There are so few posts and interactions compared to the past. Years ago, there would be multiple responses to posts and lots more members interacting. There would be lots of posts in the portfolio table section, now I see very few.
What can we do to get back the letterheads that used to be more involved?
How can we recruit new ones?
I would like to see a letterville revival. That sounds like a mission: "Letterville Revival"
[ June 06, 2015, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Wisdom ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
nobody is painting..........and NONE WANT TO LEARN HOW anymore..........so we are a dying breed sorta like "buggy whips"hehehehehehehehe. most of the shops that print now.......are cranking out mostly mundane run of the mill signage, and the public today.......are not interested in fantastically well designed and executed signage. i shake my head at some of the crap that is produced by people who have NO ARTISTIC ABILITY....and think of sign as nothing more the words in a sentence....like why do they put LOWER CASE letters on a banner??? really dumb....when it should say GRAND OPENING..... they do Grand Opening....... and the printers use the old adage, if you cant dazzle em with your brilliance ..just baffle em WITH A JUNKED UP.......BACKGROUND)))))
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
I totally agree. Even though I don't have the skill (yet) to hand letter I still create mostly dimensional hand made work. The local new start up shops here produce garbage and are not even aware of it. Any one can purchase a vinyl cutter and produce letters. It takes a sign artist and professional to make an attractive, effective and quality sign. You are right, people don't want to pay for quality, just fast and cheap.
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
OP there is alot of truth to those statments.
It seems the really skilled are better suited to work their own shop & as long as they deal with marketing themselves well the rest is just living good.
Really does not matter modern ways or old ways, marketing is huge key to success as well as skill to back it up at the right pace & ability to provide good service to customer & community.
Believe you deal with most to all that it takes the sign industry is still awesome & plenty want in.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I'm not doing nearly as many signs as I used to. Since buying the company last year and changing directions, I just don't have the time I used to have.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Facebook might be filling the space now also
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Yes, mostly Facebook. Things have changed.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
In a way, getting older has been a good thing for me. Since I'm actually beyond "retirement age", I really feel no pressing need to "HAVE TO" make X number of dollars a week; and am focusing on doing more custom and personally satisfying jobs, hand-lettering, and getting back to my pinstriping, for a small number of faithful local customers.
That's been one of the good things that technology, computers, and 'anybody can do a sign' logic of today has done for me. There are a couple of local "quickee" shops around; so I usually send the crappo stuff to them....giving me more time to do my thing, and get some home projects done for the wifee.
Facebook is totally unappealing to me. The kids and grandkids hounded me for a long time to join, so I did.......and regretted it immensely. It was interesting to see the "friends" that showed up; but there were also some "friends" that showed up that I really didn't care to see or hear from ever again. KnowwhatImean? And I didn't want to waste my time, reading about whose cat broke it's tail in the screen door, or how bad someone's toenail fungus was, or having "No-name Charlie" (someone I had no clue who it was) want to be my friend, or.... So I deactivated my account. Peace, in my Inbox, at last. It's much more personally satisfying to me, to have someone call and actually talk to them, or send an email.
I do try to post here regularly, or sometimes on a couple of other sites; but feel extremely blessed to be able to step back and really enjoy the work I love to do......and be able to take a day off, if the wifee wants to go to the mall, or if I just want to go sit on a lake-bank somewhere, with a fishing pole and a small cooler, and just be thankful to God, for giving me the talents he has given, the friends I've made along the way, and this crazy life I've had, shared and loved, along with youall here.
[ June 07, 2015, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Dale Feicke ]
Posted by Kevin Gaffney (Member # 4240) on :
This site has always been geared towards traditional sign work. digital stuff almost frowned upon by some. Like it or not, the traditional hand lettering is in diminishing demand, probably similar to blacksmiths, cobblers etc. Sad but true. Only logical there will be fewer posters. Perhaps promote a separate section for digital chat?
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Letterheads has always been the best of the best and I have always felt humbled to be part of it, be it a lesser role now and as a former windshield painter. I celebrate the wonderful friendships I have made here, but honestly, we are all growing older and less active and younger members are just not participating. It is a sad thing in many ways, but that is just how life works. All my dad's friends are gone. Many of mine have succumbed to some life removed from the past. Heck, I even quit lettering and own an art gallery and paint landscapes all the time. www.mccallfineart.com Steve brought us so much inspiration, bless his heart. One by one we are all passing the maul stick to those who think all caps old english script is ok. Do I miss hand lettering 2" helvetica from memory or using a pounce wheel? No way. We all merged off into our own lives and yes, I still miss all of you!
If nothing else it is a great place we all can complain about old age and crummy signs. I have truly enjoyed coming here every day and seeing and hearing about all of you. Some fabulous talent and we all know it is fading. Did we all enjoy the fellowship? You betcha!
[ June 07, 2015, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Preston McCall ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
It's Sad, But As I Get Older, I Think Differently
After a long day on the golf course, I stopped
in at Hooter's to see some friends and have
some hot Wings and ice tea.
After being there for a while, one of my friends
asked me which waitress I would like to be stuck
in an elevator with. I told them "The one who knows how to fix elevators". I'm old, I'm tired, and I pee a lot.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I just heard them girls say,,,,,Ohhhh,,,Ewwwwwwwoooowwwww. But back to the question, Yeah, I think it's the darn Facebook. But I'm still hear.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Need to get back to basics... but then again who wants Basics??? Maybe its better to fade away... sounds like a song...Miss the old Crowd.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I thought computers were the inevitable way the trade was going; so I learned quite a bit about them. I try to live debt free, so I never bought a printer, only cutters. But now I think it's all or none, at least in this region. You have to have rolls of vinyl in stock, and do enough of that work to be fast at it. It hasn't worked so well for me, so now I'm tired of all the layout, send to plotter, cut, weed, apply. I kept remembering what Si would say about all those steps, and now I've pretty much gone back to hand lettering only. That, and fill in the gaps with equipment painting. As far as this site goes, I wonder if it's more than just Facebook. That was just the next step as this one receded. For me, this sort of forum was new, because I was new to the internet. It was SO COOL to be able to have very in depth conversations at one's own convenience. The topic would go on for days, and I could go do a job, sleep for the night, whatever, and come back as though I had been away for 5 minutes. That was new and awesome for me, and I wonder if it was the same for others. Remember the discussions of labor + material vs advertising value we had? Remember the contributions by people like Cam Bortz? Those were the days, but maybe the novelty is wearing off.
Posted by Donald Miner (Member # 6472) on :
One thing is certain, if you look around, you will find the work of a true professional. They produce the billboard, showcard, hand lettered truck, and gold leaf firetruck, that you can actually read and know what you are reading. I can always tell a computer generated, over done design of an amateur. When I try to read the advertising message, I can't find it. Lost among the jungle of flora and fauna that passes for a background. I would love to have the time to photograph some of this so-called artistic signage. I know many an old time that would turn over in their grave, if they were to witness some of the pure garbage, that is passed off as advertising today. The tragic thing is the owners of such signage think they have the most gorgeous sign in the world. I need to stop now, before I spoil someone's day. May the sword brush and the lettering quill live forever!
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
I think Facebook is okay to connect with true friends, but I rarely go on there for any business connections. Linked in has helped me and so has Twitter in landing new clients and new projects. I am hoping Letterville will continue on.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Many are on Facebook, for sure. There are also other sites out there that the handletterers and craftsmen have moved onto.
There are plenty of young people out there picking up the old school ways and showing a passion for learning the trade. Look at the young faces in Mike Meyer's hand lettering workshops or Dan Sawatsky's workshops or Dave Smith's gold and glass workshops. It's absolutely making a comeback. Maybe they just don't want to learn from someone who follows the rule "never use lowercase on a banner" exclusively.
Posted by Tom Rose (Member # 606) on :
Hi Si Allen....
While you're hanging with the one that can fix elevators, I'll hang out with the other one, in case something pops up !
Tom Rose, always willing to help.
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
The old Letterhead meets have died down from what they used to be. I t was nice to look forward to the annual international meet, that was the best. There were many individual meets held all over, but that became quite expensive to pull off. Now the big thrill for me is the Walldog meets, I try to attend one every year. Here is where you can meet up with all the friends you have made through the years. We still have gold leaf meets, and it is always attended by many. We are hanging in there.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Can't blame facebook totally. Signs101 has a lot more life. There is a resurgence in painted signs, but why does it have to be just paint?
If Signcraft was all about paint, then we wouldn't have that magazine anymore. But Signcraft has evolved like the industry itself.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
"All of the above..."
People get older & a bit lazier (aka 'more efficient') and perhaps more choosey with their spare time, if they have any...
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Times change, Facebook works for me, one stop and I hit a number of groups. I never really got into the tech side of signs. Times change. It used to be I when the new SignCraft came I would spend days checking every thing out, now I flip though it in ten minutes, everything looks the same, no character at all, no individuality, the same fonts everywhere.........boring from where I sit. I could give a rats ass about the latest router. There are tons of discussions about brushes on Facebook. Watching Glenn work his magic on a Facebook video is fascinating. I'm sure there are plenty of groups for the wrap people on there too.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
I had never heard of Letterheads until I found this site. I was taught "old school" in a traditional sign shop of whom my mentors were only willing to teach technique slowly as they felt the person deserved it. It was a sin to let their "secrets" out of the bag. I learned precision there, but I learned the "pazaaaz" here. Signs were an art form here, full of color and life, wild fonts and very clever layouts.
The world is different now, and it moves too fast for the old ways, and most of us are too tired to run with the changes. I see young designers with very clever ideas and layouts for the printed media. And they have access to the expensive graphic tablets to create on.
The job of an electrician, plumber or welder has changed very little. In my early years I thought my craft would endure like those; I didn't see these changes coming to our craft.
Complicating this was businesses just not willing to spend money on a quality sign. Electricians and Plumbers and Welders seemed to get paid well and didn't seem suffer near as bad by shoddy, cut throat competition. (those guys couldn't pass a test to get a license) but anybody could make a sign.
My advice: Get a fast high quality road bike and ride it daily. Get a Ninja Juicer and juice all those veggies and fruits you would never eat, and drink that daily. Let the world pass by chasing the money, like we did. They will lose it too as their world will change also, in time. Go on S.S. and get a job parking cars or sweeping the floor in some big box store. Be kind to everyone.
I know none of the above has anything to do with making signs, but neither do we anymore, that's the point. We are a dying breed. Happiness isn't based on what we do, its based on how we treat others and the ways in which we help them.
Happiness is the #1 priority.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
or set up a pottery shop)))))) or rebuild a bathroom!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHA [IMG][/IMG]
[ June 11, 2015, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Everyone decides when they want to get off the ride. I know some that are pushing forward painting signs, I'm trying to build a solid business that can and will be sold when I decide to get off the ride. And I'm currently envisioning the perfect person to continue on in the next 15 or so years. Don't get me wrong I still LOVE the old ways and use them when I can. But I can't imagine old sign painters painting just because they loved to paint. those were the tools they had. A lot of sign painters used to paint houses too, how many houses are there to paint anymore? Why aren't sign shops doing vinyl siding? I'm sure when airbrushes came on the scene, those who embraced it were "hacks" to those who blended beautifully with a brush. Given the tools of today you can't tell me most wouldn't have jumped at the chance to embrace them.
[ June 11, 2015, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I'm thinking that all this whining about technology replacing hand lettering skills is the fault of the sign painting trade itself. More than once I've heard about sign painters that wouldn't let another sign painter anywhere near is work area. They all kept everything a secret. As skilled hand letterers became more and more scarce, the Letterhead movement was born, and probably about 3 decades too late. Why did they become scarce? Old school? Only taught the technique if they felt the person deserved it? Wanted to limit competition?
Why didn't the sign painting trade demand licensing of the craft? You talk about electricians, carpenters, plumbers..... all licensed. Technology was bound to create an easy way for people that couldn't execute or didn't want to learn hand lettering. But you don't need to know how to hand letter to create good design. Not all hand letters were masters of design either. So this technology puts equipment into the hands of anyone that thinks sign making is an easy way to get rich. Yep, upsetting to those with skills. I wonder how long ago that traditional sign painters bitched about their peers that started using that "factory made paint in a can" instead of making their own? Damn technology.
I think Rochon is right. Progressive tradesmen use the tools available to them. Even log home builders don't build anymore using all hand tools. Yes there is a ton of pride at painting a precision letter with a quill. But my customers would come back complaining about a sign that only lasted 3 years painted with that poor excuse of a paint called One Shot.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Lots of good points Dave.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I became a hapless loser and got a real job... LOL!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Bruce there is no shame in that either. Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I've stood next to Bruce while he was lettering. A true master of the craft. Too bad they made your paint something to disdain. BTW Bruce, I still have that panel with your alphabet you painted for me. Thanks again.
Posted by Curt Stenz (Member # 82) on :
I can agree with George as well as some of the other comments. I have no employees, I have a home based business and relatively low overhead compared to my local friends/competitors.
I do cut vinyl when necessary, which for some clients is quite often. At this stage in my career I am not going to even consider printing/laminating etc. in house.
I am now working on a photo wrap on two large garage doors. I always charge for the design time separate from the actual 'job'. I was handed two cd's full of hi res photos and the client realizes that there is time involved here before any thing gets printed.
Many times I can complete a job quicker and for a lot less out-of-pocket $ with paint. If the job warrants vinyl or prints and the job would be an easy install, I can cut vinyl or purchase printing wholesale and still make a decent profit. If someone asks if I do the printing, I just say a friend in Detroit does it for me.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I'm still designing digital prints, cutting vinyl, and making dimensional signs but sold all the sandblasting equipment over a year ago. I just use the router now. And I'm still working on my CNC foam cutter design. Maybe I'll have it making monument signs in a month or so.
[ June 12, 2015, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I make more money than I ever did running my shop... I have health insurance, short and long disability, 401K w/ employer match, and life insurance.
I sit in an air conditioned office.. wear my Sony noise cancelling headphones whilst jamming on my hand picked tunes list (no streaming audio is allowed)...
I feel no shame taking care of myself. {D>
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
I hear ya bruce- A few months back I took a graphic designer job at a large collegiate screen printing company… they have access to tools and equipment I could only dream of in my small screen setup. A few months ago I was promoted to art director and have 3 other "really young" artists under me. Part of the process is helping teach them skills that they did not learn from a book or in a classroom. We also have a large format digital printer/cutter, so I have been teaching the others design fundamentals of sign making. I still have my own shop and have done a few projects, but I am glad I made the move. I know this site's attendance and participation has declined over the years- I don't think it is one single thing, it is just a result of a lot of smaller things over time- even losing some great artist/craftsmen over the years.
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
OP, that picture makes it hard to tell if that's your pottery or what you're using until the bathroom's done.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
no dennis....as usual you cant tell a cup from a schit pot......hahahahahahahahaha this is a schit pot)))) YES THEY ARE BOTH CLAY... and fired in a kiln))))) but now you know thew differance))))) [IMG][/IMG]
[ June 14, 2015, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
For now Rusty decides to make a wise decision and keep his opinion to himself about Joe's pottery and his bathroom...but Dennis...that was a good one.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
SOMEBODY.......needs ta slap ya ..."bald headed"......OH seems they already did))))))))
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Go to you tube, search the Sign Painter movie trailer, watch the first two minutes with Keith Knecht.
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
It was what it was and is what it is. With the occasional exception, this site hasn't been about "Letterheads topics" in a very long time.
It's no secret that years ago, it transitioned into a vinyl and then digital printing site.
Between talking about sticking vinyl or watching paint dry, a lot of Letterheads will choose watching the paint dry. Hands down!
Nothing against vinyl work. But it sure isn't the same thing. Not even close.
Posted by Rodger MacMunn (Member # 4316) on :
Dave Sherby hit it "right on" on the other thread. I never did post much here, but every time a "skirmish" broke out, I distanced myself further ....... Remember the flogging Kevin Betz took because he wasn't posting enough stuff about his upcoming meet? And the tar & feathering of Mark Tucker , Barry Branscomb & a bunch of others I've long since forgotten. The prejudice against those who weren't self employed comes to mind ... Then there was the Todd vs. Joe battle not so long ago ....... I really felt sorry for Steve & Barb through all this bad behaviour. This has way more to do with it than competition from other forums & Facebook. It's just nothing more than contagious disrespect & scores of us eased on out of here before we caught it too.
Posted by Kevin Gaffney (Member # 4240) on :
The vinyl v paint stuff is nearly as bad as the Mac v PC debates
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
sorry to inform you roger....the JOE-TODD stuff.....was all in fun.........HUMOR.....some sign painter are also FUNNY))))) got the same thing going on with SHERBERT, GRUNDY, and my favorite bald guy.....from tenn.what ta hell is his name))))))))))hahahahahahahaahahahaha
[ June 17, 2015, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
Joe...you can call me Mr. Bradley.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
You know what causes contention? Pride.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Roger, Kevin, Rusty, Wayne, OP, ..... Correct
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
yaaasir miser bradley))))hahahahahahaha
Posted by Rodger MacMunn (Member # 4316) on :
Joe, if it was all in fun, why did Steve feel the need to give you guys the boot for a while? I recognize that a lot of this is in fun, That one didn't appear to be .......
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
{D>
[/IMG]![[Wink]](wink.gif)
