I am afraid to use 1 shot anymore since they changed the formula a few years ago. It just doesn't hold up outside and fades in a couple of years. I've had several signs chalk up and fade within 2 years now.
What oil-based paint works better? I've tried the acrylic enamel from Porter Paints and can't get a very smooth, slick finish like oil based paints. I've used Flotrol with the acrylics and it didn't help.
Any suggestions? I need to paint two Alupanel boards bright red and it will be 3' x 16' and another panel that is 4' x 10'.
What should I use nowadays?
Sign-cerely, Steve
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Would Ronan fare any better?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I'll be spraying an acrylic urethane in the next week or two, to get a nice red on some large 3" thick beveled HDU. It is a 3 part deal with color, catalyst & reducer. I will be using an HVLP gun. Don't let the word "acrylic" fool you though... it's some nasty toxic stuff...
On a related topic, I still have a lot of 1-shot that is mostly 4 years old, or older... would some of this be better than today's paint that I hear so much bad reports about? Is there anything on the label I can look for to help answer that?
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
I used some SW Metalatex latex on a 8x8' MDO sign five years ago. It was a semi flat finish and rolled it on (three coats) in cooler 55 degree weather under cloud cover. It turned out quite smooth. After letting it set up a couple of days, I went back with a white latex exterior SW Superpaint, using hand masked and taped letters. I just looked at it on Monday. The north facing side looks just like when I finished it. The south side in full sun looks exactly the same...perfect. No fading of the red at all. Now I was able to use the white latex as the lettering material which with smaller letters would have been tricky without a tight computer cut mask, but because the letters were 8-10 inches tall and simple block, it worked out just fine. Very impressed how it has held up.
I also used Metal latex safety red on a concrete block arrow, eight years ago in full sun. I only put on two coats and it is beginning to show some white bleeding thru. Had I triple coatsd it, I imagine it would have held up a bit better.
I also tried One Shot lettering (three coats of black with catalyst on MDO 4x4' full sun. That was four years ago. I used some premium grade vinyl letters along with some hand brushed with One Shot lettering on it. Some of the vinyl is barely beginning to peel up, but the One Shot is doing fine (tan and dark green over black with catalyst.) It has lost most of its gloss, but still looks fine. I think the catalyst has helped out, but as you know, keeping a can of catalyst from turning into a rock is impossible shelf life (one year at best). I even tried changing it into a smaller glass jar where there was very little air in it. Still turned hard. They only sell it in quarts that I am aware of and the stuff is ultra expensive. Ugh.
I stripped and refinished a Lincoln in 1978. Many, many coats of acrylic lacquer over an epoxy primer. 33 years later and the finish is still absolutely fresh. Ultra shiney and zero deterioration. The stuff does come in about any color and is very tricky to apply by spraying, but 33 years says alot. Catalyzed auto acrylic enamel does not hold up that well, but I imagine some newer urethanes do hold up perfectly, but for lettering, it has to be sprayed to get the surface and consistency of finish, not to mention the difficult masking problems with tight lettering.
Joey Madden would have alot to say about archival finishes probably with urethanes, so track him down. Have not heard much from him lately? Joe Pribbish migt also be a good resource?
Me? I try to avoid the projects where a long life is expected. Most of my work comes down in six months at best as it is mostly just window splashes, but I have been around all other paints for most of my life in auto resto.
It sure would be nice is we had some paint engineer here on Letterville, who we could ask alot of tecnical paint questions about? Yoyu know, someone who really knows what the good stuff is and how to fortify for archival results?
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
we have a paint company BLP MOBILE PAINT CO. http://www.blpmobilepaint.com/architectural_paints.html i use one of their products called NAM-A-LAC. i love it!!!! do a lot of background painting with it. works a lot like the old 1 shot. give em a call and see if they have a distributor near you of get some sent to you by UPS.
[ August 06, 2011, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
If you can spray your latex thru a gun you can get a finish that would accept vinyl. no oil is going to stand up to the elemnts like latex unless it is clearcoated
Posted by Jerry Starpoli (Member # 1559) on :
I use Ronan bulletin and lettering enamels. They still work great.
Posted by Steve Luck (Member # 5292) on :
Has anyone had good results with acrylic enamels like Sherwin Williams or even Krylon? I thought Krylon was only available in spray cans but I've seen quarts recently. Does it hold up well outdoors?
Where do you get Ronan paint in the midwest?
Sign-cerely seeking answers, Steve
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
Steve I am using Sherwin Williams Super Paint, satin and gloss, also S.W. Resilliance It is a bit more but they can mix quarts. The jump to latex is not a simple one to evaluate. I am convinced we gain longer life and less in paint cost but the number of coats must be figured in. Clean up and drying time are on the plus side. I am using more masks. Buy some of the 1 shot hardener or switch to Ronan.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
You can google ronan and order from them directly, I have found. Fresher stuff.
As far as lasting a long time, I still see latex as being the best alternative, both in terms of adhesion and color fast qualities. Clearing oil based paint looks great and is very sexy to work with, but the clear does not hold up as well as I like. Tried catalyst in even the best clear I could find and still not pleased. Galkyd with catalyst seems to be the best I have found for less yellowing, but adhesion is always the problem with any oil. I have some tests on some panels outside in the sun going on now and will know more in a few years.
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
The Ronan Aquacote paints seem to hold up well and can be used for hand-lettering as well. But if you need a durable red background, why not buy the material already coated from your supplier?
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
I would love an enamel that works well and lasts like colors from years back. They seem to be able to get auto paints to hold up better, but not our stuff. I assume more than the absence of lead?? I don't know that ROnan holds up any better...do you?
Posted by DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :
16 years ago I painted a small house sign with. Maroon matthews urethane. . It faces mostly west. The west side still looks really good. The east side has fadeed just a small amount. (matthess uses a reducer and catylst, and must be spayed with. really good ventilation, you must wear a respirator. I use Matthews. whenever the cutomer insists on maroon or red., or purple
Diane
Posted by DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :
16 years ago I painted a small house sign with. Maroon matthews urethane. . It faces mostly west. The west side still looks really good. The east side has fadeed just a small amount. (matthess uses a reducer and catylst, and must be spayed with. really good ventilation, you must wear a respirator. I use Matthews. whenever the cutomer insists on maroon or red., or purple
Diane
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
A 'commercial sign maker' who wants to give their clients the BEST value will be using acrylic paint. And never use any clears. Enamel paint is for INDOOR USE ONLY.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Check out Fine Paints of Europe.
I've heard nothing but good results.
[ August 06, 2011, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I've heard pretty good things lately, about Ronan. I've used it for many years,with good success. But since all other oil-based enamels went to crap, Ronan has stayed OK.
House of Color and Custom Shop both offer lettering enamels, that are supposed to be very good.
You can use an enamel hardener with them. I found some off-brand hardener at NAPA a couple years ago. It was a bit cheaper than name-brand, and seemed to work fine.
Preston, stay away from enemel clearcoats. Try Sherwin-Williams' Sher Clear. It holds up quite well, does not yellow, and actually seems to 'flow' out a little.
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
I still use 1Shot lettering, Ronan when I can get it...But I also UV clear coat after dry and hoping it lasts.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I been talking to Letterville about urethanes since 1996 and many of you still live in the past..
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
many of us haven't seen everything you've ever written... but this seems like a good thread to talk to us about urethane's again... or maybe you could just post a link to your previous urethane advice threads...
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
My favorite paint is Coronado RustScat Acrylic Latex Enamel. I have signs out over five years that look like the day I painted it. No clear coat. However, it is really hard to find.
I recently tried Sherwin-Williams All Surface Enamel which dried and applied very much like the Coronado. We will see how long it holds up but it is easy to get locally.
I cannot stand Sherwin-Williams SuperPaint or Resilience. Both stay so sticky. The latex enamels dry harder and are never sticky feeling.
That's my 2 cents worth!
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
I'm using Ronan these days, but I bought a can of Rustoleum white last month. It was good enough that I'm going to try red and yellow and see if they cover ok. In a few years I'll start seeing how they weather. I'm also going to try marine oil paint from a local manufacturer. I never want all my eggs in one basket, so I use acrylics when a gloss is undesirable.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
Pickett whats wrong with clearcoats?
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
Maybe if you are clearing on a boat, motorcycle or car there are (two part) 'specialty' clears that are useable. That is, IF you know HOW to use them. A sign is 'only a sign', and should never be counted on to last for too many years. Even in the 'old days' when enamel paint had lead in it, all signs were expected to need to be repainted every three or four years.
Too many 'newer' sign paint users have told themselves that a clear will protect the paint, and extend the life of a sign. Novice painters do this until they experienced a failing clearcoat or two. There are many clears on the market, most of which break down in ultra violet (sun) rays. Unless you certainly know what materials you are really using and doing w. clears, it is best to avoid using them altogether.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
The guys at Disney use a clear acrylic with UV protection and claim 15 years from it. Kent tells me that they're basically the same formula and the Clear Star looks like a way to go. I have not had anything out there for more than a few months yet testing the claim. I also have not tried lettering with acrylics. Are you able to get them to flow so that you can maintain a rhythm? Even the new enamels don't flow and cover like the old stuff.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Joey convinced me to switch over to urethanes about seven years ago. I haven't looked back since. I do want to state that I work primarily on vehicles and rarely do signs anymore. For backgrounds, striping/urethanes would be mighty expensive and probably overkill. I always used industrial enamel for coating out and never had any problems. For lettering, the urethanes will work just about anywhere that One Shot will. I use the urethanes on 95% of what I do. They cover as well or better than One Shot and are not prone to fading, chalking, chipping etc. The quick dry time is really nice. I NEVER leave layout marks on a job. I've talked to a number of stripers that have switched to Ronan and they like it just fine.
Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
Dupont has a new striping/lettering paint that Paul Quinn has been pushing. It seems to flow really well. It uses a catalyst so no skinning in the bottle, but I'm not sure if it HAS to be cleared or not. Maybe he'll chime in here if he sees this.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I use the DuPont along with HOK, when catalysed, no clearing necessary.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
On all my Dimensional work I have switched to Nova Colors. Nothing out there yet for a long period to say, But I sure do like painting with it. Very Creamy and great coverage. Down side is you do have to order it and Mix your colors.
My Sherman Williams Store talked me into trying their 100% solids acrylic did cover nice but haven't tried to roll it out yet.
I have had very good luck with PPG Automotive enamels spraying it on ACM but it is 2 part and not cheap once you add in reducer and hardener.
All my glass work and some MDO Signs still use 1 shot/chromatic but granted all mine is still lead based. (bought out an old sign shop in NE. and had 70 gallons of old 1 Shot and Chromatic)
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Originally posted by William DeBekker: ...some MDO Signs still use 1 shot/chromatic but granted all mine is still lead based.
DO YOU KNOW HOW i CAN TELL IF MINE ARE? I ALSO BOUGHT OUT AN "OLD" SUPPLY... BUT ONLY 5 YEARS AGO.. (BUT IT WAS SOMEWHAT "OLD" ALREADY) SO, ARE THERE CLUES ON THE CAN?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
oops... caps lock Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
What is the name of the manufacturer on the bottom rear of the can?
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
On my cans it's very obvious they all have warning labels.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
If it was my project at the size you mentioned I would scuff the Alupanel with coarse Scotchbrite (red) and roll on as smooth a coat as possible with a flat white premium exterior 100% acrylic latex house paint. I'd use a quality short nap roller cover. Keep all the paints you use on such a project in a flat sheen, because the flat sheen allows you to tape and mask areas quicker than glossy sheens. The gloss comes later ...
I would then roll on the color of the lettering in the general area where it would be. If the lettering is white I would skip that step. I would then cut a paint mask (positive image} including a cut for any outline or shade and apply it to the panels.
I would then roll 2 coats of Nova's Pyrole Red over the entire sign. After dry I would weed out the outline & or shade -- leaving the mask over the lettering and paint the outline & or shade the desired color until coverage is achieved. I would then remove the mask when this paint is dry and you should have a lettered sign with a flat sheen.
I would allow the Nova to dry a few hours and then roll on 2 coats of a 2 part automotive urethane clear over the sign. I gave a demonstration of this at Plymouth, because I have figured out how to do this and wanted to share this. I told Andy and Debbie to announce this to everyone interested, because this is cutting edge and so easy to do, but few attended the demo.
The net result is a glossy almost graffiti proof sign surface with uv protection. The tavern a couple blocks from my shop has this automotive clear on their sign and it and is 8 years old with red, orange and metallic gold on it and it looks almost like it was done yesterday. It will easily surpass my 10 year prediction and it faces south. What's more is when the clear wears thin, I can simply sand it and apply more. You can't do that with oil based varnishes and clears provided by the sign suppliers and you can't do that with ClearStar or any other water based clear.
Without the clear even acrylic paints in colors such as red, orange and yellow will fade significantly after 5 years and we have plenty of walldog mural history that proves that fact. To date the acrylic latexes are outperforming the alkyds such as 1 Shot and Ronan's when suspect colors are put to the test.
Rolling the clear is the thing I'm proudest of because it has allowed me to eliminate spraying it which will wreck any shop that doesn't have an advance paint booth and that's even using hvlp spray equipment. The stuff gets everywhere. Rolling leaves an attractive orange peel that disperses the light and leaves a glossy surface. I love it and it has changed things at our shop. I'm a Nova fan and the price is right and the service and shipping is outstanding.
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