I've been asked to quote on re lettering this wall as well as a mural on Dibond to be installed underneath. The mural portion I can figure, but I have no idea how long it will take to redo the lettering. I assume a pounce pattern would be the way to go. Can any one give me an idea what to price this job at or at least how long it will take? Any suggestions for does and don'ts as well as paint choices? I'm thinking BM Aura with Fresh Start primer. The lettering is about 75' long and 24" high. Small town so $ figure has to be attainable. (read "on the cheaper side") Lettering reads BARBER, BILLIARDS, TOBACCONIST Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Is the wall going to be painted first? Is that stone? If they only want you to reletter the old, use 1 Shot. It looks like 1 day labor to reletter.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
minimum.........to just paint 2' X 75' would be $10 a sq ft or $1500. this can go up to $25-30 s.f. depending on the paint. THIS IS JUST FOR THE LETTERS!!!! now if you gota clean, scrape old loose paint rent for a man lift or scaffolding, travel to and back home, pressure wash of the wall, repaint the wall is all labor intensive. my wife works for a industrial coating co. they do water tanks, mills, and factories...i help them with pricing the lettering on these building.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
The wall is old metal panels. Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I'm using my paint thick these days, it's a little slower, not much. I think it's 8 or 9 hours, but that's with a pretty smooth surface, not corrugated; and not including lunch, cell phone or other interruptions. That's with the letters already "drawn" on the wall, however you do it. If I needed a pattern, I would tape the paper on the wall, wet with mineral spirits, and pencil draw while still wet. This pattern making, perforation, pouncing, wall prepping is all extra time, so is driving and fuel cost.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
Why the hell would anyone use one shot for this? Use latex. as much conversation and dissapointment that is posted on here about eh how one shot fails I cant belive there is even a discussion about it
As far as the lettering I would letter it just as it was. you already have the letters there I dont see why you would need a pounce pattern if I were quoting this I would do it for $1000 IF it was painted as is. If i was to remake lettering with patterns it would be bout $1600 given all the "small town" info you provided
Cool job!
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
This job is going to depend a lot on your skill level and how you go about doing it. I'm going to assume the wall is going to be repainted. A job like this is basically about time. The less time spent the lower the cost of the job. A scissor lift is a must here! The rental cost will be saved in the time it takes fooling with scaffolds, not to mention the wear and tear on the body setting up and moving. Myself, I would print out a scale sketch and do a direct layout and paint as I went. It looks like simple straightforward thick and thin extended. This would allow for minimal moving of the lift. A pattern is going to take time to make and time to apply to the wall. I would be looking at around six hours . Using a pattern is going to add another two or more hours to the mix, no to mention, if a pattern is used, the wind WILL blow. For paint, I'd be hunting up some Ronan. Latex will work but any double coating is going to cut into the time tremendously. I'd be looking for $1500 + paint + scissor lift rental.
[ March 17, 2012, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
[ March 17, 2012, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Kelly, an effective alternative to a pounce pattern would be to use a permanent sharpie to outline the present lettering before priming and finish-coating. The sharpie will usually bleed through the primer & top coat, so it has the same effect as using a pounce pattern as a guide, but without the problems of working with a full sized pounce pattern on that big a wall. Try this out on a smaller test piece, to make certain the sharpie outline will bleed through the paint and primer you intend to use.
Edited : This advice is assuming that the wall will be repainted white or a lighter colour. The red sharpies usually have the best bleed-through characteristic, but the black ones also work. Hope this tip helps you out and speeds things along.
[ March 17, 2012, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Ken Henry ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Thanks guys, They plan to do the repaint, I'd just be doing the re lettering. I'm quoting with them providing the lift. I've received some good advice here and by phone, one thing that really made sense is to stay away from paint choices and use whatever they paint the building with as it will then be compatible and any failure will be of the primary paint job and clears me from any responsibility of adhesion. I'll recommend they bring in a professional building painter to advise on paint choices. Wind and weather are always an issue in the prairies, and a pounce pattern of that size is going to be hard to control. Another good piece of advice was to tape the edges of my pounce pattern with packing tape so they don't tear as easily. I like the idea of sharpies,but not sure haw close to the painting of the building I'd be able to come time wise. Does this still work if the sharpie is done a couple of weeks in advance? I'm not confident in my direct layout abilities on something that size.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Kelly, The sharpie trick works well if the outline is done just prior to the priming/painting. I'm not sure how well it would work if done 2 weeks or more before. The main reason this does work is that the sharpie is mostly dye based, and unfortunately dyes do tend to break down with ultra-violet exposure. If you have the time before this project begins, I'd test a red, purple & black sharpie, levve it for 2 weeks and try overpainting to see which one will provide you with the best bleed-through.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Hi again Kelly. I just thought of another time-saver that might work well for you, should you decide to take George's advice and work using a scaled sketch. Being as the wall is metal clad with tin, I'd cut 2 strips of magnetic material that are as wide as the thicker vertical strokes of the letters. I'd also cut 3 strips that corrospond to the width of the horizontal strokes of the present letters. You can use these as a guide to quickly lay out each individual letter when you place them against that tin wall. The scale sketch will indicate where you start and finish each letter, as you go along on the scissors lift. You could also glue a couple of smaller magnetic strips to the back of your scale drawing to hold it in place for you as it may be needed.
Posted by FranCisco Vargas (Member # 145) on :
Another thing you could use instead of tape is magnets to hold your patterns down
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
Will "re-paint" mean that you would have to paint, exactly, what is on the wall, on the exact same location, using the same alphabet, excuse me, same font ?
If so, why would you even think of making a pattern?......If you are making a pattern, scale drawing or a projection on the wall.....you are making a NEW sign. Therefore, you should charge for a new sign, not for a re-paint.....If you have been asked to re-paint the existent sign on the wall, it would be just that..... a re-paint job. So, if I were you I would use the sharpie to trace around the existent letters and/or graphic ( if any ) and re-paint the letters.....Stay inside the lines......and lots of luck !!
Posted by Rick Janzen (Member # 7227) on :
Hi Kelly, the only problem with using a Sharpie would be that they have to prep the surface for paint, including the area where the lettering is. That would put you in a situation that you could lose the layout. I think making a pattern would be the safest way to go. I do agree with George in regards to making a scale drawing. That way you can make the pattern in manageable sections and refer to the drawing for the overall size of the words. Just a thought.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
I agree with George on making a direct layout as corrugations & pounce patterns do not mix!
Here is the ultimate corrugated job! Used an overhead projector. Layout took less than 20 minutes! My projector projects 36' of image. On your job you could put a projector on a scaffold with wheels and move it twice and you're done! Also we used "Shur-Line" pad painters (Lowes) for this job. They work great on corrugated surfaces!
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
I agree with my paisano, Tony.....If it is a NEW sign, on corrugated metal, using the overhead projector is the best way to go, provided that the projection is made perpendicular on the sign area of the wall, and, that you use a scale drawing to make your transparency on the acetate that you will be using for the projection. This will give you more accuracy during the projection on the wall, without worrying about the corrugation, if any.....and, much less, about distortions.
By looking at your photo, I cannot tell the type of corrugation the wall has, if any at all.....It looks, to me, that the wall was fabricated with big flat metal panels.
Anyway, if it does have corrugation, or not, it would, still, be wiser to use the overhead projector or a scale drawing.......However,if it does have corrugation and you choose to use a scale drawing, and have never experienced working from a scale drawing to the wall, you will have to compensate, when drawing on the wall, around the corrugation and, especially, those letters with curves. Such as B,C,D,G,J,O,P,Q,R,S and U......You could use a time saver, that I like to use, in similar instances.............I cut one or two templates, ( cardboard ) for, only, the curved portion of those letters with curves.....and, just use the template to trace those curves. It has saved me a lot of time....For the rest of the letters ( vertical or horizontal lines ), I would use a level......Does not have to be a big one.
Again, lots of luck !!
Posted by Rick Janzen (Member # 7227) on :
From what I could see from the picture, it looks like tin panels with a brick pattern. Tony, if it were corrugated like your pictures, patterns definitely would not be the way to go (nice stuff on your site by the way). Not sure why someone would want to go through all the trouble of trying to project a sign 12' off the ground, moving the scaffold, lining it up with no distortion, and dealing with the elements( wind shake and stuff) not to mention running power or needing a generator. Laying it out by hand is the most straight forward way to go, and using guides as suggested, if your not comfortable with curves and such. But I think patterns made in small manageable sections seems to make sense also. Like everything in life, there's always a number of options to get the same thing done. I think it comes down to what the person doing the job is most comfortable with.
[ March 17, 2012, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Rick Janzen ]
Posted by Jerry Starpoli (Member # 1559) on :
I always used an indelible pencil before priming. It will bleed through.
Posted by Jerry Starpoli (Member # 1559) on :
I always used an indelible pencil before priming. It will bleed through.and I certainly would recommend priming and then Ronan Bulletin color. But what do I know, only having done this for 50 some years. Never got the feel of latex paints.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
The last big wall job I did, I used a scale sketch, but it wasn't a re-do. The reason I suggested patterns is because the letters are 2' tall, which is manageable. And because different sign painters imparted their own little variations to the letters. A pattern, even though it has some hassles, would record the exact lettering that was there before. Then you take pics, make a web page based on the history of it, as well as the sign benefits. Keywords and description include things like: historic, town name, wall sign, etc...Text content describes how accurate you were, and the traditional methods you employed. Nowadays we're not just makers of signs, but reporters, marketers, and quasi tech people.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Obviously, the indelible pencil or pen is the best way by far...IF you can be sure it will work. If somebody else is painting the wall first, well, thee needeth hope that Murphy doth not lurk nearby.
[ March 17, 2012, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
I would take direct photos of the building and create a vector drawing of the entire sign and then cut the individual letters out of something like bristol board which you can quickly outline around and paint one by one using the scale drawing you did in the first place as a guide for spacing... you only need one cutout of each letter providing they are all the same size.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
I used to use cardboard, but later switched to using cut-out corro, for sample curves, & thick & thin strokes to speed up layout from a scale drawing, once you know the start (& maybe end) points of each letter.
A, F, H, I, N etc are easy. A cutout O or G, S & P will help for many others.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
another good point would be to tell whoever is painting the wall to stay off the letters and you will cut them in after you replicate whats up there. a little extra work but at least cutting in background color would clean up some letters just in case
Posted by Ricardo Davila (Member # 3854) on :
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