I just checked out a fire truck I am to do for the local fire department, & they want me to replace the old leaf with vinyl, & Signgold. (they will not be swayed to do the real thing, been trying for years) Anyway, I am going to try to post a picture of what they want removed. It appears to be real gold leaf with an outline of black vinyl. Any suggestions? The worst part is the 1/2" stripe that needs replaced. When they repainted the truck a while back, they masked off this stripe & painted right up to the edge! UGGHH! There is a small trim strip painted in cream around the back wheels they want removed also, I am supposing oven cleaner will take this off, or is there something more gentle?
This makes me heart sick to have to remove this, 2 really nice old scrolls on the front corners, you can still see the fine highlights faded, but still there.
Thank you.
[ February 03, 2014, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Bobbie Rochow ]
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Ah Bobbie, that's gonna be a bad one. Being that's it's not a factory paint job, if you use EZ-Off oven cleaner, it will darker the paint where it comes in contact with. You could try sanding it off. Yes, I said sanding. You start off with 600 grit wet/dry. Then you pick up the 800, sand down a bit more, finsh with 1000 or 1500 grit. Then you bring out a buffer, you start with the red rubbing compund. Then you use the white polishing compound. Then,,, you use 3M Perfect-It polishing compound. When you first start sanding, just sand off the painted areas lightly (WET)as if you were using a Exfoliating puff on your face. Once you're gotten 87 1/2 percent of the lettering off, then you can concentrate on the edges around the letters from the re-paint. And you're gonna have to tell them it's not going to look perfect. The finished job will show a cloud image of the old lettering and that there might be some scratches and dull spots. But,,,you're new lettering will hide most of it. Hopefully the new lettering will be going onto the same area with maybe a combination of slightly bolder letters and a slightly bolder outline. You could even add a second 1/8in. outline all around. And then of course, you might be able to have the new lettering set onto a ornate panel surrounded by scrolls, like that David Bulter style.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Whatever you do, make sure you explain the difficulties to your client in writing and have them sign a release stating they have been warned and that you are not responsible.
As to the oven cleaner, it is the method I used the most. However, I use Mr. Muscle. I seem to have fewer issues with it than I did with EZ Off. But that's just me.
After removing the vinyl and cleaning off any adhesive residue, I spray the surface of the lettering with Mr. Muscle and then cover with Saran Wrap (plastic wrap of any sort). This lets the cleaner spend more time cleaning and less time evaporating. After about 30 seconds, I pull back a portion off the Saran Wrap and push the lettering off with a plastic squeegee. I've rarely had the repeat the process more than once. Neutralize with plenty of water. Then I'll buff with 3M Perfect-it. You should be ready to go after that.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Bobbie ... since it is black vinyl and real leaf ... duct tape squeegeed down will take off the leaf an most of the vinyl.
Rapid Remover for the rest of the vinyl.
When all the gunk is off, buff with polishing compound ... should look like new!
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Oh my!!! Tons of work! Thank you, all of you. I better start shopping for some supplies.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Hmmmm.....what takes the leaf sizing off? It will come off with the cleaner, if I use the cleaner, or the duct tape if I use it? Oh boy Alicia, I might end up buying all the sanding supplies you mentioned. you are right if I try the oven cleaner it might ruin it. Maybe if I try a test spot?
[ February 03, 2014, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Bobbie Rochow ]
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
It's the sizng that comes off the easiest. To not make a big mess using the EZ-Off oven cleaner, I brush it on with a cheap nylon hair brush. Something like 1 in wide should do fine. I spray in into a cup and brush it on. Ya still gotta waer gloves and maybe a respriator. The vapors are really bad. If it eats paint can you imagine what it can do inside your lungs. Bobbie, if you didn't live so far'Id come out and coach you. Plus ,then you could blame me if something really bad happened.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Thank you for the advice Alicia, I wish you could be there to coach me too!
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
I do somewhat the same as Alicia, only I use tin handled acid brushes that you can find in the plumbing section of the hardware store. Buy a bunch of them.
Mask as tightly under the lettering as possible to prevent the oven cleaner from running down the surface or onto anything below it. If using Easy-Off, make sure it's the yellow can NOT the blue can.
Spray it into the cup and brush it on fairly heavy and brush tightly over the shape of the letters. Let it sit for about five minutes (don't let it dry out). Then push the brush straight into the surface, fanning the bristles out and scrub in a circular motion. The fanning of the bristles will prevent the tin handle from scratching the paint.
Wipe the surface clean with a paper towel, followed by a wet (water) paper towel and dry. Repeat as necessary until it is all gone.
DO NOT let the oven cleaner get on any bare metal such as aluminum tanks, battery boxes, etc..
It also needs to be warm to work, doing it in the cold is a waste of time and materials.
Unless it's clear, red is about the worst color to have to work with, it seems to stain easier than other colors.
Explain the dangers of damaging the base paint to the customer and let them know there is no way to guarantee there will be no damage to the base paint.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
And then there is the EZ button solution. Tell the Fire Department to get the doors repainted.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Donald that was awesome help-THANK YOU!!! What kind of mask? Masking tape, or transfer tape? Alicia, I like your sense of humor, yeah, the EZ button!
[ February 04, 2014, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Bobbie Rochow ]
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
I usually use plastic sheet mask. A garbage can liner cut open to make a flat sheet works great. Regular masking tape should hold it in place with no problem.
BTW, it's David, not Donald
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Just to be on the safe side, I think you should have the customer ( Fire Station ) have the doors cleaned and re-painted by a body shop......BEFORE you do any work on those doors.
It's a big responsibility for you and, very easily, something could go wrong and turn this project into a costly experience for you and.....probably, what you are charging for your work may end up not covering the risk and the amount of work involved. Thus, minimizing your profit.....
Should you decide to accept this challenge, then, like Glenn and David said, make sure that you explain, to the customer, the risk of possible damage to the base paint of the doors and let them know there is no way to guarantee there will be no damage to the base paint.......IN WRITING.... AND SIGNED BY BOTH PARTIES....YOU AND THE CHIEF OF THE FIRE STATION.
Good luck !
RD
[ February 05, 2014, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Yes...it's a horrible dicey job even for someone who does know what they're doing...
Posted by Len Mort (Member # 7030) on :
Bobbie, I tell them I put it on, it's their responsibilty to remove it, bring it back and i'll reletter it. Problem solved.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
If you try to do the removal, it might pay to ask them or explore if the areas have been repainted before. If it is old factory paint, then you can perhaps try some hotter solvents like lacquer thinner. If it is synthol enamel, it will wrinkle it and be ruined. If it is thoroughly baked factory acrylic enamel, you might be able to rub off any of the leaf/lettering with lac thin. Acetone is too hot.
I had some truck door year ago that had been lettered on top of factory acrylic factory enamel and lac thin really did quickly remove the one shot lettering fast. just have to check and perhaps experiment a bit.
The best advice would really have them refinished by a pro body shop, first. Surely, they have thought of this and making you chance ruining the finish just to save a few bucks is foolish. If you try it, just be careful about the liability issue.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
"Yes...it's a horrible dicey job even for someone who does know what they're doing.."
This looks like it might have been computer generated. Make a tracing of the lettering with registration s to the truck door and do the scroll also. Match the font and cut your vinyl. Hand cut the scroll if necessary. Use the method si mentioned with duct tape to remove everything but the size. Use mild thinners like mineral spirits or denatured alcohol on the size. If it come off great. If it doesn't budge, leave it and put the vinyl directly on top of the where the old lettering was.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
I'm still having difficulty thinking that someone could lay gold leaf on a door and then outline it with vinyl??? That offends my sensibilities and dishonors those that taught me.
Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on :
The Black looks like paint to me, and I have always had good luck with the EZ-Off.
It has been a long time since I needed it so I can't find my fancy lawyer paper right now, but it said something to the effect that... I will attempt to remove the existing lettering in an effort to save the customer the expense of repainting, however if something does go wrong, the customer will be responsible for repaint before I reletter.
Have the customer sign off on it, and 9 times out of 10 you will not have a problem. My luck is... if I DO NOT have them sign... that will be the one that goes bad.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
First, David I am sorry! I scanned your name & thought you were my friend Donald!!! Thank you again for your help.
George your advice with Si's sounds the most doable.
Rick you are right, leaf with vinyl is not right, it is a shame.
They also want ALL the striping removed & redone the whole way around the truck, that is around 682" worth of hell. The worst part, it has already been repainted around the stripes at one time & when it was, they masked over the stripes & painted it, now there is a build up of paint around the stripes they want stripped & relaid.
I think maybe if they call me back I might decline the stripping. Len that sounds good!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Bobbie,
There are a lot of great replies here, but I would have to agree with Lenny. I have a detailer and a body shop I work with that I usually refer customers to. It's nice to be able to "do it all" but this could go ugly fast for you.
Especially becuase it has been "repainted"
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
bobby..........WHEN DID YOU BECOME A BODY & FENDER PAINT AND REPAIR SHOP??????? #1. you honestly believe........these people HAVENT checked with a body shop as to repainting the doors and removing the stripes????????? #2.preston said it best...."The best advice would really have them refinished by a pro body shop, first. Surely, they have thought of this and making you chance ruining the finish just to save a few bucks is foolish." #3.they are looking for the "cheap" way out.......and its only going to "cost you." #4. IF THIS YOUR 1st attempt at removal of paint/vinyl.........PASS ON IT....again.....these people will EXPECT AND DEMAND from you more then they ARE GOING TO PAY YOU!!!!!!
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Bobby, that looks like paint to me.
I would proceed almost exactly like Alicia said at the top of the post as this is how I saw body shops do it when we ran into problems with E-Z Off. They always used block sanding to hit the high areas with wet dry sandpaper dipped in a bucket with soapy water... moving from coarser to finer and then buffing coarser to finer. I was surprised at how cheap it was to just have them do it rather than us getting those really good buffers and such.
If you use E-Z Off make sure it's the yellow can that contains lye as lye is what takes it off.
However if any automotive hardeners were used good old E-Z might not budge them.
I have people call us all the time trying to remove my striping with E-Z Off and it won't budge. That's because I use urethanes which are impervious to lye. They'll take it to body shops and they bitch about removing it and it gives you a reputation of putting paint on that lasts and lasts. That's a testimonial for using urethanes.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
What Old paint said...bull's eye.
Posted by Terry Whynott (Member # 1622) on :
quote: When they repainted the truck a while back, they masked off this stripe & painted right up to the edge!
Are you sure the lettering wasn't taped off and painted around as well? Some of the letters in your pic seem to show an overlap of clear (bottom edge of the T and lower round part of the R)
Personally, I wouldn't touch this job. Not worth the risk!
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Gee, all this mess about removing to re-doing. If the new job to going to resmble the old job, it still might be more costs effective to re-do with real leaf. Especially since they already ruined the paint job by clearing around the stripes and lettering. ( Now isn't that stupid. Ya got the whole truck masked off and you still waste time by masking around the stripes) And Bobbie, don't let them push you around, stand up tall. Be as tough as a truck stop waitress. Believe me Honey, I always go into waitress mode when dealing with undecisive or pushsy men.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I thought this day would never come. I agree 100% with OP. Ow, my fingers got a cramp typing that.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
I haven't heard back from these guys. Maybe my price was too steep to remove it. And after lots of thought, I have decided that if they DO want it done, I will turn it down. You guys are right, I'm not gonna risk it. And Alicia, I'm gonna use that tough girl attitude to tell them if they ask me. Thank you sweetie, I can always use the extra "courage"! Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
Yep- I agree with OP too! Next thing you know we will all be walkin around in red speedos, throwing pottery while watching the steelers play football
It sounds like too many issues that would blow up in my face if I was the one suckered into doing it- I think you made the right decision by passing on it- maybe they can just bring you the fresh doors and let you do what you want on them.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
you are right if I try the oven cleaner it might ruin it. Maybe if I try a test spot?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)