I do the fence signs for the little league. Last year, an architect became a sponsor. I told them the layout he sent wasn't going to work - too many words, too small of letters. He had his entire resume on it. His name was the biggest lettering at 3.5" tall. Nope, that's what it has to be.
A few months ago, he called about having his 2nd story windows done, the same way & didn't like when I told him that with that much copy it would not be readable at that distance (just like the ball field sign).
He's now decided that his little league sign isn't readable (duh!) so he re-designed it. He didn't convert to curves or embed the font, so I can't do anything with the pdf he sent.
Oh, and he prefers to work with me on this THROUGH the contact at the little league instead of directly like all the other sponsors do. Musta been a blow to his ego that a girl that just makes signs told a big, bad architect his signs weren't perfect.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
I went to Grad school in Architecture. Never once was there ever a mention of signage, but they sure did talk alot about Helvetica and footings being 39" deep.
The elements of design, so revered were mostly about the look and feel of well balanced architecture. I learned more about sign design from comic books and Sign of the Times, when they were really more about sign painting in the 70s.
Your architect client sounds rather full of ego and control. I learned from working for the car dogs, to just smile like a cheshire cat, back and stick to my guns. It takes a poker face to win over a control freak who thinks he knows more than you do. Practise each morning in the mirror...imagine how the Corleons acted and how every simple objection your client has, is never really relevant, if you want to gain their respect. Of course it helps being able to actually design a sign and that is why we are all right here at Letterville!
Posted by Donald Miner (Member # 6472) on :
I would let it be known that I want to deal directly with this jerk. Then bring up the subject of legibility, say "see I told you so!' Then hand him the distance legibility chart, provided of course he or she can read it. Take him to the ball park to compare his sign to the others. When it comes to outdoor advertising, if you can't say it in seven words or less, don't say it. If all this fails, hand him a catalog of brushes and let him try his hand at your trade. Peace, Don
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Just do the sign. Cash the check. I don't see the problem.
If he later realizes you knew what you were talking about, and wants it redone. Do it again, and get paid again.
This kind of customer isn't rare. But hey...his money is green.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i do little league baseball/football signs. for these THEY DECIDED to do 32" X 48". someone else figured out they could get 3 of these from 1 - 4 X 8 coro sheet. so i dont have a big sign to work with, and cant do the negative space yada yada!!! try to keep it to 3-4 lines of copy, no crazy logos and the bottom line is......I DESIGN THE LAYOUT FOR THE SIGN......NOBODY ELSE!!!!! i usually get a business card attached to the contract. sucky ones at that)))) and I DO THE SIGN.......MY WAY!!! i tell the folks who are doing the little league.......IF THE PERSON DONT LIKE WHAT I DID.........give them my phone number and i will explain it to them)))))
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I'll do whatever sign he wants. I just thought it was funny that he doesn't want to deal with me directly, which has to be because he didn't like when I told him about his unreadability. And the reason we're doing a new sign is because it was unreadable. I wouldn't tell him "I told you so" but.... Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
this is why God made digital printers, so ya ain't gotta cut and weed the small stuff
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Amen, Brother Adkins!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I understand what Chris is saying, and it's frustrating sometimes. Like today I'm lettering the most god aweful thing I've seen to date. Made several recommendations but all were ignored. So I do what any business person would do. Give the customer what they want, collect the check and deposit it.
Smile when you cash his check, each and every time
[ March 27, 2012, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
I designed some nice preliminary logos a couple weeks ago. The customer came to the shop with something his eighth grade daughter threw together on her computer. I had to wait for school to let out to get the font, because it was truly something neither I not what the font.com had ever seen before.
Tis the nature of the beast sometimes.
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
Do whatever the idiot wants, take his money and don't look back. After 42 years in this business, I am tired of arguing. As of late, I've found that "I don't know %%%&*( about signs."
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
At the risk of sounding redundent...That is what I preached for years... "Take the Money and Run"!!!
It was a good tune too!!! Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
architects are above us as sign makers. The are educated on design and what not. I despise architects. Booksmart but no common. The can design ductwork thru a skyscraper but cant place a damn word on a sign
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
The thing that has to be understood about architect-designed jobsite signs is thet they're NOT REALLY SIGNS. At least within the context that we, as signcrafters understand. What they are, in actuality, are ego boards where all and sundry associated with the construction of the project, gets their name listed. These usually include, but are not limited to :
1. Architect 2. General Contractor 3. Structural Engineer 4. HVAC subcontractor 5. Plumbing subcontractor 6. Roofing subcontractor 7. Any and all governmental agencies who contributed anything at all toward the cost of the project
These structures are not intended to sell anything, nor to create an "image or brand" but simply to identify those whose expertise contributed to the completion of the project.
They are what they are, but they're certainly not signs as we generally know them. So, why should we expect these to conform to rules of design that we're familiar with ?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I'm with Bob - 'give the customer what they want, cash the check and deposit it.'
It is frustrating sometimes when folks who are not professionals within our industry try to dictate how to best convey a sign message.
However, think how frustrated architects probably get when they come up with a fantastic building concept and then have their clients insist they want a bathroom right off the kitchen or dining room where everyone can hear you pee while their trying to sip their dinner wine. hehe.... we ALL have our bugaboos.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Todd,
If that bathroom location kills the appetite and causes the client to lose weight, it might be a good thing...
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
as someone that's familiar with skyscraper design and engineering, no, architects don't know crap about running ductwork through a skyscraper either.
An architect is more akin to a graphic designer.
Sign makers are more like the technicians and engineers that actually make a design work.
We have a new CEO at work and he's not nearly as easy to train as the owner was. He throws all kinds of projects around and hasn't quite caught on that when I object to something, it's cause I know what I'm talking about, and that at the end of the day I'm gonna do what I wanna do anyway so his input is nearly meaningless. One day I had to yell at him "If you knew how to do it you wouldn't need me, and if I didn't know what I was doing I woulda been fired two years ago!" He made a quick quip about my cheap K-Mart shorts and walked out of the office. LOL Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
This thread speaks volumes more about us than the architects.
We all at some level are trying to make peace with ourselves about our choice to have a level of financial security in commercial-art, even though we have developed our skills and knowledge to a place where we would be recognized as "masters" in other artistic arenas.
Our contentment may be found in loving our clients, truly serve them for THEIR betterment. Do cash the check after getting them as far as they will allow you to towards good design.
Posted by Mark Fair Signs (Member # 289) on :
well said Bob!
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
My take is to point out why the design won't work. If they insist, just smile, say OK, cash the check. If you say nothing, you just might run into the guy that realized his design was crap and "why didn't the sign person tell me it wouldn't work? They mustn't know their stuff," in which case you could lose that customer.
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