I do alot of driving and of course, I study the local signs. Man, it's getting really bad. Stupid, poorly designed banners where a pernament sign sould be. A-Frames dirty, on the ground, cluttering up the place. And then there are those common "Feather" stand up banners. I want to stop in some of these places and ask, "What are you thinking? Would you stop in this place". In my area when a new non-franchise business opens up, they get,,,,, 1. A printed banner 2. 4 Feather banners 3. 1 24 x 36 in A-Frame 4. Chalkboard sign stating business hours and services And of course, the real give away is the "Interally Lit Changable Copy Sign" Six months to a year later, the businees goes under and the whole scenario starts all over again. Yeah, it's an old rant, but sometimes I like to think that maybe business owers would be a little smarter than that,, at least by now.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Yeah, it is kinda like they used to do window splashes...Oh wait a minute. I do those?
Seriously, the junky banners that replace a permanent sign and the feathers look tacky. I just did a Chrysler store that had changed hands several months ago. They had a blue on white cheapie banner clear taped over the old sign, but one corner was loose and already ripped. I asked them about it and they said the sign shop that did it for them ripped them off. I suggested a more permanent solution, but they balked. A place like that spends 50k a month on overhead and cheaps out on a sign. Amazing.
[ May 23, 2013, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Preston McCall ]
Posted by Shirley Carron (Member # 2446) on :
Alicia,
In my area when a new non-franchise business opens up, they get,,,,, 1. A printed banner 2. 4 Feather banners 3. 1 24 x 36 in A-Frame 4. Chalkboard sign stating business hours and services And of course, the real give away is the "Interally Lit Changable Copy Sign"
Can I ask where are they are getting all this signage from?
We have a similar problem here where a lot of new businesses fall under the spell of "VistaPrint" an online company that allows customers to "design" all the signs and stationary they need. Of course it's all crappy and the client calls within 6 months because the signs are falling apart. By then they've spent the budget and are looking for something cheap because they can't afford to buy signs a second time and well, "once burned..." And Vista really makes it's money in shipping...not so much in product!!!!
This sort of thing is just never going to stop.
[ May 23, 2013, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Shirley Carron ]
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
You know, those damn feather banners have got to be the biggest rip-off of all time.
First of all, they're usually quite expensive.
Second, they're printed on very thin, flimsy material. The copy is backwards on one side. Does nobody care?
And thirdly, many don't hold up worth a crap. I've seen several, that were less than a year old, that were either faded badly, frayed and shredded from the wind, or all of the above.
I wish I had invented them; there's a sucker born every minute!
[ May 23, 2013, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Dale Feicke ]
Posted by FranCisco Vargas (Member # 145) on :
How about the air ones that the arms and body flip and flop all wild and crazy. Yup the sign world has been changing...
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
Alicia .. Be glad you don't live in Orlando
1....The city picks & chooses which stores can open with least amount of hassles & have what signage they want.
2....Like to solve the banner problem ..none ..or if ya still want one high permit cost for ..ONE month
3...But those feathers banners are ok if ya bring them in at night.
4...Oh yes you want a sign good idea 2-1/2 sq ft per running foot of frontage example 20 foot front on road 50 sq ft ..note does not matter how big of building or how many businesses in building still only 50 sq ft ...note that includes door, windows, wall, pole sign, sidewalk sign everything.
5...No murals that pertain to business like ya got a auto shop no mural with a cars in it.
6....Yes & you need a permit for even changing copy with out taking anything down or mounting anything up.
7....No trucks or trailers with sign advertising or anything as such ..parked out front of business even if you move it on daily basis.
Unless the city leaders like your business then rules do not apply.
As far as advertising signs goes 50% of the signs are letters top to bottom side to side ..sold for just above sign shops cost to free ...mounting it ya get raked over the coals. try $450 just to get a engineers stamp on a 4ft x 8ft sign made from Coroplas.
How do I get by you ask.
My business is not registered, I do not get permits, only do signs were the material is mounted already...This way I can sell & do it
..Customer pays fine & gets permit after, everybody happy cause they sold enough to deal with it & sign looks good or inspector is happy anyway & did not pay attention enough.
Here in Orlando alot of great sign people have been here & you see specs of outstanding signs, but after awhile they move away or do something else, because of above mention garbage.
I too have been changing & relying on less business signage for income also because the rules have been getting worse & more enforced
Business here will have a million dollar inventory etc, but only pay $100 for a sign attitude also.
I'm tired of it & why I enjoy the Walldog meets, cause in real the Walldogs do something for a community & they in real benefit greatly.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
My customers are actually finding places online that will build an actually decent sign for prices so low, I can't even afford to TALK to the customer about said sign, let alone build, order it, design it, mark it up, etc.
How about 18"x24" double-sided coroplast for less than $2 each? Available to the public at large! How can I compete?
Don't even ask me about competition in the font world.
Posted by Curt Stenz (Member # 82) on :
Welcome to the NEW NORM'. Things ain't getting much better and they will likely deteriorate.
Sorry for sounding so negative, but until this administration gets out of the way, what do you expect? It get's harder and harder for the small business to exist, let alone flourish.
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
I'm putting up a set of channel letters shipped from china. He saved hundreds. The letters spell "signs & displays" Yes, he's a sign company.
Welcome to the new normal. You want fried rice with that?
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
And the haggling! Never in all my years have I been ridden so hard to match lowball quotes...
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Threads like this make me shake my head and get me worked up in a big way. I've tried my best to stay quiet but I can;'t stand it any longer... I must be doing something very wrong.
I've seen the feather banners and 'less than stellar' signs locally but they don't bother me... CRAP SIgns have been around since I started in this business four decades ago. Ive seen them in every town I've ever lived in or visited. I suspect it will not change anytime soon - if ever. SO WHAT?!!! I choose not to create or sell signs anything like the signs I see all around me. I purposely do not do 'regular' signage that would place my sign shop in a crowded marketplace with lots of competition where the deciding factor is much too often price alone.
We live in a very small town, with lots of other sign shops in the area. I work from my back yard with our shop 320 feet off the road. That could be a recipe for disaster but instead we use it as a chance to be creative and make our work stand out from the masses.
I've heard (from local sign shops) that competition is fierce and that it's hard to make a buck. (Sound familiar?) But somehow this has not affected us in the least. Is it magic or are we charmed. Do I have more talent or ability than others. NO! NO! NO!
Instead, we purposely placed ourselves in a dimensional and creative sign market that has little competition. For every ten people that come up the driveway I send nine away with nothing. Price, creative control and long waiting times for our work weed out my non-customers.
Despite living far from a major city we keep as busy as we can stand. We charge enough to make a good living. We do the most creative work imaginable ON OUR TERMS. Customers wait months and sometimes much longer to get our work. Most days we work without crazy deadlines and stress.
Was it easy or instant. No. But over time a successful business that creates unique work will build up a demand is possible. I think it can be done anywhere as our shop proves. From the sound of what I hear in the sign business, doing work that is like everyone else's isn't especially profitable or enjoyable in the long haul.
I strongly believe similar creative work (in a style of your choosing) like that we create in our shop is doable by most any creative person in the sign business. It's not hard. My staff is for the most part college age kids with no training prior to coming to work for us. It is not rocket science.
What I do not understand most is that most people in the sign business don't do especially creative work but instead do what everyone else does or marginally better... They use the same substrates, same fonts, same materials - then endlessly complain about how crazy and crowded the marketplace is. Trying to sell a sign to those who don't 'need' or want your creative work is futile. DUH
Look in the mirror folks instead of blaming those around us. What does your showroom and display area look like? is your shop a shining example of the type of work you WANT to do in the future? You will be known tomorrow for the kind of work you do today.
What you do is up to you! Be in control of your own destiny.
I'm getting off my soapbox now.
-grampa dan
Posted by Rick Janzen (Member # 7227) on :
I second your motion Dan, instead of complaining and criticizing other peoples work, do something about it. I also decided long ago not to chase the 3 quote jobs, instead focusing on the specialty work. 99% of my work is hand painted, and I am sought out for my skills, not my price. It was a hard road to travel, but well worth taking.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Thanks Rick.
Rick's last comment is worth noting... true in my own experience...
quote:It was a hard road to travel, but well worth taking.
-grampa dan
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
and then you can always find something that others cant do with a computer)))))
[ May 26, 2013, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
[ May 26, 2013, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Shirley Carron (Member # 2446) on :
" Dan Right"!!!! Sorry for the pun... but thank you Dan.I think it all comes down to educating the customer or putting the "blinders" on and just do what you do... Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
We've found a way to get around permits, engineering, and the like, by specializing in interior signage and graphics and by offering wholesale work to other sign companies that get the permits, etc. About 60% of the work we do is wholesale, 30% is interior or other non-permitable work like vehicle graphics, banners and small exterior signs that don't require permits in this municipality. If it needs a permit, we let the customer take care of it or not, it's their choice. What works for Dan or Rick or I might not work for everyone in fact the three of us have all taken very different directions from each other. More importantly we have taken different directions from our "competition". That said, I enjoy going head to head once in a while with other sign companies. We recently did a job for a business that went out to many sign companies for quotes. We got the job because our website shows we can do the job and our face to face consultation showed we were professional, promt and knowledgeable...not the cheepest. Hey, it hasn't been easy, but I've been blessed with good health and a wonderful wife of 37 years. I still work hard and as long as I have staff and business commitments there is no letting up. At anytime we could lose is all. Being self employed is not for the faint of heart. The risks are high, the rewards are modest at best.
Posted by Rick Janzen (Member # 7227) on :
Well said Duncan. Sorry I didn't get a chance to drop by when I was in town, but I will be back in July.
Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
not quite...........i was way better looking then that)))))and i had HAIR....unlike someone else here)))) Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Well said Dan.....I totally agree with you.
QUOTING YOU:
"Was it easy or instant. No. But over time a successful business that creates unique work will build up a demand is possible. I think it can be done anywhere as our shop proves. From the sound of what I hear in the sign business, doing work that is like everyone else's isn't especially profitable or enjoyable in the long haul."
HERE IS MY PERSONAL TAKE ON THIS MATTER:
Ok, so you do not have the same skills and/or interests that Dan has.....
But,you are in the business of creating and/or painting signs........First, throw away the damned pricing guides and price according to what you think your work is worth.... ( By now, you should know how and be able to pro rate your overhead, shop hours, material, installation, etc., etc.)...Never mind what the other sign shop is charging.....Second, do not participate in the estimate game ( It will cost you money to give a free estimate, not knowing if you will get the job.)
Using your best "polite" skills, make sure you let your customer know it by saying: "I am not in the estimate business. I am in the business of painting and/or making signs.......If you just want an estimate, I will have to charge you for my time ( travel, gas, design, etc. ) or you can choose to go somewhere else, where you can get a free estimate." ( Here, is when you suggest the name of another sign shop, especially the one owned by the guy you never liked )......Sounds arrogant?.....Too bad.....Deal with it!
Finally, make sure you tell your prospect: "If you want a sign, you came to the right place. We will work with your budget."
In over 45 years of my life, hand painting signs, I never, never worried about what the other guy was charging.....I just didn't care.....Why?....Simply because I had decided not to let others dictate the pricing of my sign work. Only, I was qualified to do so.....No one else.....If I screwed up in my pricing ( high or low ), it was OK.... and I chalked it up as another learning lesson.
Now, some of you will say: "Technology has totally changed the sign business.....If you want to stay in the sign business, you would have to embrace the technology". To that, I say: BS !
It's true, but, for those who believe in themselves and, really, have the skills ( creativeness, design, layout, prioritizing, lettering, etc. ) and the love for the trade, there are other areas where they can shine in this trade.
A few examples, at least, for the sign painter, would be to try to concentrate and target hand painted work.........How about window advertising ( Splash ), hand painted wall signs ( interior and exterior walls ), murals ( on interior and exterior walls ), building walls, corrugated metal walls, themed signage for theme parks, themed restaurants ( here is a new trend, "themed restaurants"....they need lettering and graphics for the outside walls and, also, for the interior walls ), themed stores, boat lettering ( I have learned that boat owners prefer hand painted lettering to vinyl graphics, on their boats ), etc. ???
Here is a shocker, for many of you....How about PAPER SIGNS?....Back in my days, paper signs where a frikin money maker....Not a high end product, but, something a sign painter can do very quick, without spending too much time, in the shop or wherever he keeps his easel......Paper signs are needed today, as they were back in the 1960s......All you would need is paper, charcoal and poster paint...........and talent, of course.....but we , already, know you have it otherwise you would not be reading this.
About the new technology, you, also, could have the advantage of using Corel Draw ( if you choose to do so ) as a design and/or sales tool ( or any other design program ) to design and sell what you choose to paint....Using a design program will, really, expedite your design time, presentation and closing of the deal with the customer.........Now,there is your embracing of technology for you !
So, what is holding you back?.....The opinion of the others?..........Pleeeease!
I "talk" this way because it, really, hurts me to hear so many skilled sign artists complaining so much, when, in reality, the solution to "their problem" is in their own hands......Go get'em !
I am 75 years old and, happily, retired, but if I were a little bit younger, I would be doing exactly what I just suggested before.....anywhere in the USA or any other part of the world.
RD
P.S --- Leave the word "cheap" outside of your sign vocabulary......You do not want to do cheap.....Leave cheap to the "click and drag designers".
[ May 26, 2013, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
The talk of pricing reminds me of when my father moved the family back to his home town to start a sign shop.
He went to a local grocery store that had hand-painted paper banners in the window. Dad thought he'd offer a lowball price of just $4 each just so he could get his foot in the door. The store manager laughed at him. Another sign painter was doing them for $1 each. What's made it worse is that the paper banners were well executed.
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Glenn,
During the time that I lived in Boston ( 1969/1975 ) and going to Butera School of Art, I was doing lots of paper signs at $2.00 per square foot ( in addition to other sign work ) and making plenty of money, from the paper signs, to pay my bills.
Trust me....they, also, were well executed.
Sometimes, I would, even, charge $1.00 per square foot ( whenever there was a high volume of paper signs to be made ) and, still, make good money to pay for my needs....
When I say $1.00 or $2.00 per square foot, I am referring to the size of the paper, not to the size of the copy.
For example, a typical 3' x 4' with the word "Tomatoes" and the price, lets say: "25 cents/LB." would be sold for $12 ( @ $1.00/sq. ft. ).....If you stop and think that a skilled sign painter, in those days, could do one in 10 minutes, and five of them in one hour, he would be making $60.00 an hour, for just painting five paper signs......Not bad, at all, even by today standards of those who only worry about making a "profit".
Another fact to consider is that it was a different time and the cost of living was much, much lower than now.
So.... I suppose that, now, they can be done for a little bit more, than in those days.....But, the concept remains the same.
You have to understand that the copy on a paper sign was usually the name of the product and the price of that product.......They, usually, were not too congested with copy......It would have been foolish to charge $1.00 or $2.00 per square foot, if the customer would have requested each sign to have a passage of the Bible lettered on it.
Something to, also, take into consideration is the fact that paper signs were not, only, sold to groceries store ( that's a myth )......They were, also, sold to all kinds of businesses.....They were very popular, low cost, and very effective for any type of business....As they, still, are today.
I remember I used to do paper signs for grocery stores, furniture stores, restaurants, banks, etc.
In my opinion, paper signs, would make a heck of a money maker by today standards, if they are done in the manner that I have described here.
RD
[ May 26, 2013, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
You may need to sit down, Ricardo, Because we are in agreement. Many are going to have to get off their butts and practice with the brush in order to become proficient again. I am doing this now. I practice drawing first and then painting the Egyptian alphabet for about an hour every day. I am getting better. I am also learning. Did you know that the name of that style had nothing really to do with Egypt? It was named that because it became readily available for the press at a time when anything about Egyptology was the craze. Pure marketing. But I have veered away from the topic. Folks are seeking us out for hand lettering simply because so few are offering it now. I look forward to remaining a signpainter as well as a vinyler with a eye towards good design no matter the medium. If you are getting most of the jobs you bid on you are probably not doing this right. If Folks do not buy something you offer after a personal consultation you are probably not doing something right as well. Show them your website, offer a solution while you are there backed up with an on the spot rough sketch. Your availability and interest in their need is your best selling point.
[ May 26, 2013, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Bob Sauls ]
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
I can't believe it!!.....But, glad to know that you, "Mr. Controversy", is, finally, beginning to see the light.....Like they say down under, "Good on ya, mate!
RD
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
[ May 26, 2013, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
I suspect that if we sat down an talked we would agree to be agreeable about many many things. I am in awe of your body of work Sir as well as all of the places and people you have worked with. Some things are lost on a keyboard, many of the controversies are typed about with a smile on my face. You mentioned your age are you still painting some? I hope that you do.
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Bob,
Thanks you so much, for your first kind words...Yes, once in a big while, I draw or paint....I guess it's in my blood....Can't help it.
Here is small token of appreciation for your interest in letters:
[ May 26, 2013, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Ricardo Davila ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ricardo,
Your price is about what my father should have been able to sell the banners for. However, this guy was selling 3'x6' paper banners for $1. The whole banner for a dollar.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Ranting is good and healthy. I say, "Why hold it in."
One of the good things about working in a family business is things can be vented with those you love and trust ... and on a regular basis.
What my rant would be involves the customers who come in with a design they executed on their computer with some cheap software. They are just wanting you be an agent for duplicating their design. And when you suggest a total rework of their design or else you'll have to show them the door, you know you're going to break their heart with your criticisms and in doing so you appear aloof. I don't like to break anybody's heart -- even when they need it. We spend a lot of time discussing ways to do that that will hurt people's feeling the least.
My main rant is our customers who, after we make their sign, want us to put the design on a disc. They do not want to pay our logo price, but like our sign design so much that they want to use it for other advertising. When we explain to them that we own the design until we have been fully compensated, they'll look you in the eye and say they fully understand that. Then they'll turn right around and find a sign company that will take your design, copy it and start making signs with your design using inferior products and techniques. Then these projects fail & your name is associated with it based on your design. That's the biggest difference between the computer era and the precomputer era for me.
In the days when everything was done without computers this didn't seem to be as big of a problem. People were amazed by your ability to make a nicely proportioned letter and that almost always seperated you from others and usually sold the job at the price you wanted.
On the discussion of paper signs ... I really enjoyed making them. They really helped me learn the mechanics of lettering. Like showcards they forced you to make quick decisions on creative layouts and designs.
Grandpa Dan, you make me laugh with your comment about NOT having more talent "no,no,no." You are one of the geniuses of our trade, my friend, and have always been a cheerleader for those who need to reinvent themselves. The vast majority in our trade, though, will never reach your level and their need to rant is beneficial and justified.
Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
Dan's modest and self-deprecating statement about not having more talent or ability than others also produced a little chuckle in me as well.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Nicely put Bill. Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Glenn,
Wow !!....I have never heard of any sign painter selling a paper sign for $1.00..........Amazing!!
Thanks for clearing that out.
RD
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Dan,
QUOTING YOU;
" Do I have more talent or ability than others. NO! NO! NO!"
MY ANSWER:
Yes, Yes , Yes !!
RD
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
Dan has talent for sure but the point he is making is significant. There are many just as talented. What impresses me and sets him apart is he has the guts to draw a line in the sand (even if his are whimsical lines) and follow a dream.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Well said Dan. When you produce a commodity the same as every one else, you can't expect the people buying it to care about much more than the price of that commodity.
Sell them something they can't get elsewhere, and you won't have to worry much about competitors and what they might be charging.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I stand by my statement. The talent we are born with is only the starting point - not the finish line. Lots of folks have talent... but not many have the passion and drive to take things as far as humanly possible.
Most sign makers (and others) I know instead take the safe road, doing things the way they did yesterday, not taking risks or challenging themselves on a regular basis. I have the most fun when things are on the very edge of control. This past year has been one of my most challenging yet and as a result I believe the work shows it in exceptional ways.
Sometimes I wonder what I will do to top the current work we are doing but somehow I've managed to up the bar significantly every year for forty years in a row. I wouldn't be happy unless I could. Imagine what is in store next.
We all have much more inside us than we believe. We just have to dig deep and find it. It isn't easy but it sure beats working. It also means I have absolutely no time to worry about the poor work out there that I may see.
-grampa dan
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I just stopped to see where this post has gone. I was in Los Angeles for a few dayz. All I can say is "Wow!" And tomorrow is a new day with new challenges. And I ain't givin' up on trying to sell beautiful, top notch signage. The mouse has roared. And,,,, if that don't work,, I'm gonna shoot holes in all of local signs that "I" don't like.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Hire vandals on commission. Now, there's an out of the box... or out of the pen... or completely out of sorts... business plan!
Posted by Dan Beach (Member # 9850) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Harding: Hire vandals on commission. Now, there's an out of the box... or out of the pen... or completely out of sorts... business plan!
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