The Letterville BullBoard: Design Rights Dilemma....What should I do???

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Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :

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Jackson Smart
Jackson's Signs
Port Angeles, WA
...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...

"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"

[This message has been edited by Jackson Smart (edited December 24, 2000).]

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Why not just give him a byline next to the photo. Problem solved!

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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :

Hi Jackson. As I see the situation, the designs were made BY HIM while in your employ.That entitles you to display the work as it was done by YOUR SHOP. As a gesture of goodwill, give him a credit notation on the photo as having been designed by him. You are under NO OBLIGATION to do this, but to retain the friendship, and douse any sour feelings, it may be the prudent thing to do.

As a side note; Walt Disney Corp, employs many talented artists working on any number of projects relating to their operations. The thing is that you never see those individual artists being given credit(s) for their work produced while in Disney's employ. Everything is signed with the trademarked "Walt Disney Signature". Perhaps the individuals display photos of projects that they've worked on while so employed, but I'm not sure if this the case or not.

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Ken Henry
Henry & Henry Signs
London, Ontario Canada
(519) 439-1881
e-mail kjmlhenry@home.

Some days you get to be the dog....other days, you get to be the fire hydrant.

Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :

Give credit where credit is do.

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Bruce Evans

Posted by Dennis Veenema (Member # 833) on :

Jackson; I agree with Ken. He did them while working for you. No obligation on your part. However if he is a friend and you wish to maintain that, then add a tag line for the design.
I don't agree with that "anybody can paint a sign attitude". There is a big difference sometimes between making a design and the fabrication of a sign.
Just because someone can design a nice sign does not mean they can produce it as rendered.

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Dennis Veenema
The Sign Shop
Dresden, Ont.
&
GigaBytes Plus
"Where the plus is the service!"

Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :

Jackson,
I think a portfolio is a very personal item.I look at it as a place to strut my stuff.
Why would you want the work of another artist in your collection?
Why not just remove the photos..that will also remove any advertising for the other guy?

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Michael Boone
Sign Painter
5828 Buerman Rd.Sodus,NY 14551
Ontime @localnet.com

Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :

Yes....I can certainly add a tag line and give him credit...however....is it also his right to use a Jackson's Signs produced sign in his portfolio....done while he was working for me?

Also...I helped him recently on an installation of one of his signs....he wouldn't allow me to take MY truck to the job site....he said he doesn't want anyone to see my truck there.....Man...I had all my tools and ladders in the truck. I had to meet him at his house and load everything (myself include) in his van....then go to do the install.....so...what's up with that???
(I still ain't over that one....)

I should have had him sign an agreement when he went to work for me that stated that all work done while at Jackson's Signs remains the property of Jackson's Signs.....or something to that effect...
I don't want to beat him out of his credit...but how far can this go?

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Jackson Smart
Jackson's Signs
Port Angeles, WA
...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...

"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

Jackson, is your truck lettered with your business name? If it is, I can understand why he doesn't want you to drive your vehicle. I had a friend of mine (who has his own sign shop) help me with a big job last summer. He showed up early and handed out his business cards to everyone around! You can imagine how tacky I thought that was. Everyone has their own way of doing business, and some peoples way can be a bit odd. Good Luck with your dilemma.

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"surf" or "MoJo54" on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
(206) 300-0153
Seattle WA.....!
signsbycheryl@hotmail.com
I had a life once. Now I have a computer. http://signsbycheryl.homestead.com/home.html
http://mojosignco.homestead.com/home.html

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Lets say you win a fleet of trucks with the current lettering/logo/design. This customer carries lots of name recognition and helps you win new accounts based on: Oh, You do thier work?

You've just finished lettering it and snapping a photo. Did you do it? - You bet you did. Add it the portfolio. I feel you are even more entitled since he was being PAID by you to design it. Give the artist credit when asked, but keep a copy of the invoice taped to the back of the picture frame if you need to prove it was your project.

Just goes to show: No Good Deed Will Go Unpunished.

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Mike Duncan
Lettercraft Signs
Alexandria VA

"Joan of Ark was not Noah's Wife"

Posted by FranCisco Vargas (Member # 145) on :

I try to stay out of these situations but somehow they always arise. In this case I know the party involded.

Hey Bro Jackson, I know how you feel about the added line. I sub out to other sign shops, when I finish a sign for them I would sign it...their company name/Francisco Vargas. It was a collaboration, they helped me, I helped them. I know for a fact you are a very sharp cat, when I read your post I saw this guy must also be sharp, especially "if you" let him design a sign for your company. Yes I agree with you about how come he doesn't want to mention your name, or you not show up in your company truck. Sounds like a case of competition, his biz failed, yours is succeeding, he needed your help, and maybe at the time you needed his. I have had people help me on a job like Cheryl mentioned. I never called them back to help me again. You might have to chalk this one down as "a not call this one again" no matter how sharp he or she is. Or come up with an agreement that it's a benifit to both of us. Then again, here's the work order, if you work for me it's my job, if you want to be subcontractor and there's a big problem since your name is "going to be on there" then does that mean you will help paid for additional costs?? You will see how fast their name means anything...Cisco

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FranCisco Vargas
aka: Cisco
aka:Traveling Millennium Sign Artist
http://www.franciscovargas.com
Fresno, CA 93703
559 252-0935

"to live life, is to love life, a sign of no life, is a sign of no love"...Cisco 12'98

Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :

Jackson,
The issue is he wants you to incorrectly state that his shop did the signs. Just tell him " Hey Buddy, if I go to hell for lying, it ain't gonna be for you." Explain that you want your relationship to continue, but that even a court of law would rule that the work was done in your shop by your employee and with your materials. If he doesn't agree to your offer to give him personal credit for design you may have to prove that your name isn't Jackson Dumb! Sad situation when friends put us in such an awkward position. Sorry you have to deal with this but the guy will get over it or die mad!

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Kathy Joiner
River Road Graphics
Ponchatoula, La.
Old enough to know better...Too young to resist.

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Jackson,

Did you pay this guy as a sub contractor when he was working for you?

If he was on your payroll, and you were deducting his taxes, paying benefits, yada yada yada, then your shop gets the credit for any work produced.

If you were sub contracting him, then he is still in his own business and still has some claim to his design work.

I know this must really be hurting you inside. But let's look at this from the customer's view point and new work that is generated by your shop:

Word of mouth testimony from one business owner to another is where you get the future work in 90% of all cases.
The picture is way down the list on generating new work.

The original customer got the work done at YOUR shop, he will keep telling his associates what a fine shop YOUR sign shop is, not the other guy's. This isn't based on a picture.

How many times have we all showed our pictures to customers who seem to turn their nose up as if to say "so what?"

If you can get beyond the "emotions" and view this situation from a different angle it wont bite you so hard. Your ability to generate future work is not going to be impacted by this situation, unless you have a heart attack over it...then it will!

Let it go, you'll have a better day today!

( advice so easy to give and so hard to take )

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Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA
Stop in and visit a while!
309-828-7110
signman@davesworld.net
Raptorman or Draper_Dave on mIRC chat

Posted by PKing (Member # 337) on :

Let us not let our egos get in the way here.
Did your shop make any money by producing the sign?Did he get any money while in your employment?Was the customer happy? IF all these are true,then it is OVER!
Seems to me this is a promblem of BRAGGING rights in hopes that someone somewhere will see the work and maybe or maybe not future work will be done.The insecurity coming out of this situation reeks of jealousy.
In cases like this it is ALWAYS better to rise ABOVE such pettiness and produce more,bigger,and better. IF not your are just living in the past.Which does not sound very progressive to me.
Hope this helps

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PKing is
Pat King of
King Sign Design in
McCalla,Alabama
The Professor of
SIGNOLOGY

Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :

On this job, one of you was the artist and the other the businessman. Acknowledgement to each for the function performed. Where does the customer go now for more of those signs? Would you repeat the design if requested, or refer to the guy that designed it? The issue has more depth than what's obvious. Should the customers decision determine who's portfolio it belongs in? I sure see no problem with both boasting this display, as long as it's clear who did what.

I want to take credit for anything that goes out of my shop, regardless of who did it. If I coordinated it, it's mine. Also, what if it were the ulgiest sign in town and everyone wanted to know where it came from. Your shop would gain the reputation, not the employee that painted it. It went outa your door bro!

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The SignShop
Mendocino, California
"Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"

Posted by Kelli (Member # 248) on :

I used to display posters I had printed in my shop as a way to display what my printer was capable of producing. Many of the images were designed by local graphic artists. Since I had produced the posters, but had not designed them, I asked each if I could display a copy of the poster I had produced for them. One did not want his work displayed at all, which I didn't, and the others were pleased to have a design credit placed on theirs.

Your situation is a little different. The guy was working for you. According to intellectual property law, you own the works produced at your workplace, unless agreement was made stating otherwise. It sounds like the sign is impressive enough for you to want to keep a pic of it displayed as testament to what type of work your shop produces, otherwise you would have said the hell with it already. Add the tagline: Produced by Jackson's Signs and below that in smaller letters (designed by Joe Schmoe) If you're feeling really generous, you could say designed by Joe Schmoe's Signs) Ask him to do the same in his portfolio. Maybe you could even get him to pose under the sign with you for another pic with the caption: "A successful collaboration between..." and avoid hard feelings altogether.

Having said that, let me also add that sometimes being right isn't worth it. How much do you value his friendship? If he is unhappy with the situation he'll probably end up telling people you're passing off his work as yours. The aggravation ain't worth it.

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Kelli Cajigas aka Janda
Dolphin deSigns & Banners
“A satisfied customer will tell two friends, a dissatisfied customer will tell ten.”

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

The photographs stay in BOTH portfolios, with the following notations: In yours, "signs designed by "Murgatroyd", produced by Jackson Signs". In his, "Signs produced by Jackson Signs, designed by Murgatroyd".

Then don't worry about it. He failed in business once before when he WASN'T competing directly for your customers. Chances are he will fail again; or there's enough work for both of you. Just remember this when/if he does fail again and comes to you for work. You no longer have any reason to regard this person as a friend who deserves your assistance.

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"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :

Jackson,
Did you say he is a friend?
It must be a pretty outstanding design for both of you to want it in your portfolios.
I see no problem with putting his name under it as the designer along with yours as fabricator.

Like someone said above: "give credit where credit is due"

And stay friends.
You might need his help one day too.

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Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
creators of "woodesigns"
"autograph your work with excellence"
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

Posted by Tim (Member # 1699) on :

Hey jackson, how about postin a pic here for us. Unfortunate situation when it involves a friendship, and I hope you can find a mutual agreement that satisfies.

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Tim Rieck Signs
Halfmoon Bay, BC
tim_rieck@dccnet.com

Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :

I think the word friendshop is being used in close to its loosest meaning.

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The SignShop
Mendocino, California
"Where the Redwoods meet the Surf"

Posted by Daniel R. Perez (Member # 1585) on :

Jackson,
When I worked for a production shop, I wasn't allowed to even sign my atrwork or the finished product as long as I worked there. It didn't matter if I designed it and painted it or if they designed and I painted it. As long as I worked there I had no rights to anything that came out of that shop. And I was verbally told this soon after I displayed my wares in the presence of the company owners and the rest of the employees so that it was understood who owned what and where.
I personally think that whoever does the designing of the artwork to be used deserves some credit somewhere. I also feel that the communication, or the lack thereof, needs to be layed out at the beginning of a relationship that involves another artist type 'cause if it turns out good everybody is gonna want credit and if it doesn't, watch the glory hogs start backpeddling.
And in conclusion I would like to offer the old addage that..."if you want something done right, you better do it yourself."

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There is nothing new under the sun. What will be has already been and what has been will be again.
Daniel R. Perez
Daniez Dzines
Fresno, CA
daniez2001@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by Daniez (edited December 19, 2000).]

Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :

Yep....I have to agree, after stepping back and looking at from other peoples view, that it is an EGO thing...on both parts.

So...I will give him credit for the design (I have ALWAYS givin him credit....just not in writing...now I will change that.)
It seems to me that some insecurity on his part also plays a very big part in this...I will try to help him thru that. I also see some insecurity on my part.

Yes...they are very nice signs...both in design and fabrication....something we are both proud of.

I, as the selling shop, also have to take full advantage of any future work....since the customer originally came to me for thier sign....after all...isn't that the whole idea?

So...thanks to ALL of you for your input...it is well taken...I assure you. Sometimes we are to close to a situation to really see the whole picture...that is one of the great things about this BB....you can always air your dirty laundry....and either get a pat on the back or a slap upside the head.... seems I need a little of both.

Ahhhh....what would we do without drama...eh?

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Jackson Smart
Jackson's Signs
Port Angeles, WA
...."The Straits of Juan De Fuca in my front yard and Olympic National Park in my backyard...

"Living on Earth is expensive...but it does include a free trip around the Sun"

Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :

Go with Cam's advice.

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Wright Signs
Wyandotte, Michigan
Since 1978
http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com

Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on :

Man, I didn't realize how lucky I am.

I have a friend who also has a one-man shop in town. We help each other on quite a few projects(a lot of times we each bid the job...one wins/the other is the helper). We both drive our own vehicles most of the time, and both have our names on them. We both display the nice ones in our portfolios(If a customer mentions seeing one in the others pics, we explain). If someone comes up to talk about a sign while we are on a job together, they are refered to whichever one of us had the bid on that job.

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Don Hulsey
Strokes by DON signs
Utica, KY
270-275-9552
sbdsigns@aol.com

I've always been crazy... but it's kept me from going insane.

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

this is pretty cut and dry to me.
all of these post have some good points.

i tend to agree with my buddy in sodus bay, ny
take the photos out of your portfolio and never mention his name again.

if the client comes back to order more signs with said design, then you should by all means use "your" design.(after all he has already been paid for the design with an hourly wage.)

i have known in my time characters who would physically try to cover up the current sign they were working on, when i walked into their shop, in fear of me stealing their customer.(that's not the way i do business)

maybe this one should not be a portfolio piece.

merry christmas,

mark

postscript:
"I am not an Attorney, but i do play one on HeadTV!"

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Mark Fair

Mark Fair Signs
http://www.markfair.com

Home of "Sign of the Month
http://www.markfair.com/signomonth.html

2162 Mt. Meigs Road
Montgomery, Alabama 36107
334-262-4449

mark@markfair.com

"Mark Fair is a Proud Contributor to The Letterhead Site!"

[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited December 19, 2000).]

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

You own the rights to the artwork so it is YOUR choice if he gets to show it in his portfolio or not.

Who reproduces the design when the customer requests it? Jackson's Signs should, that's who.

Legally, he has no right to display it in his portfolio. The design was first published by Jackson's Signs therefore Jackson's Signs retains all rights to the artwork regardless of who actually designed it, unless special arrangements were made that state otherwise.

If you choose to LET *HIM* display the pic in his portfolio, be sure it's clear who designed it and who produced it, and the fact that he cannot reproduce it legally.

The comparison to the Disney artists is a good one. The artists that ink the animation cells or produce the computer art dont retain any rights to their work, Disney does.
PIXAR studios produced the Toy Story movies in their entirety for Disney, Disney owns the rights but PIXAR did get a sideline mention, Disney was nice and let them have it. =)

Ultimately it's up to you Jackson. You can let him use the photo or you can deny him.

Legally, he cannot use it unless you say it's OK.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :

just some random thoughts while wondering what ever happened to eric nesterenko...

legal... schmegal... lose the picture. don't give him any credit. with friends like him, who needs enemies?

we don't display any work done with or for other sign companies. we try to avoid future confrontations like this one.

we don't have our subs sign a waiver, but i think we will be changing our policy on that...

this is the type of situation that can arise that made us severely curtail the "wholesale" type of work for other shops. seems like they really don't appreciate the effort and will, generally, not give any credit to anyone but themselves.

in any rate, this situation is very sad. too bad it came to words and all.

i hope we can all learn a lesson from all of this...

have a great one!

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Bruce Bowers
DrCAS
Signtech

"how great are His signs..."
Daniel 4:3

i am a proud supporter of this website!

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