[ November 03, 2011, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
stop expecting perfection......
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Joe, I'm looking to hire two people. And while mediocrity and an inability to follow instructions is apparently acceptable to you, it isn't for me.
If you have nothing positive to contribute to what was suppose to be a discussion about business, I'd rather you not respond. Thanks.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Steve Jobs expected perfection, the idiot... and all it did for Apple was make it the 2nd most valuable corporation in the WORLD. hehehe )))))))))))))))
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I Tell you Glenn as you know it's so hard to find Great Employees, but we have to at least try... I had one employee leave me after 12 years in June and it set us back... I went through 3 employees trying to replace him before settling on the fourth one,, although he had training in computers and Web Design I needed someone on the tables putting the signs together, which he had no experience with. But we trained him and productivity increased dramatically, and he takes direction very well...So it is possible to get good employees... I'd like to have another one like him. Good Luck!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Thanks Todd.
Neil, you know exactly how I feel. Its driving me nuts.
In the past week, I've had 3 applications. Not one of them were qualified even though they had college degrees in Graphic Design.
As an experiment, I stole some job application rules from Dan Antonelli's website. Especially the ones about not calling and what fonts not to use in their resume and portfolio. (check is in the mail, Dan)
Every one of them called and every one of them used Arial. One actually had Brush Script in his portfolio header. I'm not kidding. It was some of the most boring and uninspiring stuff I had ever seen.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Did you get any resumes with Comic Sans? That would be worth framing.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Hehehe....not yet.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I should add that I'm taking Dan's advice about hiring people better than myself to heart. I'm starting my 2012 New Years Resolution a bit early. I'm going to make 2012 the best year ever even if it kills everyone else.
[ November 03, 2011, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
sorry glenn for your obsession. also most people who would be close to your expectations or perfection.......more then likly are ALREADY EMPLOYED, or SELF EMPLOYED, and to have 3 people as perfect as you in the same building.....aint gona work)))))
[ November 04, 2011, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Pribish, you are such a jerk. STFU, putz.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I just came back from a client Yesterday, they are strictly a design and Idea agency.. "The Idea Factory" They are unique, in their board room is a Pool Table where they sometimes go to just relax or to Brainstorm, they are set up like a rolex watch, and they Hire the best people that are out there, these 2 guys started just after I did, they now have about 20 people working there, and do Millions a year in sales.. Just imagine no Materials per say, just Ideas.....and Logos, Brand Marketing...I admire them, one of the partners when he finished doing Graphic art back in the early 80"s came to me looking for work... I as Hand Painting at the time, lettering, Air Brushing, anyway he showed me his portfolio, it looked good, then I handed him a quill, he tried and tried, I took the quill from him and told him to keep practicing.. he tells this story to me and others all the time.. but just look at him now... "Perfection does work and it can work well when everyone is on the same page... I wish I could find a couple of perfectionists myself...
[ November 04, 2011, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
If Glenn's like me, when someone tells him it 'ain't gonna work'..... is when he will become even more determined to attain his goal - whatever it is.
If Dan Sawatsky, or Dan Antonelli took the attitude that striving for perfection in craft, or surrounding themselves with talented employees not attainable - I wonder where they would be now? Posted by Keith Jenicek (Member # 11121) on :
So...that makes 4 perfect people in the same building! Never thought it possible. WOW!
Glen, I think you are on the right track by trying to surround yourself with people "better" than you. That is, better in certain areas. Find a person's talent, (which they probably enjoy), and let them develop it within your business. It may be difficult for some of us perfectionists to loose some of the control, (at least I speak for myself), and the student may become the teacher...but isn't that they way it is supposed to be?
All the best!!
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I have no trouble finding good people to work for me. I don't look in the normal places however.
I believe people surround themselves and associate with people who are a lot like themselves. When a good person comes to me I encourage them to bring their friends by if they are looking for a job. When I interview I don't as much look for skills as attitude. I like to hire motivated people who have definite goals in their life. I know they will move on before long when the right time and opportunity comes along. I hire a lot of young people who are going to school or working hard to earn money to do this.
Two of my current employees are working their way through university instead of borrowing money to do so. this means they will be in school a few years longer. I have to be flexible so they can work around their school times. I am providing a way for them to achieve their dreams and they in return are enabling my dreams by working for me. It's win - win.
When it comes time for them to leave I know they are moving on to something that will make them even happier and I am glad for them.
-grampa dan
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Great thoughts Dan... and my apologies; I misspelled your last name in the post above. :-)
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
I am losing Jim to retirement at the end of this year (he is turning 75 and just decided it was time to pack it in) We started working together almost 19 years ago at another company- we worked for about 7 years before I left there and started my own company. He came knocking on my door in 2002 and has been here ever since.
It will be very difficult to find anyone to replace him, because I haven't been able to find anyone with his work ethic. He shows up like clockwork at 7:35am (we start at 8) he takes lunch at 11:59 and is back working at 12:59- starts shutting things down at 4:55 and is leaving the shop at 5:01. He is NEVER late, NEVER misses a day (I can count maybe 6 sick days in the 19 years that I have known him) He works very steady, solves problems and is reliable to get the job done- he works late if I ask him, but usually don't have to put in extra hours because he finishes the jobs during work hours.
Over the years I have settled for less from some other employees and in the end it really wasn't worth the hassle to keep them around.
I'm with you, Glenn- make sure you hire somebody good...
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
The next time I try to get some help around here, I could care less about a portfolio. Don't even bring it in. I just wanna see some product being produced if I ask for it. Pages full of frilly colorful crap I could care less about. They show me that stuff and then turns out they don't really know $$$t from shinola.
I also don't wanna hear any whining about how much better it would be if I had a Macintosh and Illustrator. If you can use a mac, coreldraw should be an absolute breeze. Vectors are vectors. We're just cutting vinyl here, people. You wanna use yer mac? Buy a laptop and bring it with you. Corel can read AI files no problem. But don't EVER tell me there is some miraculous better way of doing things that is so perfect you just THINK about what you want and it happens. I find no matter what system you use, that just ain't that case!
I only expect two things from an employee. Be at least as smart as me (and I am NO genius so this part should be easy), and every now and then show enough insight to teach me something I don't know.
Is that too much to ask for?
I spent a ton of wasted effort on one so-called gifted individual who in the end could not operate corel draw well enough to even cut his own name on the vinyl cutter. The last guy spent hours on end talking about his abilities but never actually produced a single, usable ANYTHING. Both were ultimately sent packing (I was very, VERY nice about it) and both are now MAD AT ME FOR BEING A JERK!!!!
sheeeeshshhhh
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I remember the drill back B.C. when you went into a sign shop looking for work. They gave you an 18x24 blank, some copy that was usually For Sale by owner ( actual phone number) point you towards the easel and see how well you performed.
I can remember some guy blowing through town back in the early eighties, supposedly from Arizona. He had this portfolio of really fine looking sign work. His truck was all lettered up and looked like crap. I'm sure somebody out west is still wondering why his portfolio wasn't still on the table at the end of that one Letterhead meet.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Concerning the portfolio, it depends on what you're looking for. For me it isn't so much what was in the portfolio, but rather the effort put into creating the portfolio. Make sense?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Yes, Glenn... That makes perfect sense.
I get what Michael is talking about, too. Don't tell em... show me.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
For all of those looking for perfection in an employee...
Sorry!!!
I am retired!!!
Actually I was the worst employee anyone would want, but I was MY best employee!!! LOL
Just a short opinion..a perfect employee is not one who does perfect work, (Perfection is not possible, even for we egotistical folks) but one who earns YOU, the employer a few bux profit.
(just my humble opinion)
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Dave,
I hear ya, man!!! But I was a pretty good employee and did my best to produce decent, readable layouts minus any craziness.
My biggest problem was I couldn't keep my mouth shut. When the boss was ripping into everyone, that idiot standing there fighting back was ME!
Guess who always got fired?
Posted by Mike Faig (Member # 6104) on :
In the restaurant business, when hiring a chef, you give them a bag of groceries and tell them to make dinner. Does that not apply to graphics?
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike Faig: In the restaurant business, when hiring a chef, you give them a bag of groceries and tell them to make dinner. Does that not apply to graphics?
Come on Mike, how is giving a sign person groceries and having them make you a dinner indicative of any graphics talent?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
LOL!
Trust me, there will be a test. Someone with strong illustration abilities, proficient in Photoshop, Illustrator (Corel Draw), Dreamweaver (including jQuery, Flash & some PHP)is what I'm looking for.
So far, contacting the local college has been a bust. ECU and Johnston Community College have strong Art/Graphic Design programs so they are next.
Another challenge I have is in determining fair compensation - salary, 401s, insurance and so on.
My goal is to turn the shop into something of an agency with its own in-house manufacturing facility. To do it, I plan on hiring at least 3 people before the end of next year. I need to spend my time growing and managing the business rather than digging 4ft. deep footings like I was today.
[ November 07, 2011, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
maybe with graphic talent & bag of groceries, he could make a display of the FOOD PYRAMID???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA glenn, have you ever heard of this place? check and see if they have what you are looking for. http://www.ringling.edu/
[ November 07, 2011, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
quote:Someone with strong illustration abilities, proficient in Photoshop, Illustrator (Corel Draw), Dreamweaver (including jQuery, Flash & some PHP)is what I'm looking for.
WOW Glenn, Pretty high expectations, in my humble opinion.
Best of luck finding THAT person.
quote:Another challenge I have is in determining fair compensation - salary, 401s, insurance and so on.
Yep!!!! You have your work cut out for yourself in that aspect too!
quote:I need to spend my time growing and managing the business rather than digging 4ft. deep footings like I was today.
From long ago posts and even more recent posts, I have to wonder why the shop is still located in a flood prone location??? (I know that the above quote was a reference to sign post footings)
I am not trying to be nasty, but I have to wonder? Why bother "growing" a business whose home and equipment will be underwater again in a year or two?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Dave, one of the reasons for growing the business is so that we can move.
Yeah, its going to be hard but not impossible to find the right person. I had one earlier this year sans the illustration capability. But what I'm not going to do is what we've done in the past which has been to hire a warm body and hope they learn enough without jumping ship 12 months later to another sign shop.
Since the day after the first flood, the property became unsaleable. There are three properties down the street from us that have been for sale since Hurricane Floyd (Sept. 1999). Plain and simple, we're stuck with the property and don't have the funds necessary to move even if a suitable property were available. We just have to make do with what we have for now.
The property had been there since the 1930's and had never flooded until Floyd in 1999. The subsequent flooding was due to construction up stream and the growing number of hard surfaces (asphalt parking lots and building roofs) and additional water runoff not having anywhere else to go. The City has been addressing it. Things are better. Not perfect but better. Its been a while since the waterway has come close to cresting. In the last hurricane back in August, the waterway barely became half full. So something is working. It used be that all it took was a hard rain for the waterway to crest.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
BTW, don't try to dig 4ft. deep footings by hand while on Oxycodone and Phenergan.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Glenn...Thank you for taking my reply in the spirit that I intended.
Best of luck in finding a qualified, reliable and hopefully loyal employee. Renumeration and benefits will, I am sure, be instrumental.
Thanks for the explanation about the flooding situation, and hopefully, solution.
What the heck are "Oxycodone and Phenergan" though???
As far as digging 4' footings by hand.....I would never have done that 35 years ago!!!
Keep on trucking Glenn!!! Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
No worries. I've had those same questions from a lot of folks over the years.
I've been dealing with a kidney stone since Oct. 17th. The doctor gave me Oxycodone for the pain when it flare's up. The Phenergan is for nausea caused by meds for pain, inflamation and infection prevention; and, for the violent vomiting caused by the pain.
It all just makes it hard to think clearly. I didn't realize I was digging the second footing in the wrong place until I was about halfway down. If it weren't for my helper pointing my mistake out to me, I would have dug the full 4ft.
Posted by Vance Galliher (Member # 581) on :
....hahaaaa, well I would a least keep that helper around Glenn !
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Steve is one of the best hires I've ever had. He ran his own shop for 10 years before joining us and knows what it takes to keep things running. I don't know what I would do without him.
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
Hey- it's not impossible to get someone with those qualifications (or at least most of them- I personally have no desire to learn JQuery or any other coding, that's not my thing and I have no desire to be a coder- but the other stuff, I would be spot on...)
I did 2 interviews earlier this year and I was more than qualified for the skills, but they both involved unrealistic commutes- sometimes they just don't fall into place.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Ya know, have you considered someone who is wheelchair bound? I always thought that'd be a good job for a person like that. He/She would be your design person. Design, answer calls, deal directly with walk in customers.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Absolutely! We're actually already set for anyone in a wheelchair.
Before NAFTA, we were doing a lot of contract screen printing. We worked with an organization called Diversified Opportunities to employ persons with physical disabilities. It worked out great.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I use to teach a sign class in a local college and hired two students over the years. They knew very little but showed me enough enthusiasm to prove they were willing to learn.
And then there's Dan that hired me with NO power tool experience and that's what I pretty much did for him.
Willingness can go further than being fully trained in many cases.
Now I have to find Dan A's article.. I tend to use arial lots... gotta find out what that REALLY makes me! LOL
Posted by Jake Lyman (Member # 3280) on :
Doug, If somehow you find 2 of the people you are looking for and only need one give me a call.
It really is hard to find the right person these days I would think that it would be easy with the unemployment numbers but all the people that really want to work are doing something so it seems whats left are the people who really want to get paid, thats all. A friend of mine lost his job a year ago he worked for me part time till he found a job, it wasn't what he wanted but it was a job at the time that he was qualified for, so he kept looking and found something better and is now a supervisor in what he wanted to do
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Probably the best employee I ever had was someone who had been an owner of another shop. He saw things from my perspective much better than anyone who'd never been in an ownership position. Whenever I'd be handling some sticky problem, he'd say: "This is why I'm working for you!"
Posted by Rodger MacMunn (Member # 4316) on :
Glen, please don't take this the wrong way.... just an observation.
Every January, when it's -35* & slow, I start looking in the classifieds. Deep down, I KNOW that spring will come & I'll be busier than a one-armed banjo-picker with the crotch crickets, but I still look. Apparently, I ain't qualified for nothin'.
I have driven over 4,000,000km mostly in things that bend in the middle, I've logged, I've sandblasted &/or carved close to 1000 signs, painted a few murals with Keim, carved more than a few birds, can blunder my way through Corel X3, Aspire, Mach3 & ScanVec , lay ceramic tile & frame a house .......... but I still have never seen a job listed that I have the qualifications for. As I said, just an observation.....
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Glenn,
Good luck. I'm afraid my need to hire someone is going to come sooner than I'd like & I'm terrified of the process. Be sure to keep us up on your progress & anything you learn along the way.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
LOL Roger! I understand. Trust me.
Kissy, it is scary. Its a lot of responsibility that few get to appreciate. I never really understood the pressure when I worked for other people.
Just an update. So far there have been no other responses. I started running an ad in the local paper for this week just to see what would happen.
Not one response. In the help wanted section, we were one of only four companies advertising for help.
Posted by Rodger MacMunn (Member # 4316) on :
Glenn, I no longer have or want employees but over the years I've probably had 50 or so. Mostly mediocre, with the exception of 4 VERY good & about the same amount of bad ones ... one on whom was a *&(@# thief. I've had my best luck hiring someone who was absolutely amazing at just one of the job skills I requested, with a willingness to learn. My wife likes employees with lots of energy. The last one we hired was just a "bundle of energy" ..... always doing something. It took 2 people watching to keep her from doing things wrong.
Posted by John Byrd (Member # 825) on :
Hmmm... do the creative stuff and let someone else be responsible for customers, rent, power bill...quite tempting Glenn.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Glenn, the process takes time. As you grow, you can focus on specific niches (like a dedicated illustrator, interface designer, front-end coder, art director, etc). But in the beginning, its harder because you need that new ONE person to wear a lot of hats.
The biggest predictor of talent is passion. Find someone obsessed with the creative end, and the rest usually fall in.
It's a mistake to assume that people with that much talent would be doing it themselves. Not everyone is cut out for self employment.
The sole aim is to get the best people for the tasks at hand which then leave you with the tasks you are best suited for. It takes time.
It's also important to have a nice environment for them. Our new space is pretty cool. I'd say we're 30 grand easy into office space & furniture expenses, coffee makers, and of course popcorn machines, neon, surfboards, leather couches and bean bag chairs. But its cool for them, cool for clients. Its a place they want to work at. Environment plays a big role in attracting talent, as does the work the agency is putting out.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Dan does what I've always thought a workplace environment should be like... if it's fun to be in with nice furnishings, personal desks and nice chairs, etc... that makes a big different on attitudes.
Who wants to work in a rathole with a desk missing part of the molding and a chair with a piece of duct tape on it? hehe.... Dan would be my kind of boss hands down.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I dunno. I heard Dan's employees tried to put him into the wall at a race track.
[ November 23, 2011, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
There are people willing to learn. I once heard a Master Signpainter say: All I needed was my 2 Boxes to make a living: 1 for my Brushes and the other for Supplies. Showing others how to Master them is another story. To Pin-Stripe is pretty easy. To Letter is somewhat involved. To Gold-Leaf is to Learn our Craft. Teach and they will learn.
Posted by Richard Heller (Member # 2443) on :
I've just wanted to throw this out there for a while and this seems like the best thread for it.
I work at an Automotive Vocational College where we have a Custom Paint & Graphics program. It is only twelve weeks and is mostly a pinstriping and airbrush course witha week spent on applying vinyl and wraps. We have tossed around the idea of starting a Sign Making School here. I have another fellow who wrote the curriculum for the Sign Program at the Job Corps. He is now retired and interested in looking into this.
If we were to pursue this, I would appreciate input from all of you on the Bullboard on what kinds of things you would like to see us include in the program. I have a background as a hand lettering/carving sign painter who learned technology in the field, and have been the layout/vinyl cutter, commercial fabricator, installer and I run large format printers and CNC machines. The other gentleman is an electric sign fabricator who has some knowledge of the vinyl machines (cutters and printers)
Just looking for ideas-this could end up being a pool of talent for the industry as our students already come from all over the U.S.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
