Last month I received a call from a business that had several office doors that needed some changes and lettering on one set of double doors (all glass) that had been replaced due to vandalism. The manager said that all the lettering was gold leaf and they wanted to match the existing lettering. Because of my backlog of work, having to be gone several days, plus having to see after my 85 year old mother who had just fallen and broken her hip, I told her that it would probably be about a month before I could get to it, but I would be glad to apply some vinyl lettering to the doors in the interim. She appreciated the gesture, but wanted to wait on the real stuff - didn't want to junk up her nice offices with vinyl.
This morning I finally made it over to do some measuring and identify the lettering style. She proudly displayed the existing doors and the "fancy" lettering. I'm not sure that she saw my jaw hit the floor when I saw gold vinyl (not Signgold - just plain shiny vinyl that changes to silver after a few months) all done in Brush Script. She didn't believe me when I informed her that what she had was not gold but only vinyl. The person doing the work had assured her that the lettering was in pure gold and would last a lifetime. Some had already begun to pull up on the edges due to cleaning the glass.
I didn't ask what she had paid for this fake job, but she insisted that it was real gold, even when I showed here that some of the exterior doors had already turned silver.
Upon informing her that I could replace what she had with real gold leaf, she declined and just wanted me to match what was there. "Would it be a problem for me to match the special lettering that the previous artist had used?" Well, it might be a stretch, but I told her that I was almost positive that I could get fairly close.
How sad that there are those in our profession that hood-wink (is that a real term in your part of the world?) the public and misrepresent themselves and their work. I will replace the gold vinyl and leave her satisfied, but will leave the job unsigned and less that satisfied with the ones in my noble craft that give us all a less than superior image.
------------------ Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas rchapman@vvm.com
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I've run into it a bit here as well. Each time the offender was a franchise shop. When I showed a sample of what real gold leaf lettering on glass looked like, each client would say that was what they had asked for. When I put the sample next to the original lettering, the clients got a bit upset with the previous signshop. In fact, one said that she was going to file suit. She showed me the original quote and invoice and each said 23k gold leaf lettering.
As professionals, we really need to work to educate our clients.
We have a guy around here who keeps going out of business and re-appearing under a different name. He did a gilded dimensional letter about 3 ft tall on an outdoor sign in dutch metal, claiming it was gold leaf. Of course, after a few months it went bad and he can't be found. How do people like that sleep?
hi ray, it's guys like that, that put this trade in a bad light. honesty is always the best policy. what is the guy gonna say when it turns to silver? "er, uh i won't charge you any extra for the silver leaf that's now on your window!" geez, how un-professional!
"Mark Fair is a Proud Contributor to The Letterhead Site!"
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Here's a sort of scary thought. Maybe these guys told the clients that it was gold leaf, because they really DON"T KNOW what real gold leaf is. With the inexperience and lack of training that I've witnessed whenever new franchise type shops open, I might even accept this as a very real possibility. Some of these folks have only a nodding acquaintance with some of the more advanced techniques that have been offered to past customers....the more traditional things, like Gold Leaf.
If they've passed a window with a genuine gold leaf job on it, they'd just probably assume that it was somehow accomplished by using some sort of film and a plotter. Face it, if that's the limit of your knowledge base, your thinking is LIMITED to what you actually know. This in turn, will limit what you can sell.Possibly, this is how this customer ended up with psuedo gold leaf.
------------------ Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail kjmlhenry@home.
10,000 sperm swimming for that egg...and I won!
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Take a book of leaf to the job site and a little sizing Take a brush put some size on the window and wait to set up then lay alittle leaf onto it and somehow they will notice the difference.. Make sure the Gold Leaf is in it's oridinal package so they can read it. Tell them to proceed to re-question the company that did the job...All in all you may get the real Gold job or the other company has to replace the conterfiet. You don't loose in the long run as you have just built the trust with the customer... You can do plotter gold Leafing with a Stencil and Sizing. It will make your job easier and you can still charge the full price to it...
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Stephen,
How do you do gold leaf with stenciling and size? Not surface gilding but "real" water size gilding.
I am assuming you are referring to surface gilding using a quick size. Have done that some on vehicles.
------------------ Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas rchapman@vvm.com
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Where do you guys get those great competitors? I'd give my left,uh,eyetooth for a local shop that sold gold mylar and told the client it was real gold. Not only do the results destroy their credibility, it makes you look great by comparison.
I don't sell much glass gold, but I do a ton of surface gilding. Used to get a lot of "why not use gold paint" until I did a sample piece lettered in gold leaf next to gold paint. I also have a glass sample case with various styles of gold lettering, with a gold mylar sample for comparison.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hi Raymond Remember the question was on Glass doors... I still use Luco's Quick sizing.. Flat surface application. I use GSP stencil mask..
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posted by Terry Teague (Member # 796) on :
Stencil to do a gold job on glass? I suppose you back it up with vinyl too.
Raymond we're getting to old!
Think I'll take a couple of gel caps and lie down for awhile.............
------------------ Terry Teague James River Signs Reeds Spring, MO tlteague@tri-lakes.net
Posted by Peter (Member # 1062) on :
A customer once asked me to look at the "gold leaf" lettering on his truck doors, which he said was fading. On close inspection, it was nothing more than metallic gold paint and the sign guy had taken HIS THUMB and "spun" the "leaf!!" The customer said, "But the sign guy told me it was gold leaf..."
"Mark Fair is a Proud Contributor to The Letterhead Site!"
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Maybe my age is catching up with me, Terry. Mark, I'll step down when they start throwing dirt on me.
Whenever I think of gold leaf on glass I assume that it is water gild done in reverse with loose leaf and gelatin to produce a shiny gild - outlined and shaded.
Stephen, I guess I didn't communicate very well - my question was refering to how you could do a water gild gold job with stencils. I understand that you can do a sticky size gold leaf job on glass and have a nice matt finish - have done that with a burnished outline and matt centers. I just couldn't understand how you could keep the gelatin water size inside a stencil, apply the loose leaf gold, back up the gold, and then remove the stencil without it damaging the gold - especially on a vertical surface.
------------------ Chapman Sign Studio Temple, Texas rchapman@vvm.com
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hey Terry That was a good Laugh!!!! Vinyl as a backing on Leaf.. Yah NOT!!!! I guess you are the old master on gilding the letters and then placing your leaf and backing your letters with some black with a touch of japan dryers. Oh I fogot you must take the straight razor and trim your edges and after the fact take some cotton swab the excess leaf off the surrounding areas of the letters.. Don't forget your mal-Stick before you leave the shop OK!. There is nothing wrong with Gel Caps but there is other sizing on the market that will produce the same results.. If you believe not OK... Your the one who doesn't like new tricks to old ideas... This still was a topic on metalic glue backs against True Gold..
Don't leave your POUNCE PATTERN in the Shop!!! You'll need something for the outline....
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hey Terry That was a good Laugh!!!! Vinyl as a backing on Leaf.. Yah NOT!!!! I guess you are the old master on gilding the letters and then placing your leaf and backing your letters with some black with a touch of japan dryers. Oh I forgot you must take the straight razor and trim your edges and after the fact take some cotton swab to get the excess leaf off the surrounding areas of the letters.. Don't forget your mal-Stick before you leave the shop OK!. There is nothing wrong with Gel Caps but there is other sizing on the market that will produce the same results.. If you believe not OK... Your the one who doesn't like new tricks to old ideas... This still was a topic on metalic glue backs against True Gold..
Don't leave your POUNCE PATTERN in the Shop!!! You'll need something for the outline....
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I agree with Ken Henry's statement about some "signshops" not knowing the difference. When I do a gold job I always show the customer the outside wrapping that the gold came in. And if I'm using Signgold, I let them read the little flyer that comes in the box.Oh yeah, don't you like it when your customer (truck driver) chases around the little pieces of gold that fly around while your spinning it, It's look like they chasing little golden butterflies.
------------------ Signs by Alicia Jennings Since 1987 Have Lipstick, will travel.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
"black with a touch of japan dryers..." sounds like a little knowledge could be a dangerous thing. I HAVE seen gold leaf (Yup, real gold, water gilded) backed up with vinyl. Sounded crazy, but for 3/8" copy in Times Roman, why not? If it works, it works. I have heard of using masks for varnish centers too, sound like it should work. Either way, it's still not gold mylar!
And as for Raymond's customer, I think of Mark Twain's admonition against teaching a pig table manners: It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig.
------------------ "A wise man concerns himself with the truth, not with what people believe." - Aristotle
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. - Raoul Duke (Hunter S. Thompson)
Cam Finest Kind Signs 256 S. Broad St. Pawcatuck, Ct. 06379 "Award winning Signs since 1988"
[This message has been edited by Cam Bortz (edited February 17, 2000).]
Posted by Terry Teague (Member # 796) on :
Stephen, If you use a computer cut mask and apply size to create a surface to then stick the gold onto do you peel the mask before applying the gold or after?
If you have gone this far to do a gold window my question is why wouldn't you use black vinyl to back it up......seems to me it could work.
Sorry if it seems like I was dissing you a little.
Would you explain how you do a window with your method so I could understand better?
------------------ Terry Teague James River Signs Reeds Spring, MO tlteague@tri-lakes.net
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Not a problem Terry we all vent sometimes Me included. I apply mask front or reverse on glass panel apply sizing to it and allow tack up time. remove mask when time is right and look at size for spider webbing.If so then clean away if you can..Lay my leaf down and allow to dry.. clean any areas around letters with razor or cloth.. Allow standing time and go back to back up with Midnight black with a drop or two of dryers. Sure vinyl will back the gold but then again you have a edge on the window surface and the customer is going to clean the window at times with windex It has amonia in it and will start killing the adhesve of the vinyl.. Clear coating the paint and gold will insure longer life. This is my mad Man's way and it seems to work... Sorry for my rude statements in the past!!! I forget sometimes that i am around friends not foes..
------------------ Raven/2000 Airbrushed by Raven Lower sackville N.S. deveausdiscovery@sprint.ca
Posted by Print Wright (Member # 850) on :
Haven't gilded but as I intend to have been studying it up. In Gold Leaf Techniques by Kent Smith he describes using a mask for size or varnish, allowing it to dry before removing and then applying the gold Print Wright Australia
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Posted by Jordan Sign Company (Member # 230) on :
Hello Ray Chapman, I cant get over the fact of some so called "Vinyl jockeys" who have the nerve to call themselves signpainters who haven't the faintest idea of gilding glass windows or doors. I see the stupid answers on here and can't beleive what I'm reading. Gues I'm gettin too old to be in this business anymore. Been letterin now for almost 60 years and still learning this trade Just grin and bear it I guess, we all hafta learn sometime
Ya see what happens when the Mafia gets hold of a sign plotter.
------------------ wherever you are there you are.
Posted by Print Wright (Member # 850) on :
I may be a "Vinyl Jockey" but I am prepared to stretch my horizons. In this entire district, to my knowledge, there is not one gold gilded sign. Are the Sign Painters here not Sign Painters because they don't gild? Print Wright Australia
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Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
It's obvious that there are some who don't know glass gilding from surface gilding - even after it's explained to them. Gilding on glass with varnish or oil size is NOT glass gilding. I tried to refrain from posting this. Still practicing typing the correct way. I've done a bit of glass gilding, never became a master at it, now I'm learning to type.
As my post stated, size OR varnish. The size for glass gilding. After the mask is removed and gold applied, the work is hand painted or, I presume, screenprinted
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Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
I have admiration for anyone who is trying to learn this craft these days. It will stay alive as long as someone's doing it. There are still some customers who want the best. I just noticed some gold on a window right down the street from me here, on the window of a building being renovated, the gold's on not backed up yet, I keep looking to see who's doing it. I didn't think anyone was doing glass gilding around here anymore. It inspires me to try it again, but I don't think I could make any money, I'd be too slow.
Hmmm, size in a mask? on glass? Geletan size? the kind you flood on with a brush and then use xxglass leaf on it? I have used a mask on the outside of the glass for a pattern, I have applied sign gold and backed it up with a black vinyl shade on the inside of the glass I have glass gilded with varnish centers and such with patent gold even, but I have never done glass gold with a mask, I need info Bill PS maybe some pictures or step by step? (I'm 60 but not over the hill yet)LOL
------------------ Bill & Barbara Biggs Art's Sign Service, Inc. Clute, Texas, USA Home of The Great Texas Mosquito Festival Proud Supporter of the Letterheads Website MailTo:twobees@tgn.net
Posted by Louie Pascuzzi (Member # 1373) on :
There is nothing as attractive as fine gold glass lettering.Now that it is becoming a rare find, I always admire it when I see it. The closest we come to speeding up the process is to silk screen the backing paint when we have multiple doors or windows to do. Outside of that, it brushes, gilders tips and razor blades for us. Sell the customer a good glass job and the referrals keep coming in. The vinyl just doesn't compare. I'm glad I was paying attention the days that Glen Silva was teaching glass gold at Butera. Louie
------------------ Lou Pascuzzi Economy Sign Co. Fine Hand Lettering since 1973 Danbury, Ct 203-748-4580 "IOAFS"
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
we recently had a job here at mark fair signs. for the Alabama State Bar, reproduction of the state seal of alabama on several interior windows.(circular in design)
me and my "gold" expert and "shop boy" chuck berg www.markfair.com/graphicstudios devised a technique using a reverse -cut high performance vinyl, applied clear size, then gold leafed (from behind) then backed up with vinyl. it worked great! i will post a sample panel of glass we experimented with before doing the actual job.
hey terry, take a couple of Gel Caps, and call me in the morning!
(i don't claim to be a goldleaf expert, but i do play one on TV)
"Mark Fair is a Proud Contributor to The Letterhead Site!"
[This message has been edited by Mark Fair Signs (edited February 22, 2000).]
Posted by Louis A Lazarus (Member # 763) on :
Raymond...I have done "traditional" window gold for twenty years and believe or not...you can use vinyl as your mask. The trick is to use High Performance vinyl with a wet installation. Then, it's just a matter of water sizing where the letters are and applying the leaf as you would normally. You would be surprised at the time it saves. You can then outline as you would and backup. The trick is using thin vinyl and being fast enough to lay the leaf and peel the vinyl before the vinyl has a chance to adhere. It does work...great. Believe it or not, you can also use High Performance as a stencil on awnings. That would take too long to explain, but it cuts the time down by a tremendous amount. It all comes down to ingenuity and using the tools you have ...wisely. I always wondered if the first guy to cut plywood on a table saw thought he was cheating by not using his hand saw...or just making use of technology.
Personally, for the sake of longevity, I wouldn't trust a premium 2 mil vinyl to last much more than 10 years. Even the manufacturers only guarantee the product for 7 at best. That said however, I'm not above using current tools or technology to accomplish a task with more speed or efficiency. I have done "traditional water guilded" gold leaf windows using a stencil, and this is how I go about it.
1. The layout is done using Graphic Advantage software 6.21 2. A mask is then cut in reverse on the plotter, and the outlines and shades are weeded out so that they are clear when applied to the glass. 3. The mask is positioned onto the glass using a wet application method, and making absolutely sure that everything is "down tight". The glass is then thoroughly dried, and you simply paint in the clear areas with FineGold's Backup Black. 4. The stencil and all centres are then removed using an x-acto knife and/or a pin vise and pin. This should be done before the black sets up hard, so that your edges come out cleanly. Too soon, and you will get the wet paint "spider webbing"...too late, and you get brittle edges. 5. After the stencil has been removed, I again clean the window with spray-on BonAmi and a soft cloth. Dry thoroughly, and you are ready to apply your first guild right over all open areas. Burnish as normal, second guild to make any necessary patches, and when dry, you're ready to "back-up" and varnish in the usual way. By using GerberMask, you can get some very fine detail, and you can accomplish this in far less time than it would take to hand letter it.
A cautionary note. I've only done this on North facing windows...I'd be very cautious about trying this in a south-facing window where the heat might wreak havock with the adhesive on the masking material when the time came to remove it. I don't think that any adhesive residue would be easy to clean from the open areas, and any solvent that you might try would probably contaminate the glass surface.
For those who may be disbelievers, try it out, you may find that you like it, and it may just make your task a bit easier.
------------------ Ken Henry Henry & Henry Signs London, Ontario Canada (519) 439-1881 e-mail kjmlhenry@home.
10,000 sperm swimming for that egg...and I won!
Posted by Jerry Mathel (Member # 526) on :
Ken,
When you have the sun shining on the window you are gilding, and you are worrying about the heat, try taping a piece of pink foam insulation on the outside of the glass. It will greatly reduce the glass temperature. This trick also works great in the wintertime when you want to keep the glass warm.
Jerry Mathel Jerry Mathel Signs Grants Pass, Oregon signs@grantspass.com
