Arrrhhhhhh,,, so the sign supply I use up here now only carries Gerber(3M) intermediate in 50 yards rolls only. It used to be in 10 yard rolls only, but now it's up to 50. Yeah, it's supposed to be better price wise, but I still don't like it. And I know that I will eventually use it all up, I just don't like having to spend such a big chunk of money at one time. But I always knew this would happen. Remember when you bought a full roll of vinyl, they would throw in a free squeegee? It would be in the center of the roll of vinyl. You watch, next thing will be a core and handling charge. 3M, ticker symbol MMM, current stock price is at $157.89 per share. I quess they are trying to get higher stock prices,,,,,,,,at the little guy's expense.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
seems vinyl is going up because its not being used as much as it was. FELLERS, you can by vinyl BY THE YARD..........so if you need 8 feet order 3 yards!!!! they also sell 10 YARD ROLLS........and also sell their SHINE RITE by the YARD!!! instead of buying a 50 yard roll.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
You're right, Alicia. But when you're 3M, you can do pretty much whatever you want. They've always been pretty much at the top of the heap, price-wise....but to give credit where it's due, their products have always done what they said they would do....and many times, better than those of the competition.
Sadly though, many of the suppliers of our products are cutting out the "perks" that they used to give us.....squeegees, free shipping, etc... I used to do a lot of business with a supplier that offered free shipping, if I bought over $100 worth of vinyl; but they cut that out. I am happy, that one of my main suppliers, Tubelite, still delivers to me on their truck, for only a $5 gas charge. They'll probably raise it one day; but I'm happy for now.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Even though we aren't' a production shop we think about things very differently. We like to buy everything in bulk - all the time. Ordering supplies, going to town and freight charges all add up quick. Plus we can negotiate a good deal when buying in volume. We generally carry three months to a year of stock on pretty much everything. Even screws, nails and welding tips are bought by the case. It makes my life simple.
- grampa dan
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
I wouldn't suggest intermediate. We use only high performance 3M/Gerber. It cost more but when my name goes out with the sign I want it to last.
50 yard roll (colors) - 190.50 50 yard roll (b/w) - 176.00
We can buy in one yard increments but it is more expensive.
We buy from Reece Supply in Texas.
The cost doesn't really bother me because I'm not paying for it - the customer is.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Alicia, what you're saying, that a company would increase profits to make their shares more attractive...well, it's just too rational. There was a day when stock prices where determined by the value of the company, by how they operated, but these days, the stock market is a big casino full of nervous hens. One of them could lay an egg, and start squawking, all the rest would think something's wrong and start yelling SELL! SELL! That's why it seems so bogus to be reporting daily in the news what the stock market is doing, as though that's any indication of the economy's health.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
James, I think we are a good indicator of the economy's health. I have just been pluggin' along. Not supper swamped, just kinda "Low Steady". But this time of year, that's about the norm for me. As far as buying 50 yards of vinyl,,,overall I do get a better price per yard. I quess I'll be pushing Sapphire Blue for a while. "Ah, here's a nice blue,,,,,,,,
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
FELLERS also has 3M.........but iam gona say i only use HP VINYL, if its a brand new vehicle!!!!! and the owener intends to keep it till the wheels fall off. i have been a big user of SHINE RITE/BRIGHT LINE(same vinyl different supplier) since it cam on the market.the only problems i ever had with ANY VINYL was AVERY HP)))) i do a lot of service vehicle and use intermediate......got some out there 5-7 years old......still looks good.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
Around this neck of the woods, and for a variety of reasons, businesses come and go. Seldom do many of them last for more than a couple of years....and the mindset of some of these folks is, I want it cheap.
I have no problem using intermediate vinyl on these types of jobs, because I can pretty much tell, after all these years, who's stayin' and who ain't.
To be honest, I have mis-calculated a couple of businesses. Two or three are still around. But, I've also found that many businesses have wanted to change or update their logo or colors after a few years, and this is a good opportunity to take care of them.
[ November 10, 2015, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Dale Feicke ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i agree 100% dale. same here. not that i havent used HP VINLY, but like i said earlier i wil put it on NEW VEHICLES and the owner is going to keep it till the wheels fall off. here is a perfect example. i did 2 of these truck in 2000-2001. this is 2015, the owner is still driving them with over 300k miles on them. and the vinyl still looks good except on the hood(engine heat) they are starting to crack. [IMG][/IMG]
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I use mostly high performance vinyl (3M) here. The 3M name means quality to most people so I advertise the fact. I only carry intermediate in black. You have to think about inventory sitting there doing nothing. At my shop, having to stock enough colors in both HP and intermediate would be cost prohibitive. I feel that I'm better off using HP vinyl on a job that might save me $3 by using intermediate, than stocking $600 worth of intermediate. When I need an odd color, I'll by it by the yard. Again, the slightly higher cost is offset by not having 75% of a roll of an odd ball color sitting there for 3 years.
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
Alicia,
Who do you get your supplies from? Sun supply sells by the yard. I believe they are in your area.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
That is Sun Supply that I was talking about. They are a bunch of real nice guys. There's another sign supply I also use, I won't tell you that there name is Denco, they just don't have the same personality. It seems that they take their job way too seriously.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
This has been discussed many times before, but...how much are you going to save on one job by using less than high performance? Everything else is going to be the same except for the cost of the vinyl. If you save $3 and you mark up materials by 50%, are you going to reduce the price of doing the van (or whatever) by $4.50?
I'm not going to make a judgement call on how long they are going to be in business...I'll just give them the best I can.
We are not selling letters by the pound, we are selling an image. My job is to make my client look as good as possible...now and ten years from now.
Posted by Joy Kjer (Member # 3026) on :
Is Grimco in your area? They sell high performance vinyl in 10 yard rolls. Their minimum for free shipping is pretty low.
Posted by Dan Beach (Member # 9850) on :
Putting quality arguments aside, I use HP vinyl because I find it easier to work with.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I use it, intermediate on low cost items such as the poorly corex sign. I also like to use it on this one's comapnies trucks. They are one company with that run their vehicles with four different company names. And around every four years they change the names on the vechiles as they put them in different catagories. The intermidiate comes off much, much ,much easier.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
So glad I have quit the sign trade. All of my art experience allowed me to phase into PAINTING SIGNS. which I enjoyed and made it to journeyman status quickly.I became a bulletin painter and loved the work. Sometimes getting high-time pay when doing walls above first level and higher. But, even though I still made art and my pin stripe fun, I was still missing "ART" I make no signs now and have a Art Gallery' which is in a small town. I am blessed to be at that point where I don't have issues with vinyl price. Sold ALL' sign equipment with the exception of brushes. There is nothing more pleasing than watching a stranger come by and decide they can't live without my art on their wall. I AM FREE.....!
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
quote: If you save $3 and you mark up materials by 50%, are you going to reduce the price of doing the van (or whatever) by $4.50?
I have given customers a choice in the past, just to see what they say. I have told them they can save 7 dollars (or 12, or 17, or whatever it worked out to be) if they wanted me to use intermediate vinyl on their job instead of high performance. I also told them it lasts about half as long. With a few exceptions, every customer opts for HP when they realize it costs so little extra.
The cost of vinyl is usually a fraction of the cost of a job. Although it may not be common, I think some shops are selling signs at such low prices that using lowest-cost materials is part of a desperate effort to shore up a profit margin.
I worked for one shop that tried to cut corners in every imaginable way. He never used high performance vinyl unless specifically requested. He had to do some truck jobs twice to keep repeat clients happy, but he felt that it was worth it for the money he saved in the long run. An unknown factor, of course, was the number of customers that never came back due to vinyl failures. One lady, in particular, was convinced that all vinyl is cheap junk. She said it 'fades in less than two years.' She has never known high performance red vinyl because he never offered it to her. So when we had to re-do her signs we used lettering enamels only, at her insistence.
It's one thing to use shorter life vinyl on banners or Coroplast. A substrate that has a an expected life of one or two years doesn't need 5–7 year lettering. But on vehicle jobs worth several hundred, or permanent signs worth thousands? I question the wisdom of giving people cheap materials exclusively without giving them a choice.
Brad in Kansas City
signbrad.com Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I don't stock any 3 mil calendared vinyl, except a roll of blue I use on coroplast.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i dont know how some of you do math. i buy 24" X 50 yd rolls of basic colors. BLK, W, R, G, B, Y INTERMEDIATE. now for the math part: 24X50 cost me $80. 24 X 50 HP 3M 7125 from the fellers book..$310.00!!! in my figurin' HP VINYL IS ALMOST 4 X the cost........of intermediate. SHINE RITE BRIGHT LINE has served me well.....ZERO REPLACEMENT in all these years. AVERY HP is the only vinyl i ever had a problem with))) i do use HP as i showed in the pic. this AVERY SPECTRA RED, SC900-460 and ig your doing red vinyl THIS IS THE BEST!!! i am glad i did use it in 2000-2001. YES i charged more for it, but getting 15-16 years of life was worth it. most coro/magnetic/used rough service vehicles get intermediate. none of them is gona last more the 5 years..............
[ November 12, 2015, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Okay Joe, I'll use your math. Now pay attention. Your $80 worth of intermediate vinyl is 26¢ a square foot. I took a previous job of truck lettering for 2 doors and it was a logo where the name had a second color outline so the majority of the copy was doubled. I needed 10 square feet of vinyl for everything, name (2 color) city, phone, DOT, and truck number. So that's $2.60 worth of intermediate vinyl on a $225 job. Switch that vinyl to HP and it's only $10.40 worth of vinyl, an increase for the job of only $7.80. You have $480 of duplicate colors to stock. That vinyl sitting there between jobs till it's used up is costing you money too. And like Brad said, for an extra $7.80, the customer will pick the HP 3M every time. The only time intermediate is a good deal is if you are running a lot of coro signs and banners where you can use up the intermediate very quickly. Besides, you are not losing anything. The customer is paying for the vinyl. There's the math. Hope you get it now.
[ November 12, 2015, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Dave Sherby ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
duh!!!! no schit.....I CAN HAVE basic colors of vinyl in stock(24 X 50) for $80 EACH......for those banners, yard signs "do it now jobs"....and iam not losing anything. the customer PAYS FOR THE INTERMEDIATE ALSO....but i don have $310 X 8=$2500.00 in hp vinyl)))))YES I DO HP I HAVE SAID SO........MORE THEN ONCE....... but iam not gona do as many jobs with HP, as i do with intermediate........when i do HP....the CUSTOMER PAYS FOR IT. i do some REFLECTIVE... the customer paid up front for the vinyl.......but in most cases the intermediate is as good and will last as long as the USED VEHICLES or the banner/yard sign will)))))
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Joe, I use the HP stuff because I want my customers' signs to last a reasonable amount of time without all the shrinking, peeling at the edges and showing a nasty adhesive line etc. I want something which is going to last like 5 to 7 years or more. I charge considerably more for that kind of job which is worth paying extra for cast, HP vinyl. However, when I do a few coroplast signs, which aren't going to last more than a year anyway, I put the cheap stuff on those and charge accordingly.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
sorry wayne......but you got miss-informed on the life of calendered vinyl. i got SHINE RITE/BRITE LINE vinyl on vehicles(they were used tree service trucks)for over 5-6 years and no PEELING, SHRINKING, OR REPLACEMENT))))the root a sewer(14 years the vinly still looks like day 1) is HP....he has a farm over in your neck of the woods..... one of the reason i use the intermediate on "rough service" vehicles.......INTERMEDIATE is more durable and wont rip and tear like HP does.can you imagine HP on a bucket truck???why??? 6 months of trees and limbs hittin it and it would need replaced. BOTH HAVE THERE PROPER USE..... giving the customer the best value for their money........is my job....and like i said intermediate has severed me well all these year AND NEVER A COME BACK!!!!! or disgruntled customer ..........
[ November 12, 2015, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I am so glad that I don't have to worry about this stuff any more.
Retirement is not for everyone...but it is working just fine for Shirl and I.
Of course, like intermediate vinyl, we are developing some wrinkles after 70 years of abuse. Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
And I'm not changing my vinyl-using habits.
It's false economy, to me, to use high performance vinyl on any sign or vehicle that I know....either the business won't last or the vehicle will be replaced in short order. I use high performance, when I feel the job warrants it; like on our city police cars. They've been on the job for around 8 years now, and still look good.
I've used Avery and Oracal intermediates for a long time, and have never had either one of them fail, in less than at least 5 or 6 years. In the meantime, no one knows what kind or variety of the material used was anyway....and that has no bearing on the design, quality, color or originality of the job.
And as a post-script...remember that many of the products we have used and revered over the years, have "took a crap" (MDO, several vinyls, magnetic materials, tempered Masonite, some composites, 1 Shot, etc..) in spite of our best efforts to deliver a quality product to our customer. It's not always "US" that's responsible, when a job fails, even though we may have to take responsibility, to keep a customer.
[ November 13, 2015, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Dale Feicke ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
thank you.......back in the day.....when "quality & design talent" was well respected.......YES... doing a job with HP, was part of the job. NOW..... the only thing most customers are concerned with is PRICE...... and PRINTERS have taken the PRICES to new lows....the customers only EXPECTATION is how cheap it can be done........and how quick.......why AND LIKE DALE SAID.......It's false economy, to me, to use high performance vinyl on any sign or vehicle that I know....either the business won't last or the vehicle will be replaced in short order. as for what vinly sale are happening TODAY....why waste your money on more expensive vinyl as the profits on signage have decreased so much its more advantagious to "farm out" the job to a big PRINT COMPANY rather then produce it in house.
Posted by John Byrd (Member # 825) on :
Orcal 651 here for a lot of years with zero failures.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I don't know why I argue with Joe. He's always right, a legend in his own mind. (((((((((((((
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
some of us are just "special."
Posted by Rob Lenz (Member # 2994) on :
Alicia, If you have an N. Glantz and Sons they have Gerber/3M. I have used it for years and it is an excellent product. However recently the price has gone up considerably so I am using Oracal. Oracal price is more competative and it is glossier than 3M. The point is they sell theirs by the yard.
Posted by Bill Wood (Member # 6543) on :
GRIMCO BRITE LINE...IT'S THE BEST FOR THE MONEY
I have seen this stuff on a truck for 10 years and still looks good.Why even worry about it cause they're gonna get rid of the truck anyway or out of business.
50 yd roll about 70 bucks...go figure
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
thank you bill)))))BRITE-LINE & SHINE RITE used to be the intermediate line of GMI VINYLS CV-300. at one time they advertised LATEX BASED adhesive. not sure if it still is. GMI used 3M 7125 as their HP.
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