I gave my customer a quote on a quantity of 55 Gemini letters 6" letter height, stud mount. Minnesota Architectural style. They gave me the go ahead and I realized I forgot to add $ for the mounting pattern, about $230 (4.25 per letter). So I can either - Tell them I forgot, and ask for $230 or Make my own pattern or Install without a pattern.
Its not too late to have Gemini make the pattern, but I'm wondering if I can make it myself by setting the letters on pattern paper and marking the holes. It sounds easy enough but with the letters 2" off the paper on studs it may be harder than it sounds. Or installing without a pattern just starting at the center. I'm thinking I want the pattern. I guess I either eat $230 or ? I hate to go back to them and ask for more $.
What would you do?
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I'd eat the charge. In our book a quote is a quote and we don't change our prices once accepted. Education and learning aren't cheap, nor is it our customer's problem. I would make up my own pattern.
-grampa dan
Posted by Chuck Churchill (Member # 68) on :
Make your own pattern. Print an outline of the letters spaced the way you want with your printer or cutter. Get about a dozen pins or star head screws just a little longer than the depth of the letter. Screw them in the letters then dip the heads in carpenters chalk. Place it on the pattern and tap the face of the letter transferring chalk to the pattern. Repeat with other letters.
Go back and mark where the chalk dropped with a pencil or sharpie. I could make a 55 letter pattern in less than an hour. Hardest part is twisting all the screws in and out of the pads . Depending on your printer speed and length of the pattern it may take a while to print the letter outline.
Making your own will save you the $230 and you will have a great understanding of the layout before you get to the wall.
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
Draw a pattern using the same or similar font. Put short sharp studs in letters. Punch through pattern on styrofoam or cardboard. Save your money.
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
Thanks to all of you. I have never been really impressed with Gemini's patterns anyway. I hadn't thought of the method you mentioned. I just need to see what font is close. I seem to remember a few years back Gemini offered fonts that match their letters so we could do accurate drawings. I don't think they offer those any more. I'll find out tomorrow. If not, I'll just space them out on paper like described.
Thanks.
[ April 29, 2014, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Chuck Peterson ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
You can download the exact font from Gemini's site/
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
We always make our own patterns, either by printing out on the plotter or just laying the letters on a roll of paper and drawing around the letter. My idea of correct kerning and Gemini's is not always the same.
Be sure to number the letters with a grease pencil or Stabilo because every "e" may not have the same stud pattern.
P.S. To add - I would never try to collect from a client for my mistake, and I've made some doozies (Texas term).
[ April 30, 2014, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on :
I keep about 20 studs that have been cut to 1" long and sharpened to a point for making patterns.
Draw it with the plotter, insert short studs in letter, line it up, push down slightly, then circle the holes to make them easier to find when drilling.
Number each letter on the back with a sharpie, because the stud mounts are not always in the same place.
Just remember, if you need to adjust the length of the pattern, do it with spacing NOT by squeezing or stretching the letters to fit. The real letters do not squeeze or stretch well.
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
Thanks for the pattern making tips, and Dan and Raymond, thanks for the reminders about integrity. I don't think I have ever tried to collect more from a customer after a contract is signed but have been tempted when I make mistakes. I need to remember to treat them as I would want to be treated.
Now I need to see if I can download that Architectural font. I don't see that option on their website. I'll call.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
It's in the "sign pro" section of their site. I do mine just like Don described.
Posted by Jean Shimp (Member # 198) on :
Wayne, I believe you get 40% off that cost so your actual cost would be $138.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
Or you can put the studs in the letters; put a sheet of layout paper on top of a sheet of cardboard. Then lay the letters on the layout paper the way they will be installed and push down on them.
They will make an impression on the layout paper by pushing into the cardboard. Easy from there.
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Sometimes the studs are actually a little "higher" than the letters in which case you can hit the stud with a paint marker and push down on your pattern to leave the mark. Or we use the short sharp studs.
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Chuck, With 6 inch letters, I would only do 2 or 3 holes in the letters.
Gemini will put 5 studs in a 6" "H" - Crazy
I always put a "hurricane bead" on all of my Gemini Letters.
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
Mike, what's a hurricane bead? I'm from California.
[ April 30, 2014, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Chuck Peterson ]
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
It's a bead of clear silicone at the top of each letter (and inside the top of "G"'s and "O"'s).
You can't see it from the ground.
We get some nasty east coast storms.
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
Here is another tip. get a restaurant style condiment bottle with a pointed nozzle cap. put some powdered charcoal in the bottle. Very carefully squeeze some of the charcoal dust into the holes where you would screw the studs into the back of the letters. turn letters upside down allowing most of the dust to fall away on the ground. Then gently place the letters on the pattern. Now tap the letters over ech stud hole. Some of the dust will fall on to the pattern. circle the dab of dust with a pencil. I have read about sharpened studs I know that would work but I have no time to make them or screw them in and out on so many letters.
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
I like that, Bob. I'll try that first.
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
Just remember that the smaller the letters the more accurate your hole markings must be. Glad to have been of some assistance, Chuck.
Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
Because stud placing usually isn't consistent Gemini may not be able to make an accurate pattern for you after the fact.
Do what I did when I neglected to order a mounting pattern... scan the backs of all the letters individually and set them up in a vector art program and print your own pattern. You will have to flop the letters once you import them. If necessary draw little circles where necessary in a vector program and plot a pattern.
Simple and accurate.... no guess work and you can easily check your spacing on the monitor for overall look before printing or plotting.
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
I have made many hundreds of letters cut out of acrylic over the years—cut by hand with a sabre saw—without the luxury of a computer generated drilling pattern. I usually marked around the ends of the 3-inch studs on a piece of pattern paper. Using a set of short, pointed studs and punching through paper is more accurate, but often I didn't take the time to change the studs to do this.
On occasion I made drill patterns in the field, usually on the sidewalk. And once in a great while, we cut out the letters, glued the studs on the backs and made the pattern at the job site. When the job site was a day's drive from the shop, a survey trip was not always practical.
Gemini patterns are nice, but I have found that they have not always been made well. Sometimes the spacing has been so bad as to be un-usable.
The method for marking patterns described by Bob Sauls works, too. I have used it many times, especially on cast letters. I used a rubber mallet to tap the letter on its face at each stud hole location. The hammer blow accurately sends a dot of charcoal powder onto the pattern paper. Instead of using powdered charcoal, though, (we didn't think of it) we just scraped the end of a charcoal stick at the opening of the threaded hole till enough charcoal crumbs went in. It sounds time consuming, but it's not really.
Brad in Kansas City
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
I like to use two combination stud and pad mounts per letter and pad mounts on the rest.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
If I'm making the letters, I'll try to put the stud somewhere above the center of mass of the letter so that it will naturally hang straight. Some letters require two studs. The rest will be glue pads. It's easier to install the letters plumb if I have fewer holes to deal with. Drill bits invariably wander when hitting harder things in the wall, which throws the holes off and can force the letter crooked, unless the holes are oversize and get wallowed out to properly align the letters.
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
David drilling slightly over sized stud holes work very well for me because of the inability to drill in at a perfect 90. There always seems to be enough friction on the studs sliding in to hold them in place. Larger holes through a substrate that will be held up by architectural stand offs is also recommended here. The extra wiggle room helps a lot with alignment.
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
For hdu letters screw 3" deck screws in the back, cut off heads with bolt cutters, push through pattern on styrofoam. Haul to job with letters in 2" styrofoam. Keeps them in correct order and easy to carry large number of letters without banging them up.
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
Dennis I mount many small but weighty signs using your decking screw method as well.
