This one has me baffled. I have a large neon clock with a similar base to the sign shown below but it's missing the glass advertising piece. I'd like to make a reproduction glass for it making it look aged similar to this one.
I can't wrap my head around how this was made taking into consideration how the sign has aged. I would think the black went down first, then the white and then the red. If that was the case, how would the black and white have faded/disappeared to expose the red?? It doesn't make sense to me. Someone on Facebook just asked if perhaps it was two pieces- the sign with a piece of glass in front but it still doesn't really explain the aging.
Any thoughts?
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
Is the sign (face) made in 3 pieces, as it looks like it is? Are the two end pieces metal, with a center piece of glass (or plexiglas)? Is it painted on the outside or inside of the face?
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Hi Dale, it's a glass panel insert that appeared to be painted on the back of the glass. It definitely wasn't painted on the outside of the glass. I took the pic last year and the sign has since been sold so I can't go back for a closer look. Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
lets work backwards........... 1.lay tape for the thin red lines. 2.paint the white letter from the back. 3.spray the black over the painted letters. 4.remove the thin tape in the white letters... 5. paint red......... the aging of the paint with the red being a high pigment paint....and UV exposure is why its odd looking....you would have to know where it was sitting in relation to the sun all the years it was used.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
It's an internally lit sign, the order of production should have been apply mask, cut letters and inline, pull background area of mask, spray black, pull inline, spray red, pull letters, spray white. That's not the order this was done in and I would bet that when lit, those letters weren't white but either red or pink. The aging is due to the fact that they used translucent paint to allow light to show through and the red was applied really heavy in contrast to the black and white. The fact that the order of application was incorrect might explain the incorrect application. Backlit signs can be a real pain.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I can't agree Joe. If the black were sprayed over the white letters, they wouldn't light up, when the sign was lit.
I'm wondering if the red isn't painted on the inside of the glass (or red glass). Then the black and white painting done on the outside. This might allow a sign company also to make a bunch of blank signs, and then put lettering on the outside, custom done for a certain customer.?
That might explain why only the black and white are damaged....they would be more directly affected by sunlight. Look under the word "DOGS"; it looks like cracks in the black
[ November 08, 2014, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Dale Feicke ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
you right......wasnt thinking...BACK LITE...... THEN..... i woulda taped the red lines with tape, painted the white letters.......put the black on, by filling in the whole background with black, cutting around the white....then removing the tape and adding the red........
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
And " Old Vinyl " what tape would have been used on that sign which appears to be at least 20 years old?
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Mask off letters and black would have been stipples to allow even transparency. red inline brushed, and the whole thing backed with white lead and oil and again stippled.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
20 years ago........they had 3M had FINE LINE GREEN TAPE)))))))
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I'm guessing the black and white are on the reverse of the glass and the glass is backed with a red panel. I think that is the only way that the places that have cracked would appear red, if the red paint was behind the black it would have remained on the back of the cracked paint and left a void of plain glass. But I agree that the white would appear pink.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
That sign was done before them newfangled computers came around.
The back would have been sprayed with GripFlex masking paint, and when dried, hand cut and weeded leaving the letters.
Next, the black would have been sprayed, then the inlines cut and weeded.
The red would be sprayed.
The letters would then be weeded out and then sprayed with white GripFlex translucent paint.
[ November 09, 2014, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Bill Davidson (Member # 531) on :
Si, you've got it right. I learned back sprayed plexi sign painting from an old timer who worked for AdArt for yearrrrrrrrs.
When you spray GripFlex paints they are as thin as water. Your mask needs to be lacquer proof.
Is best to stand the glass in front of flouro tubes so you can see the thinness of the aplications. The widest pattern your gun will make, and plenty of air. Let each coat dry thouroughly, then wipe with a damp chamee(?). Then another light coat until you have the desired translucency or density. Spray light coates, similar to painting candy colors. Just fogged on each coat. This prevents bands of color.
*For the red, you want the density pretty darned red or it will be pink when lit with the white over it. *For the white, just dense enough you cannot see the lamps behind the glass as hot spots.
Do this and you'll be right mate!
[ November 10, 2014, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Bill Davidson ]
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I still go with what I said above. I've never seen a back-sprayed lighted sign face lose its lettering like that.....and I've done a bunch of them.
This sign is old; but it's one of many, made like that, that were around for quite a few years. I just have a hard time believing the cracks in the black, under the word "DOGS" could have happened, without the cracks going thru ALL the colors.....unless it was painted on the outside.
Also, if the sign was done as Si said, and the white sprayed last, when the white disappeared from the lettering, there would be clear plex showing and not red.
I'd also add that some of these types of signs had regular incandescent bulbs, instead of fluorescent; and that would create much more heat, which may also contribute to the deterioration of the paint....maybe.
[ November 10, 2014, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Dale Feicke ]
Posted by Shirley Carron (Member # 2446) on :
Terry, As always I might be off here but, could that be printed on clear (the red & black) using an aged effect, you know- they have all those effects you can do now in Photoshop...applied to the inside of the glass and backed up with translucent white vinyl. "Design Panopoly" is one place that keeps sending me these 'effects' features you can buy. $99.00 gives you access to their whole library and you might be able to use it for your photography. Posted by Shirley Carron (Member # 2446) on :
I'm gonna side with Dale, the black is on the outside.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
Thanks Shirley. I know I could reproduce the general look of it but the original process still baffles me.
Dale, I do know for sure that the sign wasn't painted on the face of the glass. This was absolutely either behind glass or right on the back of the glass.
Lots of great comments and history on how these "should" have been done but none, so far, explain why this one has aged the way it has.
Thanks for all the replies!
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
Go back to before tape and computers, and when it was done by hand. First the red in line would go on, then the black (solid covering lamp black japan). When dry the whole background was painted with white lead and stippled with cheese cloth and cotton to eliminate all brush marks. Many window signs were done this way.
Posted by Donald Miner (Member # 6472) on :
I have to go with Bill Riedel on this one. That is how it was done in the early 60's, when I first got started in this wild, wonderful world of signs. I used to work with a fellow who did several of these, my job was to do the stipple work. Peace, Don
Posted by Bill Davidson (Member # 531) on :
What color is it when it's lit? Red?
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
That's what I'm still wondering, Bill. The way it appears, the red is behind even where the lettering is faded out,leaving me to believe that, like you said, red would dominate. Even the white lettering would probably appear pink.
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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