The Letterville BullBoard: vehicle lettering- high performance, or intermediate?

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Posted by Christian Slager (Member # 1074) on :

it seems that these days, all my competition caries ONLY intermediate vinyl. We've used h.p. on vehicles for forever and a day... but dang, the extra profit that could be had... what do yall do? h.p. or cal?
later

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Christian S.
Budget Signs & Graphics
Bradenton, Florida
BudgetSigns.Graphics@verizon.net

Posted by cheryl nordby (Member # 1100) on :

Hi there. Let me give you an example of what happened to me a long time ago. When I first got my plotter, I decided to use the intermediate vinyl on a friends van. He said he was going to sell it in 6 months. (he didn't.) He had a painting company....and washed his van alot. Well.......something made his red vinyl turn brown. I have never used intermediate vinyl on customers vehicles since. (I use it for myself when I am doing something temporary on my truck. I like to change 'looks' on my truck quite often) I dunno....maybe they are making the cheap vinyl better these days? I use it on corex temporary signs.

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"surf" or "MoJo54" on mirc
Cheryl J Nordby
Signs by Cheryl
(206) 300-0153
Seattle WA.....!
Whatever you are...be a good one! Abraham Lincoln
http://signsbycheryl.homestead.com/home.html
http://mojosignco.homestead.com/home.html

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

i use a lot of intermediate...of course i got a lot of cheap a** customers...hehehehe.
i started out using AMERIBAN bannercal...its ok for short term signs(6 mos) no more, there red is reallllllly bad for fade....i have since moved to sparcal promo plus...and ive had reds out in the direct fla sun for 3-4 yrs minimal fade....so i stick with sparcal...yes and the extra profit is nice and also i did a tree service truck 2 mos ago, wanted it with maroon vinyl, i got a 10yd roll cost me near $20 and i did the truck, charged him $300....and he still hasnt PAID ME! so i didnt lose much on the materials...

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

Vinylman777,When I had a Body/paint shop years ago we lost a lot of jobs to "the shops down the street" cause they didn't buy the best quality paint and related materials.
This problem only lasted about 8 mo.,then we started working off our reputation for doing the best possible job for the money ! We became very buisy and stayed that way,but never got down on the same level with our competition !! Roger

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Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Waikoloa, Hawaii

Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :

I use strictly HP. My reputation is too important for me to take the risk of using intermediate. I am not afraid to push the fact that I only use the highest quality materials. I've seen too many intermediates fade, crack, and peel on vehicles and glass that I just won't bother with it.

Also, what is it costing you to stock both intermediate AND high performance? Unless you are cranking out a ton of vinyl work to justify stocking both types, in my opinion you are losing money on extra inventory. Remember, a roll of vinyl that sits on your shelf for one month just cost you at least 5% more than when you bought it. If that roll sits there for 6 to 8 months, you've just wiped out the savings on a roll of intermediate.

Just my (and my accountants) 2 cents worth. In my humble opinion, I'd rather be known for using the best stuff rather than passing off intermediate as the standard.

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Dave Sherby
"Sandman"
SherWood Sign & Graphic Design
Crystal Falls, MI 49920
906-875-6201
ICQ: 21604027
sherwood@up.net

Posted by Mike Pipes [in a cubicle] (Member # 1841) on :

Explain to your potential customers the difference between the HP and intermediate materials, explain the price difference then let them make the choice to what they want.

If a customer of mine wants intermediate material to save money, I will NOT offer any kind of guarantee on the vinyl, installation, fade, cracking peeling whatsoever.

I tell customers straight out, it wont conform to rivets because it will just shrink back and form a dome over the rivet again.
It will also shrink within 6 months or less, leaving a goo-trail all around the edges.

If it's painted, the paint will shrink and will pull the edges of the vinyl off the surface because intermediate doesnt have the same adhesion strength.

I'll use intermediate material however I do not stock it.

I just warn the customer in advance that if they want that material, it's not going to last and look as good as the higher performance stuff.

Then use that against your competitors. If a customer bawks at your price and says "Joe Blow quoted me half that price" you can say "Joe Blow's materials will only look good for a year, mine are good for seven."

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Mike Pipes
-----trapped in a box with a computer and a slice of cheese-----

Posted by Brian Stoddard (Member # 39) on :

Make your self a sample with cast and calendared vinyl with tight registration on a piece of aluminum or painted steel. leave it outside for a while in the sun and then carry it around to show your customers the difference in fading and shrinking (big time shrinkage on the calendared) have them comare apples to apples....

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Brian Stoddard
Expressions Signs
A few puddles east of Seattle

Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :

Brian,

You said it! That's a fantastic idea. There's nothing like a customer seeing it for themselves.

I made the intermediate mistake once early on and will never use it again. Stick with HP!

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Mark Smith
Ampersand Signs & Design
EstiMate Sign Estimating Software
www.ampweb.com/estimate
1-888-304-3300
Hailing from beautiful Asheville, N.C.

Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :

The only thing I have found that intermediate is good for is making cut-out patterns for wood or HDU signs. I keep one roll of white just for this purpose. It's quicker and more accurate, for me, to just cut it out in cheap vinyl and stick it on the blank than to make a punce pattern etc.

Beyond that, it peels, cracks, won't comform to irregular surfaces,and shrinks terribly down here in Florida where the summers get up into the hundreds.

My competitors use it though. One of them was visiting my shop a couple of months ago.
In admonishing me to use the cheap stuff, he said "that's crazy to use premium, you don't want the sign to last 8 or 10 years. You want them to come back. You want the customer to have to come back for another one."

The only problem I see with that philosophy is that they'll come back alright. To someone who uses good materials.

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Wayne Webb
Webb Sign Studio
creators of "woodesigns"
"autograph your work with excellence"
webbsignstudio@digitalexp.com

Posted by Greg Gulliford (Member # 170) on :

The only time I use Intermeadiate Vinyl on a vehicle is for a promotional vehicle (radio or t.v). I do a fair amount of these yearly but my customers are aware of it as they want it to be as catchy as possible but cost is also a factor. These rigs are seldomly on the vehicle for more than a couple of months and half of that time they are sitting in a mall or grocery store.

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Greg Gulliford
aka MetroDude
Metro Signs and Banners
1403 N. Greene St. #1
Spokane, WA 99202
509-536-9452

mail@metrosignsandbanners.com

Posted by Christian Slager (Member # 1074) on :

but what about this new avery 5 year that is okay for vehicles?
what do you think about that?

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Christian S.
Budget Signs & Graphics
Bradenton, Florida
BudgetSigns.Graphics@verizon.net

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Vinylman,

I just used the new Avery product on a truck with rivets. This 5 year stuff is very pliable and went over well. Don't forget to run a heat source over the rivets to take the "memory" out of the vinyl.

I determine which vinyl to use by the customers buying habits. What does their shop look like? Do they buy used/repainted vans for their fleet? Do they care about their appearance.

If they are first rate and keep the trucks a long time - use 7 yr. If they just bought a 100,000 mile junker, and repainted it, use 3 yr.

I used 5 yr avery on this mentioned trucks because they painted these things with a roller and some outdoor enamel. That should tell you alot about these customers and what they think about quality.

New vans on a 3 yr lease - 5 yr vinyl
New van to keep 5-6 yrs - 8 yr. vinyl
Used vans...usually have small dings and rust and the decision should be easy

mike

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[This message has been edited by Mikes Mischeif (edited December 11, 2000).]

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

opps

[This message has been edited by Mikes Mischeif (edited December 11, 2000).]

Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :

The real problem with calendared vinyl is the fact that it does have a memory. Calendared vinyl is manufactured by rolling out the vinyl material to a desired thickness, a less costly process that cast, which is poured in a liquid form onto the liner (don't ask me how they do it!). Calendared vinyl will always try to return to it's original shape when exposed to UV and extreme temperature changes. Nothing you do can make it lose memory. It will FAIL sooner than HP. I've seen so called 5 year calendared fail in three years under harsh conditions (we use it for construction site signage). I have signs that have been up for eight + years using HP vinyl without a single failure. If you plan on being in business more than 3 to 5 years, stick with HP.

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Tim Whitcher
Quality Signs & Design
107 E Adrian St
Blissfield, MI 49228
qualitysigns@cass.net

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

i have learned from "doing"
use the materials that do the job, don't cut corners.
HP(seven year) vinyl on vehicles.
i like to do the job once, so to speak.

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Mark Fair

Mark Fair Signs
http://www.markfair.com

Home of "Sign of the Month
http://www.markfair.com/signomonth.html

2162 Mt. Meigs Road
Montgomery, Alabama 36107
334-262-4449

mark@markfair.com

"Mark Fair is a Proud Contributor to The Letterhead Site!"

Posted by Daniel R. Perez (Member # 1585) on :

Hey mike,
What do you mean when you say ..."take the memory out of the vinyl?"

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There is nothing new under the sun. What will be has already been and has been will be again.
Daniel R. Perez
Daniez Dzines
Fresno, CA
daniez2001@yahoo.com

Posted by Daniel R. Perez (Member # 1585) on :

Hey mike,
What do you mean when you say ..."take the memory out of the vinyl?"

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There is nothing new under the sun. What will be has already been and has been will be again.
Daniel R. Perez
Daniez Dzines
Fresno, CA
daniez2001@yahoo.com

Posted by Daniel R. Perez (Member # 1585) on :

Hey mike,
What do you mean when you say ..."take the memory out of the vinyl?"

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There is nothing new under the sun. What will be has already been and has been will be again.
Daniel R. Perez
Daniez Dzines
Fresno, CA
daniez2001@yahoo.com

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Tim, Have you tried this new avery stuff? They've done something to it that makes it fell and "act" like high-performance.

I went over rivets with this stuff like crazy. I was so amazed I did my in house stress test. Here's how I unscientifically test vinyl.

I take 1" stripes of vinyl and tape 3/4 of the edge to a metal ruler and secure it to the edge of the table. I take a 24" x 24" alumanum panel and clamp it down to the outer jaw of the vice at the opposite end of the 48" work table. Tape the other end of the vinyl to the panel so there is equal tension for each strip of vinyl.

Now start turning the jaw to the close postion and watch the 1" x 13" vinyl strips stretch to it's breaking point.

First to break: Gerbers 4000 series calendared. - 17 inches

Second to break: Calon intermediate - 19"

Third to break: Oracal High performance 20"

Forth: Avery 5 year calendared - 24"

Last 3M High-performance - 26"

You can roll the avery 5 yr. in a ball and It wont "unwrap" - amazing.

daniez, The memory in the vinyl is what causes it to want to return to a "flat" plastic. Use a heat source to change the chemical properties as desribed in a previous post. (rolled to calendared - liquified to cast)

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Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :

Hi there!

Like Tim say's....calendered will always be calendered cast is cast....Sorry Mike I don't or wouldn't trust Calendered over undulating surfaces like "blind" windows on vans rivets etc. As Tim says the manufacturing differences are such that calendered always shrinks somewhat. We use it on large aluminium sign boards and flat surfaces, we use Avery's old 8800 series which changed to 600series which is reborn now as Avery 700 in Europe its a thinnner 5+ year calendered,on the above surfaces without problem. We use Avery cast on all vehicles, with changes in our climate being as extreme as they are this performs best...the only failures I have seen are from pressure washer damage in the winter, and that is the customers problem, however I normally replace any damage free of charge, for what little the vinyl costs I would rather have a happy customer who felt we went that bit further to keep them than tell them to go and suck....like a competitor here did recently! I have found that some of the thinner brands of calendered 5-7 year red go brown when they are laid over a black shadow for example, we did some campaign signs for a large chainstore a couple of years back for a big sign co and they specified the vinyl, they cut their shadows to lie next to the letter we cut it as one piece both on the side and under, we find this works better on vehicles...less small pieces to risk damaging, but as I say it made the red go brown....I have never had this with Avery films

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Henry Barker #1924
akaKaftan
SignCraft AB
Stockholm, Sweden.
A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm
www.signcraft.se
info@signcraft.se

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Hi Heads,

I have to disagree with the majority of you here. We make the vinyl fit the job. The customer is never told about how long the job will last unless they want MYLAR (1 year)

We have used Spar-Cal Promo on vehicles and they have held up extremely well. 5 years + in Illinois weather. Now Spar Cal has sold out and we are using FDC. So we will see.

If a customer has a metalic paint job on their vehicle, we try to use a metalic vinyl.

If the customer is leasing his vehicle ( service truck) they are generally on a 4 year lease. There is no point using HP.

If the graphics are EDGE printed, then we use calendared because the EDGE print is only good for 4 years. Why use an 8 year vinyl on a digital graphic that will dissaper in 4?

If its a show vehicle, we use the best.
If its a service vehicle we use the next best
If its temporary we use the worse vinyl.
Maganetic signs wont "stick" around more than 2 years so why use HP? That's the thinking process here.

What is really imortant to me is to sitck with one company, like AVERY, and only stray when you need a special vinyl. If that vinyl line is showing signs of not holding up, you find a new company. I have never had to stray with any product made by AVERY in the last 15 years. AVERY makes vinyl for a lot of companies who sell it in one name or another.

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Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA
Stop in and visit a while!
309-828-7110

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Looking at it from a "costs" point of view, I would still go with "cast" vinyl.

Calendared vinyl cost about 40cents a sq.ft.
Cast vinyl cost about $1.40 per sq. ft.

Lets say you are lettering the sides of a utility van. The lettering area is usually about 108"x24". That translates into....

Calendared ..... $7.20 per side
Cast ........... $25.20 per side

This means that for an extra $36, or whatever difference you want to put on it, the client can have a job that will last twice as long.

I can take that $36 difference and double it to $72. Customers will still gladly pay the extra for something that will last twice as long.

Thats how I look at it anyway.

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Warning: A well designed sign may cause fatigue due to increased business.
http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

Posted by Mike Pipes [in a cubicle] (Member # 1841) on :

I look at it kinda like Glenn.

The actual cost difference in materials isnt that much, even though cal is half the cost of HP.. I dont neccessarily cut my price in half just because the customer wants calendared film.

The difference on a set of truck doors isnt even $10 for materials.. depending what the customer's intent is, they may as well go with HP material.

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Mike Pipes
-----trapped in a box with a computer and a slice of cheese-----

Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :

Lets look at it another way.... It's no surprise hp vinyl is sold in 10yd lenths.

side panels are 24 x 108 (10 ft.) x 2
You should get a phone # or two and the back doors done with the remaining 10 feet....ANYWAY...

If you spend $50 bucks for that 15 x 30' roll of hp and its all used for 1 van.

If you use calendared: 50 bucks for the 150' roll will letter 5 vans.

If the average cost of a 1 color van is say $350. 5 x 350 = $1750 Less materials = $1700

With HP materials 5 x $50 (per roll) = $250

$1750 - 250 = $1500

The difference is actually $200 Divide this by the 5 vans and double the material cost (36 - 72) and you have to bid these vans $100 more per unit than the Cal. users

But I need to put that $200 bucks in my pocket for the day if I can.

This goes out the window if you need that extra yard. Dont ya hate to spend the extra $50 bucks when you need a Just a little more.....

Each lettering job has its own merits. I letter alot of temporary vans and shuttles that only need 3 months lettering. I do use HP for quality long lasting jobs though.

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Posted by Rick Cooper (Member # 375) on :

You probably have to consider your volume. With our small shop we aren't using anything but red, green, blue and black before the worrying about the shelf life expiring so we stock only HP. I can see that if you're doing 5 vans a day it might be cost effective to stock both kinds if you can justify all the extra administrative hassle.

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Rick Cooper
Sierra Sign & Award
Lake Tahoe, USA
www.engrave.pctrader.com
$$$Letterheads Website Supporter$$$

"The early bird gets the worm but the second
mouse gets the cheese."

Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :

Do any of you painters use intermediate paint?

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Brad Ferguson
427 S. Sycamore
Ottawa, KS 66067
785-242-9924
signbrad@apip.net

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Mike,

See, I'm in a different market. Calendared vinyls are kinda iffy in my local market, with 300 days of sunshine a year and six months of the year the temp is over 100 degrees. Arizona is fantastic. =)

I dont want to take the chance of something failing early so I use the HP material.

You do have a point about the van lettering, I guess if the customer's intent is temporary, then calendared is fine.

I sell ready-to-apply stuff online as well, and the response I get from almost every one of my customers is the same. "Your materials are better quality than anyone else selling graphics online, I'm buying everything from you from now on."

It might just be my "target audience" as well. I tend to cater more towards boaters and guys that put their cars and trucks in shows. They seem to appreciate better quality stuff and they can feel the quality when they handle the stuff. Better quality + better handling characteristics = easier application.

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Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :

well i have both vinyls in stock...and usin them accoring to the cutomer request is what i do....why put hp on a banner, or corplaste, or magnetics...total waste of money..all intermediate i have is 20"x150 rolls in red, white, blue, black, yellow and green.....new boats, new trucks, yea....hp is the ticket, iam sure we all have the "service" related business customer, roofers, construction, tree service,tow trucks,lawn service..ect ect...most of these people buy used(if not abused) equipment....they only keep for a couple of yrs(or untill the employees destroy em) why would you even think of usin hp.....as for calendared..in this town..ORACAL glossy intermediate is king....(i dont like it) my SPARCAL supplier keeps tryin to get me use it..its to plastic for me...

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joe pribish-A SIGN MINT
2811 longleaf Dr.
pensacola, fl 32526
850-944-5060
BEWARE THE TRUTH.....YOU MAY NOT LIKE WHAT YOU FIND

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