I've been asked to do a corporate looking sign for this wall, Raised letters, probably gold in color, not quite yet sure, but was thinking of mounting them to a Background first, maybe black acrylic, or stainless steel, but with that cultured rock being so thin, and uneven, what type of mounting system would you recommend? Was thinking of a Suspension system, or even pre determining where the holes would line up and trying to keep the holes well behind the sign just in case the rocks split and I have to so some patch work...any Ideas?
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Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on November 05, 2012 12:41 PM:
Neil,
Check out this site........You might find the answer to your questions, here.
RD
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on November 05, 2012 06:25 PM:
Lots of Sikkaflex adhesive maybe?
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 05, 2012 08:40 PM:
The bloody stone is so weak and uneven none of the techniques in the videos address my concerns, I may have to chip away a little bit of stone to get to the drywall, thanks.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on November 06, 2012 09:47 AM:
I think stud mount would look great - if the client wants to spend the money and you have the patience.
However, for budget purposes, I would lean towards a solid, opaque background and, maybe, suspend it from the ceiling?
The design, total weight/size would be the determining factor.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on November 06, 2012 11:46 AM:
king clips would give you a nice hidden system with a bit of a space, just be careful to use spacers on the uneven surface so the clips don't get bent, or possibly use wall toggles to mount some 3/4 ply or mdf cut smaller than the background panel, then the king clips or stainless standoffs to mount the background panel to that? I like the suspension system idea, or floor to ceiling aluminum pipes with edge crips or standoffs?
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on November 06, 2012 03:06 PM:
Google standoffs, there are a number of different systems available. I think they would work well.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 06, 2012 06:00 PM:
Thanks, I like the idea of stand offs for sure, thats what I'm leaning towards.. it's just this rock wall thats giving me a bit of a head ache.lol
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on November 06, 2012 08:16 PM:
Neil, I would mount an mdf panel to the wall with the wall toggles, but put threaded inserts into the back of the mdf first, then thread the standoff studs into the inserts, call me if you need to and I'll explain it a bit better
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 07, 2012 02:49 PM:
Thanks Pete..
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on November 07, 2012 05:25 PM:
How heavy are the letters? What is behind the cultured stone? In most cases a stud mount would work. You might try a ceramic cutting bit to bore through the stuff to get at the solid wall or, if it's "dry stack" stone, just put your studs between the joints. If you're going to install a piece of stainless steel, it's probably going to need standoffs and if it's drywall, you're going to need to find and mount into the studs for sure, I don't know if an electronic stud finder is going to detect them through the stone. Mine wouldn't.
[ November 07, 2012, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on November 07, 2012 05:39 PM:
Neil,
Usually that kind of "stone" will drill fairly well with a standard drill and a carbide masonry bit. A hammer drill or rotary hammer will tend to cause cracking.
I would use standoffs for a solid panel background, and place them 4-5 inches in from the edges, just in case. That will give enough room to cover any cracks that might happen. You can use toggle bolts to anchor the standoffs, but you will probably need to add spacers to some of them to create a flat mount for the background.
Another advantage to placing the standoffs farther in is it helps hide the spacers. I have done this before, and used flat washers behind the standoffs to get close to flat. then place the flat panel against the standoffs to see where you need additional spacers between the standoffs and the panel.
I hope this makes sense.
You're welcome to call me too if you want.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 08, 2012 08:02 AM:
Thanks Again, I believe the stud mounted way is the best way, as far as stainless, I'm probably going to just use Dibond with the stainless finish... if thats the way we go, I was thinking of using a Black Acrylic background as well... decisions decisions... thanks for the email Don!
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on November 08, 2012 06:41 PM:
Not trying to shoot anyone's idea down, I would suggest individual letters / logo with long studs siliconed deep into the wall. I think that if you put a panel with panel clips... even a clear acrylic panel installed with standoffs, (which I use both), you would defeat the purpose of having that very cool faux brick. Also, its indoor. No need to spend so much on stainless. I'd go with brushed aluminum. My $.02
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on November 08, 2012 07:07 PM:
Felix has a very good point.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 09, 2012 07:54 AM:
Yes Felix has a very good Idea, which is appreciated, but the problem is the Stone, drilling that many holes would destroy it, it would crack, and flake away... that is what worries me using that method... believe me, I thought of using that first... Thanks!
Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on November 09, 2012 12:24 PM:
Being indoors you could use individual letters with pad mount and double stick tape. You could adjust the pads to keep everything kind of even. The big problem would be IF they ever decided to remove it.
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on November 09, 2012 01:38 PM:
and because of the uneven surface some letters would be spaced far enough from the surface that the studs and pads would be visible from any angle, how about a perforated aluminum backgroud, a 50% prf is pretty transparnet allowing the wall to show but creates a nice shadow and sbtle airy background that helps legibility and hides the mounting
Posted by Sam Staffan (Member # 4552) on November 09, 2012 08:47 PM:
I have read all the posts and I am sitting here thinking to myself there are a lot of great ways to to this and yes there have been a lot mentioned, but how can one truly give input if we don't know what is going on the wall.
I would love to see their logo to really see some great results as how to go about it.
Neil have you actual tested the stone with multible type bits to see the drilling process?
We all know there are different type bits for just about anything out there for plasters, stones, marbles, glass etc right down to what is best for drilling bone. That is a great canvas to put something really cool on and the install technique is part of this that can really make the difference from just a logo on the wall or people looking at it and thinking that is really unique expecially the way it was applied.
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on November 10, 2012 02:56 PM:
I agree that it would be a shame to cover the stone with a panel. But I have also cracked many a stone with a hammer drill. Don H's idea that a drill bit without hammer action sounds promising. Is it not true that a stone splits due to internal stresses created when it was formed? Is not cultured stone free of these stresses? I don't know for sure. I'm just thinking out loud.
I would like to see a picture of the finished job, and I would especially like to know how the cultured stone reacted to drilling.
Brad in Kansas City
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 11, 2012 06:05 AM:
Thanks for all the suggestions, Yes Sam you guys should see what was suggested by another design company, and what I suggested, I'm home now and up early on this rememberance day, but their logo is just the words "Ottenhiemer Baker" they are a law firm, but the lettering is probably the worst kind, sorta like Optima Light, and the stroke is probably a half inch at the widest and then it gets smaller after that. I'll post some photos of the sketches on Tuesday, and Yes I'm picking up some samples of the stone on Tuesday to test it for drilling, and not using the hammer mode...Petes Idea sounds interesting as well, I thought of clear or smoked acrylic as well, so that is something else that I'm considering.... the Customer likes the Idea of individual letters, but the design company did'nt even come look at the wall???
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on November 11, 2012 10:56 AM:
hey Neil, sent you some pics with perffed aluminum, let me know if you didn't get them
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 11, 2012 03:42 PM:
Where would I get that perforated alluminum? I'll check out those photos on Tuesday pete... don't get my work email at home... thanks
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on November 11, 2012 05:49 PM:
Lay them out upside down on a table, snap two parallel chalk lines, glue on some narrow tubing and string them on a fish line or airplane cable between stand offs. Slide the end letters over to cover the stand offs. Okay, I'm just joking, but I'm betting that a system like that could be developed with cable and some type of locking clip on each letter, or maybe one already does. Easy kerning. Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 12, 2012 07:08 AM:
You had me going there for a second kelly,lol Not a real Bad Idea for other apps all the same.
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on November 12, 2012 09:14 AM:
you can get perffed aluminum, steel and stainless at any metal supplier, I get mine at Canada Steel, 40% is more solid, 50% more transparent. It can be almost invisible when backlit, like the stainless sail in the Goderich sign in the pics I sent you.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 12, 2012 10:42 AM:
That looks Good Pete, I'll check that out as well... thanks
Here's couple of proofs, the one with the individual letters is what they like, I like it also, but it worries me for a couple of reasons, Getting pads small enough for the letters, so they don't look messy and the rock, having to drill that many holes per letter may destroy it, pads won't work cause you'll easily see them.. I know all that has been said before... anyway just wanted you guys to see the options thus far...Clear acrylic is also something else I'm considering
The rock is about a Half inch to an inch thick.
[ November 12, 2012, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on November 12, 2012 11:33 AM:
or, etched or gue chip glass panel, you would only need 6 standoffs and holes, then glue or dbl sided tape the letters to that, best of both worlds, you can even tint it if you like
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 12, 2012 07:41 PM:
I agree, I just have to convince them that the individual letters may be too much for the rock... I Know the smaller ones will certainly be almost impossible...at least I think so.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on November 12, 2012 08:01 PM:
Well you should be able to do that with the price. Make sure the individual letters are priced plenty high enough that you can be sure you are covered for any problems you might have. Honestly I think I'd likely quote well over double for the one method over the other. Also tell them you can make no guarantee's as to how the rock will drill. Then if they still want to go for it at least you have a nice cushion to fall on and the job won't seem as stressful or frustrating.
Then again I suppose the quote is already in with the choices....
[ November 12, 2012, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
Posted by Sam Staffan (Member # 4552) on November 12, 2012 08:20 PM:
I like what your doing Neil, I think you having that small copy just may be in your favor since the studs will be small and that means smaller bits so drilling should be fine. It is hard to tell from the pictures just how uneven the stone is but with the studs if they show a little to much because of the depth difference I may consider spraying then flat black.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on November 13, 2012 03:49 PM:
Thanks Kelly Sam, They sent me a sample of the stone today, and I am quite surprised at how easy it is to drill, they have decided not to use the smaller letters and just go with the name, so this may work out after all, I'll keep you informed... thanks Everyone!
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on November 14, 2012 09:53 AM:
Hey Niel, Kelly's idea isn't that bad because Gemini does offer a raceway mounting option and/or you can make your own. If you use Gemini, just have to specify that the letters will be mounted on this way and they'll pretty much take care of everything else. Here's a project I did a while back that used a combination of a raceway with bottom stud mount letters - as specified by the architect...
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