any thread.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Hi Jack,
I don't know if I can answer the question you asked, after reading the mix above. I thought I had a clear cut answer, then it got a little hazy.
Well, here is my take on what has happened.
Professional sign painters have always been good with a brush. Only a certain percentage were good at sign design and a sign painter combination as well. ( most of the sign work that paid the bills was real estate signs and no parking / tow signs, farmer truck lettering. Those who did show card work for the entertainment industry had the better chance at making the pretty signs.
At the BIG sign shop where I learned my craft, even those guys, who were wonderful artists as well, generally didn't come up with the neat looking designs the majority of the time. The artitst at the advertising agencies had the layouts and colors set. And they had money problems as well, and had to do neon signs and pole signs, hang beer and soda signs. If you remember back to a time when many businesses would not pay to have a sign because Budwiser and Coca-Cola gave them a FREE sign with a priviledge panel.
Then the computers came along, and you had to be good at design as well, to make a better looking sign. The artsy sign people had no trouble. Others struggled to make a nice looking sign out of Helvetica and Brush Script.
Today, anyone can make a great looking sign because of all the clip art CDs on the market. That was not true 3 years ago. No longer will the "quicke-sticke franchise shops have to churn out boring signs. They are getting pre-designed point and click layouts. The sign shape is already made, ornamental dingbats are pre-designed, with complicated CD lettering multi-color fonts available.
So, can the old time signpainter be a good sign maker of today. YES! The playing field has been leveled. He has just as much chance to make a go of it as the newbie, but he has to change his way of thinking and take a good long look at where the money is, then get in their and fight for it! The fighting part is where the newbie has a better chance because they are very hungry to get started building thier business, and they have way differnt goals today than the simple sign man of yesteryear who was content with getting the bills paid and raising the kids. The greed factor has to be considered in there as well.
Just my take on things
------------------ Draper The Signmaker Bloomington Illinois USA Stop in and visit a while! 309-828-7110 signman@davesworld.net Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat
Posted by Ryan Ursta (Member # 1738) on :
First off I am what you could say a "newbie" I've been in this craft for about 3 years now. I opened my shop last September after working for a mid sized local company where i was thier "Sign Artist". I am 21 years old.
I've always had a love for graphics and design, ever since i was a little kid I would stare at ads in magazines, check out local business signs, look at paint schemes on racecars and wonder how people designed and produced them.
When highschool came about I enrolled myself in a CAD class and loved it. Not only did it teach you great elements of depth, It also showed you proper measurement and spacing. I believe i got the mechanical aspect of my training from this class. Art was another class that I took that i liked and I believe it helped me in proper color selections and shading (not totally , I still have a bit o' trouble with that once and a while ha ha).
I am for the most part "self taught". I do rely on my computer for everything as far as design work and production goes. Everything is done in vinyl and "norweigan" airbrushed fades (still workin on using the actuall airbrush) I also do some hand drawing, but it is then scanned into the computer to be cut.
Sometimes I wish i was more versatile in the industry. I wish I was able to paint all the designs I create on the computer , but i just don't have the knowlege that most of you have. I think I could learn the painting aspect of the field if I had the opportunity, but that seems "out of reach" at the moment.
I don't think of my shop as a quicke stickie shop even though "stickie" is what I do, I can do some very good designing without using a brush!
As far as you painters go, you all have a great talent. You are very versitale in what you do, and thats hard to compete against!
As far as the industry itself. I think it'll be in good hands with the younger generation. But us "youngsters" never want to see the veterans of the brush leave! Theres too much to be learned from you all!
In closing, you all are a very skilled cordial and professional group (For the most part ha ha j/k), who have helped me out a lot since i've been here. We all have different skills and talents in all areas. I think its great that we can share tips, and suggestions to one another in this creative, challenging, exciting and inspirational field. Happy Signing and Designing! Ryan Ursta
------------------ Ryan Ursta Ursta Graphics 27 West Shenango St. Sharpsville Pa. 16150 Call: 724•962•2206 "letters of Recommendation"
Known as "Ugraph" on mirc
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Ryan Good posting on your part. Remember to go out there and buy the extra equipment to play with. Ask the questions to "someone who knows" and take the chance to express your work. The world is full of ideas..But you have to grab them and create them. Every door you can open is a new room to you!
Raven/2001
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
