After reading a recent post on backing HDU, it seems as if you have to do many more steps just to USE this product, I dont quite get why you would want to?
I have used HDU on mostly smaller carvings, so the only frustration so far was filling, smoothing, & repairing if damaged. ( which I might add was reason enough to CAN the substrate )
On a larger menu board we built for a restaurant we ran into same problems, smoothing, filling voids and then the filled void looks smoother than the sign, filler sanded slower than the substrate, and repairing if damaged in handling. The only reason we used HDU was for light weight in hanging. It was to be hung over a work counter.
On this menu we backed this sign up with a 1"x1" aluminum frame, like we do for aluminum signs. This was for stability and hanging, since the sign was in 3 pieces, ( it was 3'x18')
But what I ws reading in the other post puzzled me. I read a reply about a 4'x6' sign split in two, a 4'x6' sign SPLIT IN TWO ?
Hell that is not a real big sign. and it split in half? So now it seems I need to put another substrate behind this product to strengthen it?
WHY?
So lets recap this scenerio, I not only have to buy an expensive piece of HDU, but I have to buy a filler, special glue, special primer, and another expensive piece of alumalite or Dibond just to add strength to my sign. Not to mention epoxy so I can attach any hardware to my sign.
Yes I will admit it is easier to carve in, it is easier to sand and glue up but it doesn't make and sense to me to use any product that requires so much more additional materials & work.
I can order a 4'x6' piece of Mahogany for less than all those products combined, It comes glued up and planed,I can lag directly into it with a firm hold, I can fill it very easily with wood putty or bondo, sands smooth consistantly, I can use any oil based primer, and it is strong by nature.
Yes I know it will eventually rot but only if neglected, or improperly maintained.
like that popular Pepsi commercial with Alfred Einstein.
" A Noh Brainer "
please enlighten me!
don't beat me up!
just enlighten me.
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Bob Rochon
Creative Signworks
Millbury, MA
bob@creativesignworks.com
"Some people's kids"
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St.Marie Graphics
& Makin' Tracks Sound Studio
Kalispell, Montana
stmariegraphics@centurytel.net http://www.stmariegraphics.com
800 735-8026
We're chiseling every day of the week! :^)
[This message has been edited by pierre (edited October 22, 2000).]
You make some good points.
I don't blame anyone for preferring wood. There are yet "learning pains" associated with it HDU, as must be the case with any new product, or rather, a new application for a product that's been around awhile.
But was this not also the case with sandblasted wood signs in their infancy? And in spite of all the years wood signs have been produced, there is still debate over finishes, glues, etc.
And I continue to see wood sign failures.
In my work, one of my primary goals is to make signs last as long as possible.
This is why I dislike MDO board. It's why I prefer aluminum and plastic, and it's why I use automotive paints instead of sign paint in every application that's practical.
quote:
Yes I know it will eventually rot but only if neglected, or improperly maintained.
In addition, marbleizing on HDU with car paint lasts a long time and looks very authentic. For ease of machining, there is no comparison, nor any rival that even comes close. For patching, it's just a matter of finding workable techniques and materials, just as my first attempt at bondo repair on a car ended up looking like chewing gum under the paint.
The main drawback of HDU is not it's cost to produce, because, in my opinion, that is outweighed by a life of no, or little, maintenance. It's main drawback is impact resistance. But it's good to remember that that is also the main drawback of Plexiglas. There is no perfect material.
I think wood signs will continue to be made for a long time. They will continue to be requested by clients. But as availability becomes more of an issue with time, wood signs will become more and more the expensive option even without it's necessary maintenance.
Eventually, of course, we will see the same problem with HDU as the world's petroleum stock heads toward depletion.
At some point, we will be using up all available sign materials faster than they can ever be replaced, and signs as we know it will cease to exist.
By then technology will have perfected the use of holographic imaging for advertising. We will have computers in our vehicles that will allow us to see roadside billboards, and those that don't want to see them will simply not accept the 'cookies.'
Of course, the logistics of the effort required to produce and maintain such technology will require the efforts of millions, far outstripping any maintenance issues in connection with physical substrates.
But that will be welcome news to all the out-of-work paintheads and vinylheads!
Bob, Don't apologize for opening a 'can of worms.' If it's been canned, whether beans or worms, it's MEANT to be opened.
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Brad Ferguson
427 S. Sycamore
Ottawa, KS 66067
785-242-9924
signbrad@apip.net
I share many of your observations on HDU. I have only recently started working with HDU and used it for smaller carvings attached to MDO. I like the fact that it is impervious to moisture and easy to work with. I worry about HDU being able to withstand the hail storms we get here on the prairies. HDU I've found is not easy to finish to match surrounding substrates like glossy finish MDO. I have a problem with quick, easy and inexpensive accessibility to HDU and it's related finishing products. I also feel that they are overpriced. No local suppliers are interested in carrying substrates like HDU, dibond and alumacore either.
I like using MDF for interior dimensional signs and if I could find a sure way of sealing MDF for exterior use that would be my substrate of choice for layered dimensional signs. The machineability is really not that much more difficult and structurally it's so much stronger. Plus, I'd much rather deal with wood dust than HDU dust which seems to cling to everything.
I've often wonder about some of the products the recyling industry (which is still in it's infancy) has been making like those recycled rubber and plastic posts and curbs. I wonder if flat substrates with substantially more structural integrity than HDU could be created with those products.
Happy Signing.....Marty
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Marty Happy
"Signmaker Since 1974"
Happy Ad Sign & Design
Regina SK, Canada S4N 5K4
306.789.9567 "Get
e-mail: happyad@sk.sympatico.ca
website: www.happyad.sk.ca
I love working with Sign.FoamII because I can sclupt it faster, carve it faster to look like rock or woood. I use to lay down $300 bucks for a 4x8 sheet by inch and a half thick. But I have found, its not necessary to buy a thick piece. 1/2 thick will do just as good if not carved to deeply.
For backing, I get some 2 x 12's by 1.5 inch thick treated lumber, glue them edge to edge and clamp them....no big cost of money or time.
I can't even get decent redwood. One of the other sign shops here in Bloomington Il, has to order $10,000 worth of redwood at one time from California to get the good stuff.
I start another sign next week...can't wait!
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Go Get 'Em..... :)
AKA Raptorman on #Letterheads mIRC Chat
Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA
Proud 2-yr. $upporter of this Web Site (May 1999-May 2001)
Over here in Sweden, even though we are surrounded by forestry 60% I believe, getting the right types of wood and the extra labor involved in producing signs that will then not last the test of time in the Scandinavian climate, gives good reason to use HDU, I have been using HDU from different manufacturers for several years now, my biggest problem is availablility. I guess you are spoilt for choice on thw whole in the US, I noticed was it Marty saying it was hard to get some suppliers to stock, dibond hdu etc. Try it over here! I have no problem with getting smaller sheet sizes in 2" thickness up to 6" thick but 4ft x 8ft are only available from the UK and due to both a strong pound and dollar its too expensive. I have contacted both Sign-Foam and Chuck Miller at Precision Board, to see about making it more available in central europe but its an uphill struggle.
I have even contacted other sign companies with a view to buying a larger shipment between us, but over here people are still unsure about it, and those that rout, think its an expensive substrate to learn with, whereas customers love the signs we make.
I guess to the likes of Sign-Foam and PB I am chicken feed and not worth bothering with....Joe if your reading I was invited by you to mail you about finding a solution to the availability problem, I did that and have not heard back from you?
AS others have said its a great product to work with, we use both Sign Enamels and auto paint for our finishes, I made my post about backing Bob because timber alternatives are the weak link, but gluing up and cutting a piece of HDU with dibond is easier for us than what we have been doing before on larger signs.
I am just hoping that it is made more available over here thru whoever, as I have 1.5 sheets of Sign+Foam left in 2", and they were the last 2 available from our now defunct supplier, or alternatively that the pound goes back to its regular exchange level 35-40% lower than today....and those of you in the US can be happy that you don't have water and unstable currencies in between you, and the products you want to use!
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Henry Barker #1924
akaKaftan
SignCraft AB
Stockholm, Sweden.
A little bit of England in a corner of Stockholm
www.signcraft.se
info@signcraft.se
As I read this question and the responses that followed, there appears to be several topics and sub-topics to address. "Why use Sign•Foam?", is a big question and I will attempt to keep my comments and opinions on point.
The first thing that comes to mind is money, money, money. We are all here to accomplish the same thing, make a living. To that end you need walk the fine line between quality/customer service and profitability. These factors are completely integrated and inseparable. You can make a masterpiece of every project and provide the ultimate in customer service, drawings, permits, installation and maintenance but if you don't make a profit you won't be around to do that a second time. The other side of that coin is you can have your shop rate figured ten decimal places and have your overhead down to a bare minimum. You may be able to figure out how to build any sign, any color for $99.95 but if you put junk on the street, well you can only do that once as well. There is a balance that must be struck, you must provide your customer with the highest quality sign while maintaining a year 2000 profit margin.
Sign•Foam will help you do just that. The value of Sign•Foam is demonstrated in a few main area's. First, the longevity of the material. It is 100% water proof before it's painted, it is not affected by temperature changes, it is highly chemically resistant, it will not rot, decompose, or delaminate. Once machined it will retain that shape indefinitely. In fact it will outlast most of the establishments it's representing. There is value in that, value for your customer, and value for you.
Next may be ease of use. I will not disagree that there is a certain learning curve that goes along with this product, but that is true with just about everything in this trade. Where Sign•Foam has an advantage over any type of wood you may be using in that once you got the learning curve under your belt, no suprises. Sign•Foam is very predictable without the constant surprises and challenges of dealing with any organic products. You may not immediately see the value here, but when a customer drops a design on you lap you will know, with reasonable certainty how long the fabrication, painting and installation will take. Have you ever bid a redwood job, gone to your supplier only to find the cost of wood went up? Or maybe you start picking through the lumber pile only to find the only rails without knots are warped and the only rails that are straight, are full of knots. Either way it means more time and money than you had anticipated. Here an idea, go back to your customer and just tell him his sign will cost 20% more, NOT. The bottom line is Sign•Foam is more reliable.
Another advantage is in its' versatility. When you become proficient in working with Sign•Foam, you become an "expert" in many different fields. No more subbing out work that falls outside your area of expertise. For example there was a post awhile back about stone pillars that were made out of Sign•Foam, someone replied that they believed they could have set real stone for less money. Now I don't see how that possible but lets assume he's correct, that only works if you know how to set stone. Sign•Foam sign always boil down to machining and painting, get these down and the wood carver can make "metal letters", the sandblaster can cut "sandstone" or "marble" or "granite". There are also those projects that are "technically impossible". We had a project in AZ that required 1" thick water-jet cut sandstone letters adhered to 1" thick black/white plexi. The cutter predicted losing and charging for 50% of the letters from stress cracking. They never came up with a viable solution for the adhesion. We cut and machine letters in an afternoon, distressed and painted the next morning and attached with 100% Silicone. If you have ever subbed out or turned down a job because it fell outside you area of expertise, maybe Sign•Foam can help.
It is very true that working with Sign•Foam has some drawbacks, however they are predictable and manageable. It has long been my contention that you could get your wood, metal, or stone for free and I will make more profit on many jobs. That is the real bottom line to this or any other business.
Incidentally, Sign•Foam is a balanced chemical formula, what I mean by that is we can change any of the dominate physical properties of the material. However in doing so, some other property will be changed to maintain the balance. For example if you want us to make Sign•Foam stronger, we can do that, but it will be harder to paint. If you want Sign•Foam to be tougher, it will be harder to machine and blast. If you want it to be stronger, tougher and easy to paint and finish, it will cost more. We have tried to strike the most optimum balance in Sign•FoamII, if you think we need to go one way or the other let me know.
Thank you for your time.
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Thanks, Joe
Sign•FoamII
Dana Point, CA, USA
[This message has been edited by Joe Sceinski (edited October 25, 2000).]
