The Letterville BullBoard: Copyright infringement

This is topic Copyright infringement in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.letterville.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/502.html

Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :

This is related to Adrianne's post but I think it needs a separate heading as copyright needs to be discussed without other aspects of Disney or any other company attached.

Please discuss the idea of copyright without dragging opinions of companies into it.

I feel very strongly about copyrignt of the artist and or companies who own them.

I know how it feels to drive down the road and see a copy (and a lousy one at that) of my artwork used by someone else to promote their business. I've even had copies of my work used in a brochure that was mailed to me along with thousands of other folks. I wish I had the money to enforce the copyright on my work when I see it stolen. It just isn't right and it makes no difference how big or small the other guy is.

I know if someone was to use the artwork, mascots or names of our currrent businesses I would enforce it with all my might and resources available. It is worth it or the ideas are worth nothing.

I feel the same about software too. No matter how big or small the producing company is.

I look forward to opinions of others.

-dan

------------------
Dan Sawatzky
Sawatzky's Imagination Corporation
Cultus Lake , British Columbia
giggleridge@telus.net
www.giggleridge.com

"Isn't it great to do what you love and love what you do!"

Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :

Dan,
I respect your opinion, and agree with virtually everything you said....except the software part. A LOT of the BILLLIONAIRES we have today were shameless techno pirates yesterday. I am sorry, though I understand the argument about software and all, I just refuse to agree with that mentality. I SCRATCH out enough money every year to support my family of five, and if I can put more of my hard earned money aside or into that family, i am going to. That being said, I follow the billionaires example at all convenient opportunities.

Just my opinion, and not a very coherent one at that, it is 4:30 in the morning here, and I am going to bed!

------------------
Master's Touch Signs & Screenprinting
Clinton AR
5017456246
ICQ 17430008
"Imagine the Possibilities..."

Posted by Robin McIlvaine (Member # 1710) on :

Dan,
Beyond words in agreement thus my copyright#1 and #2 post. The sign artist does everything by the book (for the billboard that was photographed & sold for postcards) and yet somehow I feel like a whiner if I say ..."hey, what about ME"...give me some of the photographers art work or a one liner acknowledging MY design. Or the #2 post where a customer/friend takes a cartoon from the design I sold them & re-uses it on other adds of their own & re-sells it on t-shirts. When there was a verbal agreement...they wanted a different background design using my cartoon(It's the caricature I created to use on everyone's that wants...say a groundhog welding, plumbing, mechanicing etc...the town mascot)
It seems almost every customer would expect to pay a graphic artist for a design but they also ASSUMED they have purchased all rights when they buy from a sign artist. It is our job to educate them but what really burns me is the publishing co.s or T-SHIRT or any graphic business that knows better! A local publication here knowingly edits or deletes the background of the sign and uses the Air-brush lettering. They are collage educated people---I am not,,yet my work is good enough to be used by them. After 15 years,,,I now carry a one liner stating the artwork must be purchased separately. Maybe I would have learned that sooner had I went to collage too!

------------------

Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :

We have found that with complete agreements which clearly outline our fees and the release data are our best tool. Note copyright both on artwork and on designs on the finished signs as well. We also actually file copyrights which give us protection under federal law and with the value of most designs, piracy becomes a felonious offense. As a hint, we file on "clooected works, volume 1" etc., a month or so at a time. Cheap insurance and with those who won't cooperate with paying for use of our material, we need only contact the local DA. A letter from their office really stirs things up and we are gaining the same reputation as Disney.

------------------
Kent Smith
Smith Sign Studio
Greeley, Colorado, USA
kent@smithsignstudio.com

Posted by Larry Elliott (Member # 263) on :

Dan,
A lot of it comes down to 'if you can create you will, if can't you'll steal'. This is not a comment directed at anyone in particular nor is it meant to be a statement to cover every non-artist. There are concientious people that understand the 'why' of statements made against creative theivery and there are those that will never grasp the concept. They seem to think that if someone created it and they were paid for their time then it's free for anyone to use it, not. I strongly feel that if I create a layout, piece of art, poem, song or idea that I retain the ownership until I 'choose' to sell the rights or give them away, not because someone thinks I've made too much money in my life that my creative talents are no longer mine. A month or so back there was a survey on the web about the Napster site, a lot of the respondents thought it was OK to download music (anybody's music) because it was 'on the web'. Just because someone bought a copy of a CD and put it on the web doesn't mean that the law hasn't been broken when you download a copy. A few years ago I made some simple signs for a Pawn Shop, nothing elaborate just a clean professional layout. The guy then needed his van lettered but went to another shop for the lettering, they tried to reproduce the lettering style and layout but made somewhat of an amateurish mess, I stopped in to do a little business with him and comment on the lettering and that if he wanted to use 'my layout' he should have come to me as I was the owner of it. He said 'Well I paid for it and I'll use when I want to'. I showed him a copy of the statement with the disclaimer that 'all artwork, etc., etc., was the copyrighted property of Elliott Design and could not be reproduced in any manner without my written permission. He never had another sign reproduced by my layout but he did go into the 'sign business'. Bought him a cutter and software and told everyone he was going to 'put that S.O.B. out of business' yeah, right! Like someone with no experience and a big grudge was going to put me under, his 'sign business' lasted about 3 months and he lost a ton of money on equipment and supplies. His ignorance to the fact that creative works are of value, cost him a friendship and a lot of money. He was also caught cheating in a game of small-stakes poker and they threatened to cut his throat, seems some folks never learn, the whole world is their apple and they'll steal a bite when they can.

------------------
Larry

Elliott Design
McLemoresville, Tn.

If you can't find the time to do it right,
where gonna find the time to do it over?

Posted by Gilead Stellar (Member # 158) on :

I've done a lot of display art for grocery stores; foamboard cut-outs of people or animals dancing around, eating pizza, holding signs etc.

From time to time someone asks me to paint the Muppets into the display and I just say no.

But at other times we have permmision to use a character as a promotional tie-in. Henson studio made a deal with Dole bananas and each store was granted a limited extension of copywrite to use the characters to sell videos and bananas. (wierd business)
But I knew better than to sign my name to the artwork because next month they were using the same art to sell something else and that's a big no no.

Then there are companies who have permanently bought the license to certain characters. Donald Duck Orange juice can draw Donald all they like or hire you to do it, but you cannot depict him holding drinking or even looking directly at the product, name or logo.

But now I have a question. When the recent Star Wars movie was coming out Pepsi had licensing to use Star Wars stuff on their packaging. The local distributer approached me to do some art for a big display they were doing in a store.
This is the type of thing where I'm unclear as to my legal position. Does Pepsi, as a holder of a limited extension of copywrite, have the right to extend that right to me or would I have to obtain rights seperately? I tried to contact Lucas Films, but they were a little busy at the time.
Did the printer that did the packaging have to obtain rights or do they, and I, as subcontractors of Pepsi fall under the umbrella of Pepsi's license?
Should I go back to school?

------------------
Gilead
Phoenix AZ
http://members.tripod.com/Stellargraphics/Gilead.htm

Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :

Hi Dan, and all,

My opinion, because I'm not a lawyer, is not to figure what you can and can't do, what you will get sued for and what you wont, if you can "slip" past the rules and not get caught , and yada yada yada.

What you suggestd by this post carried at least two different subjects....so lets just concentrate on one subject.

Protect yourself and your artwork up front is really the main consideration. Most of us dont have the time or the money to hire lawyers to prove we have the copyrights.

So, all the laws aside, there is a certain procedure to follow so you don't get caught up in this trouble.

1. Bid the customer's job first.
2. Provide a design, layout, sketch only if you win the bid.
3. After a 60% downpayment for the job, THEN YOU CREATE THE DESIGN.

Follow that procedure and you wont have any problems.

------------------------------------
Here is a problem we all face. A customer has been getting his work done from another shop for years, and he decides he is going to go elsewhere...namely to YOU. He wants his logo on his truck doors. YOU DIDN'T DESIGN HIS LOGO THEN YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO LETTER HIS TRUCK WITHOUT THE FIRST SIGN SHOP'S PERMISSION. If we follow that rule we might as well get out of the sign business. When new clients come my way I never bother getting ANYBODY'S permission to do their artwork, and I don't think any shop does. Do YOU?

------------------
Go Get 'Em..... :)
AKA Raptorman on #Letterheads mIRC Chat
Draper The Signmaker
Bloomington Illinois USA

Proud 2-yr. $upporter of this Web Site (May 1999-May 2001)

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

Gilead,

I would tend to think that Pepsi has the licensing to use the Star Wars artwork for their promotion only.

This would provide Pepsi with the rights to produce and distribute advertising displays to be sent to their distributors, who then send the displays to the participating vendors.
The contract is most likely written specifically to include the firm that produced the displays for Pepsi, but for this promotion only.

Once the promotion ends, so does the contract.

Normally, when a promotion like that is over, the advertiser (in this case, Pepsi) confiscates the advertising displays by having their distributors remove the materials from their vendors or ensuring the vendors destroy or remove the materials from the premises.
Sometimes the advertising materials end up in the trash, other times employees of the disrtibutors or vendors take the materials home for their own collection.
When I worked at McDonald's a ways back, I was put in charge of coordinating the promotions and setting up the displays.
There were always specific instructions included with the displays that they were to be destroyed upon the end of the promotion. Most of the time they were tossed into the trash, other times some of the employees (myself included) would take them home in hopes that some day they will have a collector's value. =)

Basically, I dont think the vendor falls under the umbrella of Pepsi's temporary licensing. Only Pepsi and their printers have the rights to produce the materials.

Of course, it all comes down to how the contract is written.

------------------
Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :

quote:
. YOU DIDN'T DESIGN HIS LOGO THEN YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO LETTER HIS TRUCK WITHOUT THE FIRST SIGN SHOP'S PERMISSION. If we follow that rule we might as well get out of the sign business. When new clients come my way I never bother getting ANYBODY'S permission to do their artwork, and I don't think any shop does. Do YOU?

This thought has crossed my mind as well.
The issue of retaining reproduction rights in connection with a sign layout leads ultimately to questions like the above.
I admit that the idea of getting permission from the previous sign artist to reproduce a customer's truck lettering seems adsurd.
Is this the intent of the copyright law in the U.S.?
On the other hand, historically, we sign people have seldom been taken too seriously as artists. So the sound of so many voices saying, "I'm not gonna take it anymore!" is a welcome one.

I see a whole elephant full of questions in this matter. And I'm skeptical whether they all have easy answers.
Let me think out loud here.

No easy answers.
When we create a sign for someone, we are often creating an identity for them, whether we call it a logo or not. It may involve as simple a thing as choice of letter style and color, but it may serve to identify them, and only them, very effectively from then on.
Does it seem reasonable that we sell a customer something which can, by default, come to identify them and no one else, and then try to retain ownership of it?

What if, in Dave's example above, the trucks said, "Joe's Plumbing," in Helvetica plain?
Could the artist still claim sole reproduction rights?
Would it make a difference if the word "Joe's" was in script? Or in someone's signature casual? Would 'uniqueness' of the letter style be the deciding factor in this case? And what about the 3M logo, what's up with that? Nothing unique about Helvetica bold in red, is there? Or is it unique in its plainness?

Signs are unique.
It's of note that very few works of art are created whose primary purpose is to identify the end user. This is also true of package design, but certainly not of book authoring or landscape painting.
Signs are thus a unique medium.
When does a sign layout become a 'logo design?'
If a client does not request or commission a logo design, only simple truck identification, do we properly retain reproduction rights?
Is it fair to do so without telling him or her before starting the job?
All of us have designed sign layouts that were good enough, at least in the customer's eyes, to pass as a logo. Can we then demand, after the fact, that we be paid 'royalties' if the layout is reproduced, if it becomes, by default, a logo? Further, how would a judge rule?

A lawsuit involving the scenario mentioned above by Dave would be an interesting test case. And I don't think it would be so clear cut, in either direction, as some of us might think.
Most of us include 'design time' as a line item when we figure a quote.
Have we not then been paid for our design?
Would a judge think this way?

Dan A. contributed a well-written article in a recent trade magazine about the value of a logo design. He mentioned the 'intrinsic' value of a design. Technically, a design on paper has little intrinsic value. It's like the intrinsic value of a dollar bill that is worth... what, four cents, to produce? Nevertheless, his point was well made: the value of a design can easily exceed the sum of the value of materials and labor. But what is the reason for this? It is because of perceived value.

Perceived value.
If a design is worth, by itself, say, 300 dollars, it is not just because we say it is. It is also because our customer agrees that it is. The higher we can push this 'agreed value,' the more the design is worth. If we value a design at 300 dollars and our client does not, then its value is really less. If no one will buy it, its effective value is zero. This, of course, points up the importance of salesmanship.

Dan also mentioned how a logo design for a large company is worth more than for a small one. This is very logical to me.
A large company has much more at stake. They are willing to put a greater value on their corporate identity than a smaller business might. Thus, the greater 'perceived value' can allow a logo to sell for much more.
When I was in Peoria, it was rumored that Caterpillar Tractor paid five thousand dollars for their stencil-looking 'C'-in-a-square logo. That's a lot of money for a design in the eyes of a sign dog like me. But it's certainly a tiny drop in the bucket of a big advertising budget, and definately a small price to pay for an effective world identity.

I have more rhetorical questions to ask on this subject, but my post is already long, and I'd like to hear the thinking of others. I know this: for whatever amount of originality I can produce, I want to be recognized and compensated. But I don't have this matter of retaining reproduction rights fully sorted out in my mind yet. Do you?

Brad

------------------
Brad Ferguson
4782 West Highway 22
Paris AR 72855
501-963-2642
signbrad@cswnet.com

Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :

Sometimes this question will last days after days in debate...
But if I had a company that came to my doorstep with a fine and effective logo design done by a local Shop,My first question would be WHY???? if it is working for them and the Graphics are stable and long lasting then there has to be a reason of leaving the last company for new work to be done...
I would like to see a release of the Artwork and can assure them if if they don't have one I can re-design a new and improved Logo for their liking but with the understanding that this Design will come with a buyout of the Graphics.
If he still wants your shop to do the work then inform him that you will contact the other business for written approval and there may be a royalty or transfer cost on the logo...Contact the other company and tell them of the ordeal...You may have written writes to go about your business or you may be stopped in your tracks...
I would like to see all of us help each other in the business and make a little money then one cutting everyones throat...
If I did a job for someone and said it's free then it better be and i have no right to go back on my word!!!!
It still boils down to how proud you are in you line of work or how hungry you are...
The next time you see your work done by someone else walk into their shop after the fact and say NICE JOB on the tracing and ask if they can really draw anything!!!!

Stephen
Raven/2000

------------------
Raven/2000
Airbrushed by Raven
Lower sackville N.S.
deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca

UBB.classic™ 6.7.2