The Letterville BullBoard: Another way to think about pricing...

This is topic Another way to think about pricing... in forum Old Archives at The Letterville BullBoard.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.letterville.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/385.html

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

Do most of you price signs that carry information (parking, entrance, hours, etc.) differently than signs carrying an advertising message, such as the primary ID for a given business? Generally, I ask for (and get) FAR more per square foot for signs that advertise. It seems most of the really lowball prices we hear about are for informational signage, though not always. I see clients placing more value upon identity and advertising - do you?

See? I CAN write a post about pricing that doesn't get everyone wound up like an eight-day clock!

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :

Cam,
I would agree on this point with you.One of the main reasons probably would be the amount of time and thought involved in the design..when a sign is created for identity,I always try to do something a little different ..to try to set the customer apart from the rest of the world ,therefore extra time is involved...and I find customers are willing to pay for this..not all but most will..
On the other hand...how creative can a sign be that says"No Parking" or one that says"No Disruptive Posts Please"......?

------------------
Michael Boone
Sign Painter
5828 Buerman Rd.Sodus,NY 14551
Ontime @localnet.com

Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :

I normally sell the logo first off, then the sign charge is separate, no matter what goes on the sign, whether it be a logo or info only.

However, if the logo for the customer already exsists, I haven't been charging more for identity signs unless I spend more time on the design to punch up the look.

It's something I had never thought of, but will consider it in the future for sure.

------------------
Graphic Impact
located in BC Canada
gisigns@sprint.ca

Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :

Cam,

Base on my experiences over the last couple of years, I agree with you 100%.

------------------
Compost Happens!

:) Design is Everything! :)
Glenn Taylor
in beautiful North Carolina

http://members.tripod.com/taylor_graphics
walldog@geeksnet.com

Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :

In our seminars on pricing, Judi and I stress one basic principle: all signs have value. This value is made up of three basic parts: artistic value, intrinsic value, purpose value. Artistic value includes all of the layout and design factors. Intrinsic value is the materials and overhead. Purpose value is the job that the sign does for the customer. The artistic and purpose are certainly more variable than the intrinsic as a directional or rules sign does not give the customer the same return as an advertising sign does. Consequently the amount of effort varies accordingly. Intrinsic value however is more constant considering overhead which includes compensation for time. You should be compensated for functional time the same no matter the complexity of the job. This is not to be confused with being compensated for creative time associated with the artistic value of signs.

------------------
Kent Smith
Smith Sign Studio
Greeley, Colorado, USA
kent@smithsignstudio.com

Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :

Bingo - you hit the nail right on the head Cam -

Its not really about time and materials. Its about the value of the advertising.

You don't see billboard rates charged by time and materials. They charge by estimated impressions. Why do signs get priced differently?

And it goes to the question of the experience you bring to the table in effectively promoting and marketing businesses. Thats what you should be charging for -

------------------
Dan Antonelli
Graphic D-Signs, Inc.
Union, NJ
www.graphicd-signs.com
dan@graphicd-signs.com

"You won't get wise with the sleep still in your eyes, no matter what your dream may be" - Rush

Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :

O.K., I sell the typical 12 x 18 .080 gauge single sided aluminum sign with border, one color vinyl, white background, no more than 13 words, standard typestyle (helv. bold) for $33.00 each. Takes me about a half an hour (time with customer, layout, cut and apply). Material cost: $5.00. I know exactly what I make on these types of signs. Wish I could sell more. But, this is the least I'll charge for that type of sign (which I call "directionals"), and I at least make my basic shop rate. On signs that require more design (thus higher value), my pricing only goes up from there. Remember, it takes basically the same amount of materials and engineering to build a Taurus as it does a Lincoln. Why can't I buy a Lincoln for $20,000.00?

------------------
Tim Whitcher
Quality Signs & Design
107 E Adrian St
Blissfield, MI 49228
qualitysigns@cass.net

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

Hmmmm.... a pricing post suggesting that prices are too low is seen as a controversy, and gets 66 replies and counting... but a post about pricing that proposes we think a bit differently about the value of different types of signs, stops at seven.

This tends to tell me something about the way people think about this issue, but I am not quite sure what.

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :

i think you might be reading a little too much into this cam.

did you say "suggest"?
that last post was a little more than a "suggestion" bubba.
hahahahahaah

mark

------------------
Mark Fair

Mark Fair Signs
http://www.markfair.com

flash site... http://www.markfair.com/flash.html
I Don't Work... I dis-PLAY

2162 Mt. Meigs Road
Montgomery, Alabama 36107
334-262-4449

mark@markfair.com

"Mark Fair is a Proud Contributor to The Letterhead Site!"

Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :

I once knew an elderly gentleman in the Adirondack Mountains..he would seek us in to his favorite trout streams to catch some of the area's most beautiful little fish....the Native Brook Trout....they will come to a fly with eagerness sometimes and sometimes they will have nothing to do with any kind of being caught...The ole guy would always tell us.."Boys....them are some purdy cagey lil fellas...Brook Trout are funny people!!!!!"
Maybe sign folk are a lot like the Brook Trout..
Maybe we're funny people too......?
Never can tell...or can ya?

------------------
Michael Boone
Sign Painter
5828 Buerman Rd.Sodus,NY 14551
Ontime @localnet.com

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

You trying to say we "rise to the bait", Michael? hehehehe!

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :

Cam...a sign is a sign. It doesn't matter to us what it says. We factor in the time it takes to do the job plus the materials and submit a bid high enough which allows us to make a profit and low enough which will hopefully insure that we get the job. If we get 80% of our bids, we know we are competitive and at the "end of the day", we've made enough money to meet expenses and have a little something left over. Who cares what the sign says? We're more interested in the time we have to spend on "that" sign...not what the wording is. We're also "extremely" aware that most customers aren't looking for a Rembrandt but a nice, effective sign which will do the job that is required. Simple and clean aren't bad words in the sign business.

------------------
Louis A. Lazarus
Milt's Sign Service, Inc.
20 So. Linden Ave. #5B
650-588-0490
fontking1a@aol.com

Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :

Louis....unfortunatly, the"Joe Wino's" and the "Quickie-Stickie" Shops also produce "simple and clean" signs....BUT, they still look like "Crap"
As professionals we should be a "cut above" them!

------------------
Si Allen #562
La Mirada, CA. USA
(714) 521-4810
ICQ # 330407
"SignPainters do It with Longer Strokes!"

Brushasaurus on Chat

Gladly supporting this BB !

Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :

I agree with Louis, nothing wrong with simple and clean. That also means good materials, professional in your manner and distinctive looking. I also try to sell up to a higher quality sign with more a more custom effect and look to the sign.
What I won't do is give away a more custom sign for the same price. For years there was a sign painter around here doing excellent, custom painted walls and signs. I had quoted on some of the same and always lost out to him. Fair enough I thought, I considered him one of the best in the area and figured the customers went for what they considered the best design. He no longer paints full time, but does construction work 9 months out of the year because he has told many of my customers " there is no money in the sign business". He had it half right: give them good design, but he didn't charge for it. After talking to him I learned his portfolio was more important then the money.
How about both. If they don't want to pay
give a nice professional sign. If they will pay more, take out all the stops and give them a gem.

------------------
Wright Signs
Wyandotte, Michigan
Since 1978
http://www.wrightsigns.bigstep.com

Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :

Cam.why don't you start an association for the industry ? Maybe like a union with shops conforming to "prevailing rates" , standard charges for certain type and size signs,or certain set amounts per hour,but then everyone would have to go fast all the time.
Oh well,maybe theres a way ? Roger

------------------
Roger Bailey
Rapid Tac Incorporated
Merlin, OR

Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :

I'm happy with the 30% of quoted jobs I get now because they involve REAL design for customers that know good design and are willing to pay the extra money for it... or maybe they just dont want to shop around cause they are lazy.. who knows..

If I got 80% of the jobs I quoted, I would be stuck inside all day with a ton of stupid little pathetic bargain hunter graphics consuming all my time and more importantly, wasting materials that could be going to better, higher dollar jobs.

I run what alot of you would call a "quickie sticky" shop.. mostly vinyl.. but I always push potential customers to go with something different. Funky design instead of boring, mass produced fonts.. airbrushing.. whatever I can draw up in five minutes and still charge $100 (or more) for.

My life is great. I get to spend the day "coloring".. and I only gotta do it a few hours a day.. and some days I dont even do anything except go for a swim in the lake.

I'm not stuck inside working on bargain signs, I'm outside enjoying my summer and I run a one-man shop!

Pricing all depends on the kind of work you want to do, and the amount of time you want to spend doing it.

I prefer to do creative, original work (we all do, right?) and spend as little time working as possible.

If you want to do the same, you NEED to PUSH your creative talents onto your customers and charge whatever you need to cover materials plus mark-up, labor X2, and an imaginary number that represents the perceived value and what you honestly want to put in your wallet.

I'm with Cam, it is about the perceived value of the sign. The value goes two ways though. Value in the customer's eye is different than value in the sign shop's eye.

How valueable do YOU perceive the work to be regarding keeping your business afloat and making a PROFIT while making better use of your time?

If you spend your whole day doing "informational" signage or other signage at the price of an informational sign, are you really making a profit or are you simply paying the bills and have enough money for food?
Are you enjoying life outside of work assuming you even have a life outside of work?
Are you able to splurge once in a while? Maybe get that new Holley carb for your hot rod restoration project without having to worry about paying a bill with the money instead?

Are you waiting on payment from one job so you can afford the materials for another job?

Are you putting off trips or vacations so you can fisnish up some of the backordered work in your shop?

Come on.. how do you WANT to live?

I'm all about the quality of life. I'm 24 years old and on average I work 20-25 hours per week. I've already done the 18 hour workday thing in the past and frankly, it sucks. I've done the "work four months straight without a day off" thing at the engineering firm and that sucks even more. And in my mid to late teens I had three jobs, which meant FOUR YEARS of working without a day off, although I admit that was by choice so I could put myself through SCHOOL at the SAME time.

So.. here I am.. 24 years old.. and man, I just want to retire! =) Of course, I've still got at least 40 more years of work ahead of me so until then...

I'm keeping my schedule between 20 and 25 hours per week, and I'll continue to try and limit my work to stuff I'm happy to put my signature on.

Of course the occasional "done at the snap of a finger" job will get through, but I won't try to make a living at it.

------------------
Mike Pipes
Digital Illusion Custom Graphics
Lake Havasu City, AZ
http://www.stickerpimp.com

Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :

Louis. No offense, my friend. But your response displayed the worst example of the "selling signs by the pound" mentality that I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

You dont't CARE what the sign says!? Your customer sure as hell does! And a customer who's not a complete imbecile will pay more for the same "simple and clean" sign that identifies and advertises his business, than he will for the same size/materials/colors/layout that tell someone where to park.

But, hey, you apparently WANT 80% of the jobs you bid. If you are happy, I'm happy. But if I had to do the amount of work that you do to make the same money, frankly, I'd quit and go park cars for a living.

Simple and clean are not dirty words. Neither is getting every bit of what a job is worth. Or, perhaps the appropriate phrase is, "stupid is as stupid does."

------------------
"A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)

Cam
Finest Kind Signs
256 S. Broad St.
Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379
"Award winning Signs since 1988"

UBB.classic™ 6.7.2