The Letterville BullBoard: WHY PRICES GO UP

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Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

DEPENDANCY.........key word here....back in the good old days before the computer(and anybody with one and a plotter was a sign maker)we sign painters had people who depended on us to produce their signs in a timly manner and cost effecient(and we got more money for our work) way so they could grow their businesses. nowadays, it has become a matter of price, if i dont do work that is priced in line with those around here, the people will go somewhere else. as for gas, natural gas, fuel oil and electricity....we as a group have become more dependant on these, so now we pay more for them. but they as group, are more organized and hold or raise their prices together so we cant go somewhere else that will charge less. i have natural gas heat, and iam really upset that its price has doubled just in the last 3 months. wish i could do that with my sign prices. as for auto gas, look at what the most popular vehicles are, SUV's and monster pickups that get 8-10 mpg. the oil people watch the market on what vehicles are selling..and the adjust prices acordingly......remember 73 gas crunch, you couldnt give your big american cars away, and the japanese small car was in demand...and the gas price came back down. not this time.....people just keep buyin the gas hogs...and the gas co. see this.
heres a real short example of this thinking in action....i bought a HP-550 when they 1st came out. ink cartridges for it were $20.00, and you could buy singles....now i got a hp-722 cartridge for it comes in 2 pack and is sold as" A DEAL" for $48.00. and if you can find a single it will cost ya $28.00. now the market is flooded with the printers...the price of the cartridge should go down....but not happen......think about it...how DEPENDANT are you on your electric, water, sewer, natural gas, and fuels????? its that which makes them charge us more......i just bought a wood burning stove......and iam gona fix up the well so i dont need the county water, still have septic tank, got a 6.5kw gen in the step van..and my langnickels dont have a power cord...where would you be with out just electricity????......get a subscribtion to MOTHER EARTH NEWS....and try to become less
DEPENDANT and more self relient.....then maybe some of those prices will come down....

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

I agree with you OP. We need to be more self sufficient. Which is exactly why I have a small (short!) house. I can get up on the roof and clean my own gutters....put moss remover on etc. It is easy to heat as it is small...and yes, we have a wood stove.(and burn wood from trees on our property) I can paint my own house and take care of most all the maintenance myself.
We have become a throw away society. We PAY the garbage collectors to pick up our yard waste....then turn around and PAY for compost! How crazy is that?? Make your own compost!!....it's the best thing in the world for your yard and plants. THEN you have great rich soil in which to grow your own vegetables and fruit. Plant fruit trees....and don't spray with chemicals....have your own little paradise right in your own yard. It is easy....but just takes time.

That man (woman) is richest whose pleasures are the simplest

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"surf" or "MoJo54" on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
(206) 300-0153
Seattle WA.....!
signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
I had a life once. Now I have a computer. http://signsbycheryl.homestead.com/home.html
http://mojosignco.homestead.com/home.html

Posted by LazyEdna (Member # 266) on :

Good Post, OP... but you're wrong about that gas mileage.. I'm sure you can hardly wait for me to point this out to you...

I have an SUV, Toyota 4Runner, and it gets 22 MPG. I have a 4WD pickup, 3/4 Ton, and it gets about 18 MPG. Granted.. this can't compete with a Honda Civic that gets 50 MPG, but you can't haul firewood, lumber, or a horse trailer with a Civic either.
I think the point is BALANCE. I would certainly support tax $$$ for alternative energy production R&D.
Well.. that's my 2¢.
LE

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :

Conservation of our personal use of resources and fuel is always a good idea, but you can become obsessed about saving every nickel and not about earning more. There are more reasons why some services and products rise rapidly in price and it is not always corporate greed. Methinks government regulation and taxation has a lot to with it also. Gasoline has remained a cheap commodity for decades. We are all just as dependent as ever, and yet no major increase.
Go ahead put in a wood stove, plant a garden, use a pencil instead of printer if you like, but you will still save only a little of what it takes to sustain a decent living. Again, not that doing some of these things is bad, but going out and increasing your income is a lot more reasonable in the long run.
I started painting signs in 1978, and I don't remember the good old days of high profits from a captive market. I have earned far more in real dollars in the last ten years using the computer with hand lettering than I ever did back then. I do not find a majority of my customers are walking away, especially on price alone. If price is the only thing that differentiates me from others, than they should walk (I would).
Back to the utilities increasing as much as they have recently, we should well look into the cause and not stick to the pat answers some would give us.

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Wright Signs
Wyandotte, Michigan
Since 1978
http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com

Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :

Maybe somebody can explain why the utility companies feel the need to advertise......radio, TV, billboards.....am I missing something , has Wal Mart started selling electricity?

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George Perkins
Millington,TN.
goatwell@ionictech.com

"I started out with nothing and still have most of it left"

http://goatwell.tripod.com

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

I don't know where things are headed,so why not learn ways to conserve and recycle?
If not one way, then the other. For me, it gives me a feeling of satisfaction, a tie with the earth, a rejuvenation with life.(and a responsibility to my future generations).
I do agree that some of these newer vehicles are much more efficient than years ago and that to me seems to have a lot of impact on the topic.
The answer is not always one answer;I believe it is pretty much relative to each situation, whether it be the lining of pockets of the oil magnates or inflation and waste.
The bottom line is that there is more population, longer life expectancy and less natural resources unless we tap the solar, etc.

I have heard some complain it takes more energy and money to recycle than it is worth.
But, I figure if there were enough interest, recycling and conservation may be more valuable as time goes on.

Well, good luck, on however you stack it up, and yes, be thankful you have some brushes when the computers go down!
...following the Mother Earth magazine since 1977! Deb

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

[This message has been edited by Deb Fowler (edited January 17, 2001).]

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

edna....you got decent gas milage, but the down side is you cant fix either one, need to take it to a computer and hook it up.....dave as for makin more money with vinyl...i dont see it, cost more for equipment, computers, supplies.....yea you make more but spend way more also.....as for obscessing on conserving energy..thats not what iam saying....i make more now then i did when i started...but spend a lot more and am not getting any futher ahead...so any more money i make i spend in price increases for things that i NEED to work, travel, stay warm and cook with and see by.....just wana spend some of the money i make on other things...then those.......its kind circular insanity...make the money, to pay for the new car, i drive to work to make more money to pay for the ...

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by LazyEdna (Member # 266) on :

Joe....
you funny guy.. I couldn't fix the OLD model vehicles EITHER..

I have about 10 years of Mother Earth news from the 70's. They must be VALUABLE by now!

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :

correction: conservation

the circular insanity, yes, I wonder about that a few times a week. I think no matter how good our lives are, we all go through that.
That's why the meets seem more and more appealing all the time. And it's time for me to go camping and fishing under the stars!

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Deb
Creative Signs
"All the gold in the world cannot buy a dying man one more breath. So what does that make today worth?" Og Mandino

Posted by Sarah Clark (Member # 413) on :

Utilities have recently become opened to the freemarket. This means people buy and trade them on the stock market. They can buy them and hold onto them and sell when there is a shortage. They used to come from manufacturer to the company that deliverd them to you and that company made its profits on the delivery process. I just learned this from the owner of a propane company in nearby town who is petioning everyone he knows in the state to try to stop this as he says he doesnt know how he is going to tell old folks back in the woods that their propane cost is more than their Social security check. This buying and hoarding and selling later at high prices has also been going on in the natural gas too.

In the New York Times I learned that back in 1996 in California when they started proposing deregulation, the electric companies decided to stop any further development of new plants as they feared that under deregulation they would make less money. So apparently they were making OK profits before.

The wording of the laws of deregulation were that electric had to supplied to the customer at a reliable and affordable rate. The new deregulation law has no such requirement and has removed all restrictions to keep companies from charging all they can for a product that people are dependent on.

Natural gas is produced in this country, has nothing to do with the Arabs. And in fact the Arabs are going to slow production as their price per barrel is lower or near 25 a barrel now. So you cant blame them that your gas prices havent gone back to what they were before when oil was this price.

Not developing alternative energies is the most damaging and shortsited thing that can be done for the planet and all of our welfare and health.

But hey, everyone wants no regulations so we will just live with it or do without. Thats a free market and free enterprize.

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Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

California is something of a problem unto itself. They produce an amazing 20 percent of the nations goods, with most of it going to export. They produce more food than china, Russia and another country that I cant remember (info from ABC news last mon. nite)

They have to buy their power from other states which I think their own lawmakers/economic planners should be blamed for. 20 percent of our elec. comes from nuclear plants. It is the most effecient and pollution free system in exsistence. Yet we don't know what to do with the waste, and no-one wants to have it in their back yard due to earlier accidents.

Solar & wind projects never did what they thought they would, so all of those options are dead. And did we really want to cover the landscape with 50 foot fans all over the place?

Nuclear will be the only solution for the future (buy your stock now). I'm sure they'll find away to blast the stuff into deep space as soon as we stop launching space shuttles when the temp is under 50 degrees, and the containers can with stand a blast in case it does happen with a nuclear payload.

Gas was a dollar 25 years ago when the minimum wage was 3.75. We're paying 45 cents more even though the minimun wage has doubled. Don't get me started with cars....Did you know that there is only $1700 in labor on a 25,000 car? Do you think there's $5,000 in materials on one? I doubt it.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

" I set aside a few minutes everyday for myself, Then I am able to take off for a week at the end of the year"

Posted by Larry Elliott (Member # 263) on :

I used to burn wood for our heating but one day sat down and done a bit of figuring. I needed a truck (or trailer to pull behind the car) to haul it, a chain saw with gas and oil, and several hours HARD work to cut it, haul it, stack it, move it in, get up in the middle of the night to stoke it, carry out the ash and then do it all over again. The amount of time compared to what I was saving was not worth the effort. For the time I spent trying to heat with wood I could work in the shop one tenth that amount of time and heat with gas. Even after the big cost increase lately I can still make more money by staying in the shop and off the chain saw. If anyone wants to do the wood burning routine that's fine but you're not saving anything unless your spouse and or kids do all the cutting, hauling and burning. The dangers alone in cutting down trees is enough to defer most people. I still have a wood stove in my workshop at home (also a gas heater) and will burn scraps and fallen limbs we cut up from around our small farm but when it comes to really HAVING to heat with wood I hope I never reach that point again. We also do a bit of gardening just for fun and exercise but to try and feed a family by working a garden puts you in the same situation as burning wood. I can work one day in the business and buy more beans, corn, tomatoes and cabbage than I could by spending a month working the soil. I'm a very conservative person, especially with how I spend my time, yes, years ago I would spend an hour to save a nickel,,,, until I saw how much time I was wasting, and that my friends is our most precious commodity. I enjoy what I do so I had rather spend it creatively than hanging onto one end of a chain saw.

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Larry

Elliott Design
McLemoresville, Tn.

If you can't find the time to do it right,
where gonna find the time to do it over?

Posted by LazyEdna (Member # 266) on :

Solar and wind power are very viable alternative energy sources ... the only reason they haven't been utilized is that BIG OIL doesn't WANT them utilized.. if only 10% of the TAXpayer money that has been spent SUBSIDIZING OIL & Nuclear power were spent on the alternatives.. there would be a huge difference...
As for nuclear... there hasn't been new construction of a nuclear power plant since 1979... wonder why? Well DOH... Seems the geniuses who decided nuclear was the answer just weren't concerned with waste disposal... "we'll worry about that later" was their plan... DOH. The so called "spent" fuel rods are actually exponentially more radioactive than the original fuel, and this radioactivity is present for 24,000 years.. oh we're perfectly capable of storage for that...you bet...Utah is under consideration as the final resting place.. NO THANX. As for loading it into rockets and shooting it into space.. now THERE'S a financial BARGAIN.. DOH! Sorry, when it comes to nuclear, I'm amazed at how astonishing lame some folks seem to be about the ramifications.
FACE it... energy costs money. Better to conserve and be thrifty than to destroy the earth (as far as humans are concerned) in a selfish run for "he who dies with the most toys wins" attitude.
But then, I have this really bleeding heart attitude about giving a damn for future generations.
LE

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Interestingly enough, one of the most efficient fuels on the planet was used many many years ago, but ceased when the Hindenberg crashed.. Hydrogen. Guess what? It wasnt the Hydrogen that caused the problem, it was a wood burning stove in the passenger cabin that spouted a hot ember onto the carpet, igniting it.
The only people who died from that incident were the ones who jumped out, everyone that went down with the ship walked away.
Ever since then Hydrogen has gotten a bad rap but it's actually a very safe gas. It always rises up so if it were to ignite, it would flame upward away from people.

The byproduct of a hydrogen fuel cell powered engine is steam.. pure water.. nothing else. Zero emmissions. The only drawback is at the rate the US uses personal transportation, the steam couldnt escape the atmosphere which could make the whole place pretty humid.

Hydrogen does not occur naturally. It is man-made. It's odd that the oil companies would fight against hydo fuel cells when they could get into the hydro business and make the money.

Nope, people are comfortable with antiquated technology even if it kills them. The internal combustion engine was antiquated and by far the least efficient from the get-go. Yet, Henry Ford made it a mainstay when he put it into the only mass produced vehicles in the world.. the only vehicles that everyone could afford.

As far as rising costs.. it's nothing new.. living costs have been going up forever.. when cars were first mass produced gasoline was only a nickel per gallon. My dad bought his first brand new car at a price of $3000. I paid 3 times that amount for a jetski - a TOY.

Costs will continue to go up and you need to be able to move with it. Kids are graduating college with Software Engineering degrees and are getting jobs making over $100,000/year RIGHT OUT OF SCHOOL. Wanna make some money? Become a software engineer. There arent enough in schools in the US so companies like Microsoft are hiring overseas employees. The NUMBER ONE country "producing" software engineers is India.. that's a fact.

So, get with the program and bump up your prices.. everyone has to deal with the same increases across the board.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :

Hey Lettervillians:

Some time ago I had an interesting discussion with one of my compatriats in the advertising profession. He described the whole economy and our North American lifestyles as "feeding the machine". We also discussed that we in the advertising profession, of which sign making is just one component, are a key proponent in creating the greed that pervades our economy and lifestyle contributing to the diminishment of our resources as well as damaging our environment. Something to think about because our personal livelihoods hinge on creating wants or needs in others. I try to be conservative but I'm no 'tree-hugger' and I'm certainly guilty of not so efficient use of vital natural resources at times. I guess it's all about balance.

Happy Signing.....Marty

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Marty Happy
Signmaker Since 1974
Happy Ad Sign & Design
Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4

306.789.9567
e-mail: happyad@sk.sympatico.ca
website: www.happyad.ca

Get Happy & Get Noticed!

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Marty, very true..

Also.. Invention is the mother of neccessity... (no, it's not the other way around.. hehe)

It's kinda like the movie "Field of Dreams".. build it and they will come..

Build a car, people will buy it..
Build a train, people will ride it..
Build a plane, people will fly on it..

Were these things really needed back when they were invented? Most likely not, they had other ways to do things.. but now the world is so dependent upon these CONVENIENCES that they are neccessities.

Nowadays it's computers and internet. We dont really need either, but they're so convenient and offer so many more possibilities that they are becoming a neccessity.

How many times have you tried to find a particular company's website, only to eventually call on the phone and have them say they dont have a website? It happens all the time to me, and when it does I simply wont do business with them because it's not convenient for me to sit on a phone all day to listen to a salesman. So many more people share this same line of thinking that eventually, not having a business website is gonna be a kick to the face when it comes to the bottom line...ie: a neccessity.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Bill Cosharek (Member # 1274) on :

Hey Old Paint!

I just picked up a replacement cartridge For my HP660. Go to Walmart & look for Pelikan remanufactured cartridges. You can get single packs for 25% less. Don't know if they have your number but check anyway. Package says it has 100% guaranteed quality. "The affordable and environmentally responsible alternative." (says that on package)

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Bill Cosharek
Bill Cosharek Signs
1031 Whitehead Lane
N.Huntingdon,Pa 15642
bcosharek@juno.com

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

People who want to talk about prices - up, down, and why - should really try to understand a little basic economics first.

California's current energy crisis is by and large a POLITICAL problem. For years, people have been told how new power plants (whatever kind) were "evil" and opposed the construction of new ones, and yet at the same time people keep assuming that all you need to do is flip a switch and the lights go on as if by magic. Well, it's not magic, it's the first law of thermodynamics, but that's too complicated and not politically correct, so Californians chose to believe in various more palatable kinds of nonsense, everything from Tibetan Buddhism to Shirley McLaine to believing they could live in a geologically unstable desert - somehow - and that their politicians would make sure the lights go on and the lawn sprinklers would have water - somehow - while choosing to evade the hard fact that things like electricity and gasoline actually have to be produced, not just wished into being.

My part of the country is heading for the same big jolt. Thirty years ago the government and their pet dog electric monopolies built nuclear plants all over New England. In the last couple of years, Yankee Rowe in western Mass., Ct. Yankee in Essex, Ct., and Millstone I (ironic name, eh?) have all been shut down permanently, and there's a strong move afoot to close five coal/oil power plants for environmental reasons. I predict within five years we will see the same huge cost increase and rolling blackouts as happened in California, and for the same reasons - a wholesale evasion of the reality of where electricity comes from, and what it takes to generate it.

The solution, like with most issues, comes down to personal responsibility. Solar electric technology exists, and it works - I personally know of several businesses, right here in cloudy New England, that use it for all their energy needs - but sitting around and bellyaching for the Government to "invest" in it or for someone to do it for you is going to get you left sitting in the dark, which is exactly what you'l deserve. My shop has 480 square feet of south-facing roof. By the time the electric bills hit $500 a month(currently I pay about $65), I will have installed solar panels and be independent of the grid, and I'd better be - the money I save will be extorted from me in taxes to subsidize the power supplied to all those evade the trouble of dealing with physical reality, who see science as a superstition and their daily horoscope as a true guide to life, and who expect the Government, as usual, to makes sure the lights come on - SOMEHOW.

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

If you think Big Oil is prohibiting enviromental independent wind and solar engineers from privately generating electricity and selling it at a competitive rate to become wealthier than bill gates, you're sadly mistaken.

The models where built, calcuations were made, it just does'nt work. Otherwise the Government and Big Oil would have wanted in on the game. Besides Government is always last to join the party and too slow to prevent new technology developement.

Anybody want to pony up the extra 30,000 for a natural gas conversion for your car/suv? Nothing like having a compressed flammable gas tank bolted under your ass when you get rear-ended. I lettered 4 city buses last year with this set up. Opps! hey Didn't realize they won't crank under 20 degrees. Oh Well....Back to the drawing board.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

" I set aside a few minutes everyday for myself, Then I am able to take off for a week at the end of the year"

Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :

WE are the problem and WE are the solution. That's what being a free market economy is all about. Everybody has a choice and nobody is forced to do anything...except pay taxes and eventually die. Everything else is an option. If you don't want to be a part of the free market economy...pull a Ted Kazynski. Go off to the woods, live in a shack and grow your own food. It can be done. However, if you WANT to participate in this free market economy, you have a responsibility to make wise choices. For instance...a wise choice here in California would have been to build more power plants 20 years ago. The voters (read....us) voted that down because of all the environmental hoop-la. Now, it's time to pay the piper. Anybody who has ever seen the FRAM OIL FILTER TV ad knows the slogan...."Pay me now, or pay me later". No truer words were ever spoken. You might also say "There is no such thing as a free lunch". In other words, folks, we are them and they are us. When you vote for the politician who tells you what you want to hear, instead of voting for the guy who tells the truth...you pay the price. It's so frigging simple and yet people moan and groan about their situations as if they had nothing at all to do with how they got there. Prices go up because they CAN GO UP. It's just that simple. When you pay $100 to go see a football game...and then complain about why football players make so much...just look in the mirror. Again, it's just that simple. There's no mystery to any of this and again, we are the problem and we are the solution. The oil companies raise prices because THEY CAN RAISE PRICES because you (read that as ...us) will pay whatever they ask. When we stop paying...the prices will go down. Life isn't easy. It's full of tough choices and when we make bad choices...we pay. Just ask yourselves if you COULD...wouldn't you charge $100,000.00 for a 4X8 plywood sign? If someone would pay that price...you would charge that price. The problem is ...no one will pay that much, so you don't charge that much. Now ask yourself, if you're a world class quarterback and somebody will pay you $20,000,000.00 per year...wouldn't you try to get that much? If you can...you are worth it. That's free market, folks. You pay the quarterbacks salary, you pay the movie actors salary and you pay...for everything. You pay...because you will. And, if you decide you won't pay anymore, don't worry...someone else will step up and take your place. And that, my friends, is WHY PRICES GO UP.

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Louis A. Lazarus
Milt's Sign Service, Inc.
20 So. Linden Ave. #5B
650-588-0490
fontking1a@aol.com

Posted by LazyEdna (Member # 266) on :

Nothing is that simple. Football is NOT electricity... many people live very full happy lives without football.. I defy ANYONE to live a full happy life without electricity, transportation, and the other necessities we humans have come to be dependant upon-- yep, OP, you're right.. dependant.
The fact is, we can get along very well without more power plants, by simply conserving and using what we already have in a more thoughtful manner. We did this in the 80's, and electric consumption dropped and the utility companies SCREAMED and "had to raise prices" or risk losing profits for the stockholders.
Big oil IS the problem, and if you don't think so, you are either naive or misinformed. You have only to look at the last election, or you can look at the past 100 years of politics and economics in the USA.
Alternative energy systems do work.. they work well, and they work where big oil hasn't got a foothold.
And Cam... you sure have a low opinion of the intelligence of the human race. Wonder why?
LE

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

You're partly right, L.E. I have a low opinion of the intelligence of people who blame everything on The Evil Rich (Big Oil, etc.)and whose economic opinions consists of a grab-bag of half-assed pseudo-intellectual socialistic garbage they picked up while pot-smoking their way through college, who shut their mind off in 1973 and spend their time trying to show people how bright and worldly and cynical they are while not ever actually making a rational argument (because, after all, reason is just a "superstition" - right?), who tell us how much better off we'd all be if Big Brother would take care of us and protect us from ourselves. Why do you ask, L.E.? Know somebody like that?

My low opinion of the intelligence of the human race stems from having to live with the consequences of a society that values its football players and movie stars as dieties, while holding its creative and productive citizens hostage and treating them like farm animals to be despised and exploited; from seeing success equated with "luck" and any return on an investment excoriated as "greed", from a political culture that gains and keeps its support by fostering plantation-mentality dependency on its most vulnerable citizens, while playing the rest of us off against each other with class-war rhetoric; from a commercial culture that chases money through the gutters of the "lowest-common-denominator" advertising; from a lifetime of watching anything banal, sleazy, vicious, and stupid being equated with everything noble, heroic, and honorable by people who tell you the value of having an "open" mind ("open" used in the same sense as in "open sewer"); from seeing professional glad-handing con men get promoted as corporate CEO's on nothing more than their ability to bribe, wheedle, and asskiss some kind of Government favor out of whatever backwoods shyster gets his-or-herself elected to Congress; oh, sure, LE, I have my reasons, and only time and my own sense of wasting it in the explanation limits me from writing more. Any questions?

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

LE & CAM are both right. Government IS supposed to Look out for the best interest of it's citizens & We the people should make better choices in our leaders and keep watch over them as they work.

But back to power....The image in my mind of that windmill field left a lasting impression of something that didn't work.

The image of those High-tech solar panels following the sun (when there was sun) on electric motors in the desert also left a lasting impression of failure except for the sun races by colleges with cockroach shaped single person cars.

You can't set up hydo-electric power somewhere when theres not a drop of water in sight (las vegas) Let alone a raging river. You can't truck coal 500 miles in to heat a giant steam furnace. Homer Simpson is the only solution, so let the radiation flow. Otherwise get a big pull switch that shuts the power off nationwide from 11 pm to 6 am.

Im glad I don't live in CA so I can see what happens to society when the lights go out.

America is out of interstate extension cords and the demand for power doubles every ten years. One option is for the Gov't to seize/buy the utilities and make it fair for everyone. This is the same Gov't who split mcrosoft and the tech stocks hav'nt been the same since.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

" I set aside a few minutes everyday for myself, Then I am able to take off for a week at the end of the year"

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

cam...ya ever tried TIA CHI?????? such anger.....would do you good.....

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :

Sorry.I nodded off.....is it recess time yet? Will there be a test on this stuff cuz I don't get it. Hey, Francis....psssst...Give ya 5 bucks fur the anwsers!

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Mike Meyer SignPainter
575 1st Street Box 3
Mazeppa, Mn 55956
(507) 843-5951
EMail-mikemeyer@sleepyeyetel.net http://www.markfair.com/mikemeyer check out this great web site..www.grainbelt.com

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :

"Nothing is that simple. Football is NOT electricity... many people live very full happy lives without football.. I defy ANYONE to live a full happy life without electricity, .."

LazyEdna...you are consistent as usual...and as usual way off the mark. Please explain to us where you think electricity comes from. The fact is...many people on this planet live a full, happy life WITHOUT electricity. There are tribes in Africa who have never even heard of such a thing. Are you telling us that you believe none of them are leading full, happy lives? Please tell us why Big Oil is responsible. I am more than interested to how your mind works. Oh, and by the way...football is a commodity that consumers pay for...just like electricity. The owners of the teams charge what the market will bear just as Big Oil does. It IS ALL THE SAME THING AND IT IS THAT SIMPLE. But, all that aside....please, please tell us where you think electricity comes from.

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Louis A. Lazarus
Milt's Sign Service, Inc.
20 So. Linden Ave. #5B
650-588-0490
fontking1a@aol.com

Posted by LazyEdna (Member # 266) on :

I'll type slow so you will be able to grasp this deep concept:
Football is OPTIONAL.
Electicity is REQUIRED.
Yes there are some primitive folks in less developed countries who survive without electricity, however, in the industrialized world, we are DEPENDANT on electricity to SURVIVE. If you don't realize this... I'm afraid there's no way I can break thru that thick of a barrier.
As for where electricity comes from: I believe that is exactly the problem this thread was created to address. If you really don't know where it comes from, Louis, I can recommend some basic reading from my daughter's middle school science class.
And Mark Fair.. it's spelt intellygunt. Heh.
LE

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :

Why prices go up? Supply and demand. Business 101. That's the reason why all utilities should be government regulated.

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Tim Whitcher
Quality Signs & Design
107 E Adrian St
Blissfield, MI 49228
qualitysigns@cass.net

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Tim, A Government takeover might be in the works. 10 miles away from my shop I saw them installing desks and computers in the old Department Of Energy building. (just kidding)

I was figured it out! It's football stadiums using up all the juice! Monday Night Football started this whole mess and we should demand some accountability!

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

" I set aside a few minutes everyday for myself, Then I am able to take off for a week at the end of the year"

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Mike,

Converting a vehicle to natural gas or propane doesnt cost $30,000.

In fact, the cost is very minimal and if you ever make a trip to Arizona, you'd be surprised to see how many propane and natural gas stations there are.

Alternative fueled vehicles are very popular in Arizona, in fact AZ was giving big tax breaks to people who ordered new vehicles equipped with alt fuel equipment.
It actually became a problem there because a project the state had budgeted $4million for became a $400 Million problem because so many people participated! They never anticipated that so many people would be interested in a natural gas or propane powered vehicle.

GM's EV1 (electric vehicles) are also quite popular in AZ, as are Honda's Hybrid Gas/Electric vehicles.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

My word, L.E. Smart people who don't agree with you REALLY set you off, don't they?

Joe: I'm not angry. L.E. asked a question, which she probably would have preferred I not answer, or at least, not so honestly.

Mike: Wrong. Our Government is NOT supposed to "look out for our best interests". It exists, according to the Constitution, to protect our rights; that alone is its legitimate function. It's OUR responsibility to look out for our OWN best interests, and to do so without interfering with the rights of our fellow citizens to look out for THEIR own best interests. One citizen cannot obtain assistance from Government without having Government violate the rights of another citizen, yet our society has created a tremendous structure of justification for the sole purpose of evading the reality of that statement.

L.E. and I agree on the symptoms of what's wrong, where we part company is on its root cause, and therefore, its solution. We have very deep philosophical differences, which show up in how we see things. While I don't agree with many of Sara's views, I defend her right to express them; I would prefer to think she would do the same in regards to mine.

One last note. There are many aspects to this, and any other discussion of its kind, that appear contradictory, and therefore, insoluble. However, contradictions, by the nature of reality, cannot exist. When something appears to be a contradiction, check your premises, One of them is wrong.

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by LazyEdna (Member # 266) on :

Cam...
So far no smart person HAS disagreed with me!

As for you not being allowed to express yourself.. I thing you need to re-read this thread.. no one is preventing you from removing all doubt as to your opinions. The only one ad homineming anyone is YOU! If you think people are really so stupid that they can't see EXACTLY how you try to make others appear inferior to your opinion.. you are sadly mistaken. Everyone sees.
In the future.. I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth... I speak for myself.
LE

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LazyEdna
in RL known as Sara Straw
from southern Utah
5 National Parks within 3 hours drive
Red Rock Heaven

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

Excuse me, L.E. I didn't attack you, I simply stated that we disagreed, and defended your right to state your opinions. At no time did I suggest that my right to express my views was being limited, by you or anyone. As for sounding condescending, no one is better than you, my dear (or doesn't "I'm typing real slow so you'll be able to grasp this deep concept" count?)

And please, enough already with the "ad hominem" thing. Surely you can think of other Latin phrases to make you sound clever.

P.S.: to Mark: I take your efforts in Photoshop as a compliment!

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

To look at this ongoing arguement,
Most of the people are from the states...Us poor outsiders have to pay twice or three time the costs in energies...

But us in Canada have come up with a new vehicle... "The Six Dog Powered Saturn Sled!"
Just feed them about $4.00 of puppy chow each day and off they go...
One thing to remember is to put ski's over the wheels as it's hard on the rubber tires when the emergency brake is on!

But on the home front we still live in styled igloos and are heated by
"Whale Oil Beef Hooked!"
Now say that five times quick!

OK Old Joe you can stop us Mad Men anytime you want.

Damn I'm the Bad Guy again!

Raven/2001

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Raven/2000
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :

Wait a minute now.......

Camstein and Not So Enthusiastic Edna, when you kids savage each other, don't forget...Guns, Religon, and Grain Belt. Those are the Rules here on the Leperhead Website.

(Wait til Vince McMahon hears about you guys...if he does, hold out for the Big Bucks!) Lazy Edna and Chyna Versus Camstein and the Undertaker this weekend's "Royal Rumble' on Leperhead Pay Per View!!!

DING! DING! Alright, there's the Bell.......here they come.........

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

ABC NEWS wed nite.

Peter jennings was ending with a piece was about Lake Betton Minnisota, a poor southwest rural area. This area on the windy plains installed 400 of those big fans over a 30 mile farm tracts. They generate enough electricity for 96,000 homes.

They plan to install 200 more.

This community is getting big bucks for the sale of the power . Thousands go to each farmer for the lease of the land where the fans are installed.

An independent energy co, called Xcel did this without the help or hinderance of big oil or big government. this was a question posed 2 days ago when I argued this method as a failure, while others said Big Oil would prevent it from happening. We were all wrong. Ain't that a kick.

So what do you make of this?

Desolate plains with wind get the fans.
Desert states get the solar panels.
River states get the hydrogenerators.
Everyone else stick two wires in a potato.

So the immediate questions are:

Who buys the power when we're generating more than we use?
Who will market the first commercial tower fan?
Will your neighbors complain when you mount your dish tv on top of it?
Will UFO's finally return having seen our great progress?
and..Is it really neccessary for Las Vegas to use so much neon?

I used to worry about lead in the fishing lakes from nuclear power plants. Now I can't hear my car radio form the radiation static when I use my cell phone.

Fans found a way to make it work. Nuclear will eventually get there safely as well.

Stay tuned.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

I have never let schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

delete

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :

Misbehavin' Mike from Virginia,....as our Governor would say...."It's MinnEsota, get it right!" Xcel Energy used to be "Northern States Power" (NSP) and changed their name just recently. I think it's a great idea and I am a Big Fan of Grain Belt brewed right here in St.Paul Minnesota where Jesse takes his Lunch box to work everyday. WHOAH!

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Ok Mike. I'll trade a honey baked Virginia ham for some of the grain belt. I see Jesse here in the nations Capitol from time to time. Is that a WWF Lunch box?

So many texans have moved into town, We have more suburban sprawl....the 4x4 kind.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

I have never let schooling interfere with my education - Mark Twain

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

Have you ever actually HAD a Grain Belt? No offense to Meyer, he loves the stuff, but I'd try one before I offered to trade a Virginia ham...

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

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