It happens to all of us, I stopped by a business that had removed their 2 acrylic sign faces from their existing sign. Building being repainted, new business obviously going in. I met briefly with the owners who told me they already had someone who had quoted them $400 (I don't remember the exact price) for two color on the existing panels, no installation. I asked if I could provide them a design and quote, mentioned other clients on main street who I had done work for. The liked my work and wanted me to provide a quote, I told them the price will probably not beat the other bid but I offer quality design and product. Since me last stolen design ordeal (still working on collecting with that one I didn't have the strong wording I have now and I am grateful my older brother is an attorney) Anyway - I had reworked the wording in my quote forms to read: "This is an original unpublished design created by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any design and/or lettering created for this project are the intellectual property of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks and remain the copyright protected property of the same. They are presented for the sole purpose of customer consideration and approval in connection with a project being planned for you by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks only. They are not to be shown outside of your organization or used in conjunction with the obtaining of other competitive bids. They may NOT be reproduced in any medium for any purpose without the expressed written permission of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any infringement of this drawing will be vigorously pursued to the fullest extent of legal remedy. Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks will be reimbursed $1000.00, for the time and effort in the research and design of this project, for each occurrence of infringement.
What a surprise (NOT) to find my design and colors scheme and lettering on the new signs! The only font they did not copy was LHF Antique because I am sure the scumbag that did it only carries stock fonts like Helvetica and Times and uses all capital brush script.
I fired off a letter, copy of quote with highlighted legal text and a bill today.
more later
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Quotes are free, designs are not.
Makes life simpler.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
That's awesome.
Wait a minute ... I just thought of an incredible new way to make money in the sign business....
Go around giving real-world quotes for killer sign-designs and then sue for (let's see ... we need a bigger number here) $10,000 when they steal yer idea.
Get ready to retire, Jeff. You've created an industry!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Oregon..
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
It ain't just Oregon, Joey.
Jeff, it seems you have them by the short 'n curlies - don't let go and don't settle for less than the $1000. Some people only learn from a kick in the wallet.......
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I hope ya nail em... can you post a picture of the competitors sign next to your design - I'm sure we'd all like to see it.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
The outcome of this might be interesting. Before you post a picture of the competitors design make sure it is legal to do so - they might just sue you back..... Did you send a copy of the letter to the client or the other sign company - maybe you can double dip. "for each infringement" - seems to me both the client and the other sign company "infringed"
[ September 12, 2011, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
Hmm, How to find out who did the sign, that is the problem. I guess I could have a friend (hey Vance!) call them and say "hey I really like your sign, who did it?
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
Jeff I wish I knew earlier I was in Eugene for 8 days.. I would have picked Vance up and we could have acted like a team nad had some fun
Posted by Vance Galliher (Member # 581) on :
jeff, i could have done that when you were here today. let me know and i'll give them a ring..........i always call and ask when i see a nice sign!..that's how i met you years ago jeff. in fact that's how you met me michael. i guess you were in town to visit your son ?.....and some good oregon weather. jeff send me the drawing/and a phone # and i'll give him a call tomorrow
[ September 13, 2011, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Vance Galliher ]
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
sounds like a plan.
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
yes Vance..we visited my son...he got married on Saturday we did a drift boat trip on the Mckinzie sunday I called you Jeff..last visit..no answer I will look you up next time.... you folks in Oregon sure do have some great things to see
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
Before you post a picture of the competitors design make sure it is legal to do so - they might just sue you back ____________________________________________________
why could someone sue for posting a picture of a sign? Never heard this one
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
quote:Originally posted by bruce ward:
why could someone sue for posting a picture of a sign? Never heard this one
well, copyright law generally does not protect signs but that doesn't stop sign makers from threatening each other, so hey.. why not?
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
When you get tired of lawyers, maiing letters and the whole drama of it all. Just charge for design, and get back to business.
I made all those same mistakes years ago. It's tiring. Charge up front and then if you don't make the sign, who cares. At least you were paid for your design.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
My question is why would you spend the extra time and effort doing a design in an attempt to land a $400 job? I'm certain your design really looked great but all these folks are looking at is the bottom line. I'd also be willing to bet the other guy never supplied a design just a quote. I basically got out of the sign business because it's basically cost driven these days.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hahahaha.... suing someone for posting a picture of a sign? um.... ok. :-)
Let's at least see your sign design so we know what we're talking about...
Bob's comments got me wondering... do you typically charge by the hour for design?
What's a standard fee?
And how are design charges typically received by the customer?
I must admit, I am guilty of not charging for my design up front in most cases - but do include it into the job price.
I don't typically design on 'speculation'.... I have to know that I am doing the job... but have on a rare occasion gotten burned by the customer just plain not doing a sign at all.
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
I don't want to hijack Jeff's post, but how do those of you who charge for design up front present that to the customer? I had a back-and-forth email discussion with Carol Kauffman last week about this very subject. She's trying to nail down a juicy job, but after submitting several designs, the customer went elsewhere. It was a project she wanted enough to do free artwork, but ended up wasting her time. Even with a stellar reputation and an impressive portfolio, how do you convince a customer to pay for something he may choose not to use?
The response I'm looking for is what you literally say to the customer - I've tried several methods, none of which seem to work for me. Every case is different, but what is the general dialog?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
your answer has to do with the marketing system you install. Follow the system and there will be reduced speculation.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
"I don't typically design on 'speculation'.... I have to know that I am doing the job"
Todd's comment works well here, very well. If they use the line "I want to see what it's going to look like" I tell them I will gladly do a few renderings after I recieve a deposit and leave it at that. If they aren't willing to sign on after checking your reputation and portfolio, they probably are just going to waste your time and it doesn't seem to matter if it's a complex job in the thousands or a set of truck doors. Did Frank Sinatra have to audition for singing gigs when he was in his sixties?
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
A long time ago, a customer asked me how much to do a sign. She sent me the artwork, produced by Balanti's Signs, and I replyed to her showing her the tag line a the bottom of Balanti's artwrok about their owning the artwork and other legal stuff like that. Never heard from her after that. I think she was embarressed afer that one.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Todd,
I usually have a good idea how long it will take. Depending on the job. And I charge accordingly. It's more about getting the customer to commit to the design with a deposit. Once a customer is invested so to speak, they are less likely to walk away and go to another shop with your design.
It's not always a gaurantee, but at least you have been paid for your design time.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Thank you George! Your expansion of my tact was very well articulated. I think qualifying them during the initial encounter by seeing if they are prepared to place a deposit prior to you doing any work will let you know if they are ready to dance or just looking for free lessons. :-)
If they balk at putting a deposit down after George's 'statement'.... then that can be followed up with, "Well, I'm sorry, but my time and talents are very valuable and I cannot expend either on speculation... if you want to seriously pursue this, then I will require a deposit before I put a lot of work into design - OR, if you prefer, you can pay for the design up-front."
Something to that effect?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Bob - can you give us an example of how this conversation goes in your shop? I'd like to see how you approach this verbally. I'll be the customer:
Me: I'm looking at the possibility of getting a sign made, but don't know exactly what I want. I have some rough ideas but wondered if you could whip up a couple sketches for me to look at?
You: (fill in the blank)
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
Thanks for all the input. It is true that I don't want to spend any extra time on this, just sent them a bill and want to get paid for the time I put into the design. In regards to the quote process, I usually do not design on speculation either. It is at times when you are hungry for work (as I was a month ago) I do present a quality concept for a client because the majority of times it is the design that sells my work and lands me the job. (Also it wasn't a $400 job, it was more like a $1,000 job and when you need work. It is the rare occasion that you get what I call "cheapskate" clients that decide they like your design but don't want to pay your prices and as Alicia pointed out many times overlook the legal tagline at the bottom of your artwork.
There are many clients in our area that don't see the value of a quality designed sign by the evidence of the majority of work out there.
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
It doesn't irritate me that I didn't get the job, what makes me made is that they basically stole my design. The reason they got a cheaper price is because they get what they pay for - someone with a plotter that can cut vinyl and copy artwork. I just want to get paid and I think I will do as Kelly suggested and send a bill to the company who copied the art also.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Todd,
I would let you look through the portfolio or samples on my wall, to see if there is something that I had already done that will spark an idea in what you might want. I would also ask you questions, like is it for a business or personal. If it for a business, I would ask what kind of business is it, do you already have any marketing material you are using, to get a feel for any consistancy already in place for marketing. Do you have a logo? What type of clientel to you market to?
Based on the feedback I get, I can usually figure out what the job will entail for design time. Then I would politely tell you that to do a design for you, the cost would be "X" and to get started I would need a deposit.
[ September 13, 2011, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Jeff,
I sometimes have customers who bring in photocopies of copyrighted artwork that have been crudely edited to cover up the copyright stipulations so that I have no clue where the design came from.
Maybe this other shop doesn't know what the deal is? Probably they do, but I'm just sayin'....
Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
I run into this with my custom airbrush work. People want to see what it's going to look like before we start so I offer a photoshop rendering for $100. The $100 is to be paid up front but if they use me i will count that $100 in the total cost. If they use someone else... I get my $100. I also have some verbiage that states if they take my design and have someone else do it they owe me $1000. The up front $100 deposit seems to weed out the people who aren't serious and once they spend that $100 they are less likely to back out.
I don't work for free......anymore. I learned my lessons.
Posted by Joe Sciury (Member # 4653) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sonny Franks: She's trying to nail down a juicy job, but after submitting several designs, the customer went elsewhere. It was a project she wanted enough to do free artwork, but ended up wasting her time.
and this exactly why as "professionals" we should not be doing this. 99% of the time that is exactly what will happen because we don't want to give our design away so our estimate is usually higher than the bottom dwellers, in the hopes we'll land the job based on our superb design.
What you're forgetting is the potential customer asking for free work up front is a window shopping, window licker that cares only about cost, not quality, not your time or if your design is more effective.
This profession will always struggle until we as professionals start acting like it....Quit working for free!
We always handle this by stating we'll be more than happy to work with them on a design that meets their approval and needs, once we have a signed PO.
Doing it this way has never required more than 2-3 "changes" to the "original design" before getting approval and many times they don't want anything changed.....After all we're the one's with the talent and education it shouldn't be that difficult to impress or persuade them why the design is effective and get the go ahead.
Also for the love of God don't give them 5 concepts. All you're doing is confusing them and creating a major headache for yourself!
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
General dialog is\ I call it the the 4P's
(has nothing to do with product, place,price )
This is different. pivot profile praise prompt. It has a jillion other names. But it is the basic premise for any marketing sales script.
When they ask a question you have to pivot to a different thought line. You must find out why they need a sign? No, what they think they need it for.. But the real reason they need a sign. They need that sign because they want to take honey on a world cruise.
Often we can tell if someone is really interested or just window shopping.
then profile them to find out their needs. You are actually finding what motivates them about their business.
Once you find out why they want that sign you build on that. Talk to that need and nothing else. Build it up until they feel the anxiety. I mean make it so they cannot sleep at night anxiety. You can measure this and can charge the amount according to their anxiety level.
Praise. This is where you tell them,,, This sign shop is the first one with the qualifications to understand that anxiety need. We are obviously the one that can address it and reduce the stress in their life.
Mr. client don't you agree that we found your need that we are the one to address it?
Imply the other shops merely addressed the cost factor and didn't really care about the client.
As soon as they say "yes I agree" then prompt them for a token of commitment. (deposit) If they object fine.. Tell them they paid a activation fee or some other amount to get their cell phone and a cell costs them a monthly fee. So why wouldn't they pay to get a product that will address their needs and earn them money?
Obviously this is not used for the yard sign crowd. They just want cheap.
It is for the HIGH end crowd. Then you always market to those least affected by the economic problems.
Posted by Kevin W. Betz (Member # 4133) on :
I tell the customer that I am like a Bank, but better. My job is to make you money with my Signs,Designs,etc. Although I cannot please everyone with my Design, my job is to get people to contact you. What happens after that is up to you.
As for a sketch, I will show them a Layout to give them my idea, usally 1/2 hr design time. If they ask for a copy to take to their wife or partner, I explain I cannot, but you are more than welcome to bring them here to see it. I have used some Designs for jobs that I did not get on other Jobs I did get. I look at it like practice.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Oooops double post..
[ September 13, 2011, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: Hahahaha.... suing someone for posting a picture of a sign? um.... ok. :-)
quote: Legal Pitfalls in Taking or Using Photographs of Copyright Material, Trademarks and People
SECTION 1.2 Will the photograph contain an object that is protected by copyright? Be warned: Copyright law protects a wide range of different types of material. Examples of copyright works that are routinely reproduced in photographs are:
SECTION 1.2 LIST ITEM #5 Advertisements, commercial prints, billboards and labels
SECTION 1.5 Will you do something that actually constitutes an act which the copyright owner has the exclusive right to make?
SECTION 1.5 LIST ITEM #4 Photographing someone’s work and then displaying the photo to the public (e.g., exhibiting the photo in a gallery, supplying copies to the public in postcard form, putting it on a website, sending it to customers via e-mail, etc.).
Seems like it could be an issue.... particularily if you are dealing with someone you are trying to accuse of copyright infringement, especially if lawyers get involved.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
You mean kinda like this? Careful... I hear the sirens in the distance. :-)
LOL @ Todd Yep that would be grounds for a suit. Before long everyone will have to carry a sheet with them so they can drape it behind them in public when they take pics as to not get anythng behind them
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
In some situations you my find the On-site quick sketch to be helpful in obtaining that deposit up front, when they simply must see something. 5-6 minutes within the sales call is all that it takes. Hey, why not you are already there? It will also clarify a few issues for you before you go to the computer for the real sketch for approval. Understand that you are unprotected anytime you create a sketch without a deposit. We've all done it trying to prove just how helpful we'll be if they would only choose us for the project. We simply must prove we are serious about our work by being willing to walk away.
Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
Ohhhhh...give Todd points on that last post...nice one...however I would be careful if I were you...Kelly might have grounds for a law suit based on the capricious "Hahahahah" directed her way from your prior post.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
*Sigh* My intent was not to ruffle anyones feathers, but to caution Jeff about providing his opposition with ammunition. There are a lot of sign makers who read this site without posting, it's not unforseeable that one of them might be involved with or be friends with the company who made the sign. Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I agree with Kelly. I would be tempted to publish it online too, but it would be wise to give the customer reasonable opportunity to make amends first.
Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sonny Franks: The response I'm looking for is what you literally say to the customer - I've tried several methods, none of which seem to work for me. Every case is different, but what is the general dialog?
Here is how we handle it. I've got this printed out with our prices.
I basically walk the potential client through it. By walking them through this short guide, I remember all the things I need to make sure to tell them, before they even hire us, so that there is no confusion after the job is started. Other than that it's half down for logo work or signs over a certain price.
I feel like this guide is a good way to communicate what the client is getting at our shop. It is helpful in up selling logo work too, by showing clients the difference between designs that WE us on their signs and designs that are meant to be used as logos. A lot of times when they realize (before we even get the job) that we won't just email their sign layout in vector format, they will instead want to invest in a logo from the get go, which we approach a little differently when designing anyway... and of course they get the disk with the art files.
Also, whether or not you price your designs by the hour, This communicates to the client what level of design is worth what. When they can physically see an example of a $XX design VS a $XXXX design, it helps them understand the value of different designs. From there, you could even break it down to: minimal = 1 Unique Concept and 2 Revisions medium = 2 Unique Concepts and 4 Revisions etc.....
May not work for everyone, but it works well for us.
Edited for spealing
[ September 14, 2011, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
The Diaz gang nails it again - thanks Joe.
btw, that looks like a great future article for SignCraft magazine......
Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
Like Sonny said...this would make a great SignCraft article...now if you guys would work up something as easily understood on the meaning of life.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Thanks Bob - good info people.. am still curious what Jeff's sign looked like...
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
Here is a copy of the letter I sent:
"Imagine my surprise when I saw your new signs with my design on them. I am glad you like my design, but if you are going to use my design I am entitled to be paid for it. Attached to the quote I provided for you is the legal documentation regarding intellectual property.
“This is an original unpublished design created by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any design and/or lettering created for this project are the intellectual property of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks and remain the copyright protected property of the same. They are presented for the sole purpose of customer consideration and approval in connection with a project being planned for you by Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks only. They are not to be shown outside of your organization or used in conjunction with the obtaining of other competitive bids. They may NOT be reproduced in any medium for any purpose without the expressed written permission of Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks. Any infringement of this drawing will be vigorously pursued to the fullest extent of legal remedy. Jeff Wisdom/Oregon Signworks will be reimbursed $1000.00, for the time and effort in the research and design of this project, for each occurrence of infringement.”
I would be willing to settle for my design fee of $150.00 which is due within 15 days from this letter. If you choose not to pay I will need to take legal action."
I did receive a concerned call from the client wanting to avoid legal action. I asked how the design I created ended up on the sign. She acted sincerely innocent and also confused that this was considered "stealing" She pleaded that she was just starting out and couldn't afford legal action (isn't that admitting to guilt?) Vance secured the name of the company who did the work and I left a message with him. He called back assured me he no idea it was designed by me, they had apparently separated my design from the quote and taken it to him and told him to reproduce it. I will keep working on this collection along with another one from earlier this year.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
only $150 ??? wow you are a very generous person. I wish I had your patience.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
The $150 probably covers your design time so that is a good settlement, especially if client is eager to pay it and avoid any legal hassles. Even going to small claims or just sitting in the judges chamber getting the issue resolved is a complete waste of everyone's time.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
"for each infringement" - seems to me both the client and the other sign company "infringed"![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)