I was dragged kicking and screaming into the computer age. I thought they were cool but the last thing I thought I needed was a computer. Bak in the early 90's I witnessed my kids working on computers often. And Janis did our books on our company computer too. The odd time I pecked out a letter, which Janis needed to edit of course as my typing wasn't the greatest to say the least. Why would I need a computer? There was no way to be creative on one.
Then they invented the digital drawing pad. This newfangled tool was pretty cool. It was, at first, a bit awkward to look at the screen and draw with my hand far away, but the pen did what I needed. It was 1998 and computers were finally up to my speed and had an interface that allowed me to interact. It was pretty brutal at first but I slugged through it with brute force of will. I've spent countless hours in front of them since then with some pretty amazing results. Computers revolutionized the way I did my drawing and presentations. It was still done by hand but the ink was virtual. Modifications and changes were suddenly easy without starting over. It was a marvelous thing!
Way back then I started designing our websites, although I then handed those designs to someone who could handle the necessary coding. It worked but changes were cumbersome, not instant, and costly. With coming ebooks, frequent workshops and constant new work, it's time to look at a new model. Like the digital pen of the last decade it is now possible to have someone as computer illiterate as me design and post a website. Simply amazing!
I've started in on the design of a new website which will become our .com space (we currently have our site posted as a .ca site. This will eventually become a pass through to the new site.
For now I'm sticking with a tweaked relatively stock template. All the pages look somewhat like a blog format right now and I'll tweak that over time... all possible in real time in this format.
You don't ned to buy any programs, don't have to learn any difficult coding. It's drag and drop with the changes appearing in real time on any platform or browser. And if I can do it I believe anybody can.
There is still a place for web designers for sure. But with the constant changes I want to make to our website on an ongoing basis this seems to work pretty well for me so far.
It's very affordable in my opinion and a great alternative to those who can't afford to have someone else do their site.
Right now I'm using their domain but I will (easily) customize it to ours soon. This transition makes their domain invisible even though the site continues to be hosted there.
Over the next weeks and months I'll be adding to and endlessly tweaking this website, trying my best to make it look like what I have in my head. It's going to be interesting I'm sure.
-grampa dan
Posted by Bruce Brickman (Member # 8180) on :
Thanks for sharing this Dan. I need an update badly and I have been using Foliosnap but have been limited there. This appears to offer much more.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
I have some 250 new car agencies as client and have dealt with them for many years. Several years ago, I was asked to resdesign some of their ad work for newpapers and gradually was asked to look at their websites for ideas. I have found this to be fun and very interesting work. The coding is really not any more of an issue than learning Corel Draw or any other software. After a while it just has become simply about what ideas I want to see changed than worrying about how to write it.
As I have said numerous times, I am very satisfied with hostmonster as a host for many of my new sites. Great support and people there in Utah who speak clearly and seem helpful. They always pick up fast and are never dismissive.
Posted by Doug Haffner (Member # 12445) on :
In terms of "drag and drop" site building- another really nice tool is called "WYSIWYG Web Builder". It has loads of functionality, but allows you to act almost like you're building the website in photoshop. It does cost about 45 bucks- but very handy! They have a free demo which I tried and then eventually decided to purchase the program.
Still surprising to see you going for the generic look on your online face to the world. Just seeing it so bland doesn't live up to the promise of the IC brand. Feels like a huge disconnect to me. Bland, sterile, uninspired. And those clearly are not the description of IC.
You can have a full customized site, built on WordPress or other platforms, which still is still fully a content managed site, but just doesn't look like one.
[ February 07, 2011, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Dan Antonelli ]
Posted by Gary Boros (Member # 8487) on :
Dan, if I'm not mistaken, you just redid your website a couple of weeks ago, now are you planning to redo it again in this manner? I can only imagine the reason you are changing it again is due to the fact that you want more control over the content management yourself and want the changes to be more immediate, is that correct? I hear Wordpress being recommended quite often, does anyone know if Wordpress is comparable to Squarespace? Do they both serve the same function?
By the way, I loved the beautiful simplicity and navigation of your most recent website revision. I'm starting to feel like a lot of the "designer" websites are looking generic.
[ February 07, 2011, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Gary Boros ]
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
Me too, I love the simplicity and lack of gimmicks. The fascinating part is the artistry of the signs/sculpture and I see no reason to distract from that. The site itself feels very straightforward which makes a good impression businesswise. Feels honest and straightforward. My opinion is it's good to see your site back "on track" again.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
The site currently is very generic looking without a doubt. Over time and as I get a handle on things I intend to dress it up a little.
My thoughts on website design have changes some over the last while. In the past I have spent a great deal of time making it fancier, but this time around I have gone in a totally different direction.
I purposely did not do traditional galleries with thumbnails to click through. In analyzing the analytics of past and current websites I see that people generally only stay on a website for a few minutes. They typically visit no more than four or five pages.
My goal is to make it SIMPLE and straight forward. I believe now it is NOT about the website but rather bout the work displayed. The faster and more straight forward the better.
On top of that this is a format that is easy for me to change and adapt to my needs on the fly - something I need and want.
There are lots of good website design programs out there... I seriously considered Wordpress but liked this one better. The difference with squarespace is that it is cloud computing. You design on the fly and post as you go... no need to design, test and upload as with other programs.
-grampa dan
Posted by J & N Signs (Member # 901) on :
Dan, I must say that the new site is a keeper....been strugling on my end with netfusion...may do a switcheroo!
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I'm intrigued by the differing opinions of two talented and creative Dans.... I'd love to see Dan A's vision of an appropriate website for showcasing Dan S's work. Even just some examples of a similar showcase. I'm planning some changes of my own and will be interested in how this plays out.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Dan A, I'm attempting to grasp what you're saying. Are you saying that Squarespace cannot become the website Wordpress offers? Aside from design I mean. (which I know Dan S isn't done with yet)
I'm looking around myself and am open to suggestions.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Dan/s - does Squarespace or Wordpress have 'shopping cart' options?
Posted by Gary Boros (Member # 8487) on :
Todd, per Squarespace website, they do not offer a shopping cart option but do support paypal buttons and redirection to third party payment options (whatever that means, I'm not quite sure).
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
As Gary says above the Squarespace does allow me to market my Texture Magic DVDs through Paypal. If you look on the site I just created you can see how it works. Clicking on the paypal link allows you to make payment and then I get notification and information to whom I am to send the merchandise. I'll be doing my ebooks in similar fashion.
As fr as the creative site (and look) I am planning... I've only been playing with the squarespace software for a few hours and this is a trial version. The full version offers me more options and as I get familiar with things the site will change visually.
The strength of this site is I can tweak it a little at a time in real time. Undo's are dead easy should I create something I don't like.
What I'm seeing here is two different options... One is to get Dan or someone like him to build my website with my creative input. I think we could come up with something pretty spectacular. But I imagine it would cost a bunch too... most likely in the $ 5-10,000 range possibly much more.
Or I can take the current approach and slowly, over time work away at this relatively simple software and give myself an education. It may (or may not) take longer. I may or may not lose business as a result.
In one version I spend a lot of money and get instant gratification and have ongoing costs. I will still be reliant on a designer to update and change my site regularly.
In the second scenario I hack my way through it, learning plenty as I go. But I am in control of my own destiny, I can make changes on a whim, and have a little fun. I spend virtually nothing in the process.
And in the end I would bet the outcome would be the same... (for me)
I view it somewhat the same as when I was coming out of high school and seriously looking at four years of art school. Instead I decided to go into business and educate myself. It did cost me just the same in both time and money (as school would have) but I earned money and built my business while I learned. It worked for me and I have no regrets but it's not a choice I would recommend for everyone. Same as above for the website.
-grampa dan
Posted by Gary Boros (Member # 8487) on :
Todd, apparently in Wordpress, you can get a plug-in application to add a shopping cart to your site, as per the Wordpress website.
This stuff sure gets complicated fast though if you're not familiar with website development. I agree with Dan's (S) philosophy completely, however it is a double edged sword in that you trade tremendous amounts of your time for the creative control you desire. As usual, you have to decide where you cross the line of practicality and whether you should turn the task over to a professional at a cost, while utilizing your time more wisely, or whether you need that absolute control at a possible cost savings. It's definately a personal, soul-searching decision.
Posted by Gary Boros (Member # 8487) on :
Donna, I hesitate to comment, since my observations are only what I've gleaned from looking through the web briefly since Dan posed this very intriguing thread, but it seems that Squarespace is a closed proprietary service/system provided for the purpose of easily creating and managing a website or blog.
Wordpress seems to be an open source system provided for the same purpose. It seems as if Wordpress may have more options and freedoms associated with it, however it appears more complex to get it to do what you want it to do if you are a novice in this area.
Both methods seem to have similar total costs and require some level of ongoing cost to maintain a web presence.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I'm watching this thread with interest also as I need to get a website. At this time, with this economy, there is no way I could spend the kind of money it would take for Dan A. or the Diaz's to create my website as much as I would love them to. I have been looking at Web Easy Professional (listed in this review http://website-creation-software-review.toptenreviews.com ) and was wondering if anyone has tried it yet. At $50 it seems to be packed with features.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Thanks Guys!
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: As Gary says above the Squarespace does allow me to market my Texture Magic DVDs through Paypal. If you look on the site I just created you can see how it works. Clicking on the paypal link allows you to make payment and then I get notification and information to whom I am to send the merchandise. I'll be doing my ebooks in similar fashion.
As fr as the creative site (and look) I am planning... I've only been playing with the squarespace software for a few hours and this is a trial version. The full version offers me more options and as I get familiar with things the site will change visually.
The strength of this site is I can tweak it a little at a time in real time. Undo's are dead easy should I create something I don't like.
What I'm seeing here is two different options... One is to get Dan or someone like him to build my website with my creative input. I think we could come up with something pretty spectacular. But I imagine it would cost a bunch too... most likely in the $ 5-10,000 range possibly much more.
Or I can take the current approach and slowly, over time work away at this relatively simple software and give myself an education. It may (or may not) take longer. I may or may not lose business as a result.
In one version I spend a lot of money and get instant gratification and have ongoing costs. I will still be reliant on a designer to update and change my site regularly.
In the second scenario I hack my way through it, learning plenty as I go. But I am in control of my own destiny, I can make changes on a whim, and have a little fun. I spend virtually nothing in the process.
And in the end I would bet the outcome would be the same... (for me)
I view it somewhat the same as when I was coming out of high school and seriously looking at four years of art school. Instead I decided to go into business and educate myself. It did cost me just the same in both time and money (as school would have) but I earned money and built my business while I learned. It worked for me and I have no regrets but it's not a choice I would recommend for everyone. Same as above for the website.
-grampa dan
I hesitate to respond, but no matter what I might suggest or say, it will sound self promotional. Dan, we know each other for a while - you know what I do, and I'm not responding back trolling for a job - so as long as we're clear on that, I'll address a few points.
I think you're maybe missing the point Dan. You can still have a fully customized site on WordPress or a hybrid site which would still offer customization of photo galleries. For most sign companies, content management for their galleries is all they need. But a full editable CMS system is possible with WordPress backend. I sincerely doubt you'd be able to build such a site as there is a significant amount of backend coding necessary to do it (I can't do it either, but my programmer can). Here's one example: http://lisklandscape.com/
And when you say 'spend virtually nothing' in the process? How do you figure? With each hour spent on this endeavor is another hour lost of billable time, perhaps, or perhaps not, maybe spent on doing things you do best. Not to mention, you'll still be left with a site that's not properly optimized. We have our regularly scheduled SEO conversations with each site launch But then you assure me that SEO isn't important to you -
Instant gratification, yes. But also a site that has the potential to pay for itself very quickly - especially because of integrated SEO - (sometimes within weeks as was the case for Roger at http://www.houseofsigns.com .)
When we talk about a site representing the work and character of the brand, Roger's is a good example. If you're in the market for high end carved signs, you know you're in the right place.
Myself personally, I just wish Dan's site better represent the brand, and the promise of the brand that we all know from Dan's brilliant work. To me, it looks homegrown. Clearly the work isn't - but I've got to get past the first impression to get to that stage. Dan sets the bar in this type of signage - he's the best there is - at least that I've ever seen. I'd like his site to be the best there is too.
No shame or downside in wanting to learn new technology, unless it comes at the expense of your own business. You have to be the judge on that. Or read my last article in SignCraft, and tell me which side you think you fall on
It's all good Dan - you're probably the best on the planet at what you do - and no matter what you're site looks like - that doesn't change that simple fact.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kelly Thorson: I'm intrigued by the differing opinions of two talented and creative Dans.... I'd love to see Dan A's vision of an appropriate website for showcasing Dan S's work. Even just some examples of a similar showcase. I'm planning some changes of my own and will be interested in how this plays out.
Here's a sample site which has a lot of character, and gives a nice thematic experience that resonates with the existing branding we created, and at the same time, gives viewers and indication of the promise of the brand. This is a comp only, building out as we speak. This will be a fully editable CMS system on a WordPress backend.
Thanks for the link and suggestions Dan. I love the site you did for this client... but... in my opinion something like this would be far too busy and take away from what we want the focus to be on for our company ... namely our theme and design work. Far too busy for my taste.
Also to get at the information we want to convey I don't want people to have to work hard (click multiple times) to get to.
The site I am building will get more themed and colorful as I figure things out and build the site through the next while... but in no way do I want it to distract from the work we are presenting.
I'm not selling flashy websites, nor mere entertainment. I want to merely showcase our work in a classy way. I know the jury is still out until I'm done... watch and see.
-grampa dan
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
This is going to be very interesting to follow. I can easily see both sides of this coin.
Dan S., for what it's worth, I like the look of your old site much, much better than the new one. The colors just seem to suit you.
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
I'm with George, but we'll wait and see how it plays out. Dan A - the House of Signs website says the domain is for sale and all I could find on it were links to other sign companies. Am I missing something?
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Our old site colors are still nice in my view and something I may go back to. It's all possible with this new software. I'm also messing with some cool ideas with sketches as background image but real faint... I think that would be cool and give some theme to the site.
Right now I'm just doodling... seeing what looks good and what the capabilities are.
I have no doubt I will be able (over time) to create a site i absolutely LOVe and that works for us. In the meantime our old site is still live and the one I am promoting. I see this new site as something I will work on in spare time over the next few months... then start promoting officially. I'll post it here again for comment as we proceed.
My point here is to show something cool I discovered that might be useful to some folks here who can't afford the big guns, yet with their own design skills perhaps create something tht works for them.
-grampa dan
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Dan A. - The site you posted is very cool and appropriate for the business it represents. I have to agree however with Dan's assesment of wanting to keep the background quiet for his website. Still I do agree that currently it is somewhat generic. Dan S. - When I look at both of your websites the same thought comes to mind. I'd like to see some more representation of texture/rust, because I have come to think of your work in those terms. At the same time think it is important to keep the background behind your photo's simple. With all do respect (Man it is easy to steal your work! ) I put my thoughts into imagery. It's just quick and dirty, but I should not be playing with all the work on my slate!
Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
Hang in there Dan, my new site didn't go over the greatest with a few people either.
Do whatever you think will reach your customers in the best way, but keep an open mind, some of these suggestions are good ones. Sometimes it helps to have outsiders perspective. Also keep in mind that their are several different types of sites you can build that appeal to different types of people, and you can't please everyone.
I kind of agree with the point others had made about the design of the site reflecting your approach to signs. Signs and websites share a lot in common after all.
If I were you, and this were my site, (which I'm not, and it isn't, so take this with a grain of salt) I would design and build a header for your site in the real world. Route it out on your Multicam, fabricate it, paint it up, then take a nice picture of it. Crop it out, and use that as your header. Fill the top quarter or so with that piece of art, then keep the body of the site, nice and clean and simple. What better way to tell a story about who you are and what you do.
Think of the graphics on your site as the sign to your studio, or how you decorated your shop, There is function there but it also tells a story. It creates an impression. Why can't your site be the same way.
You once told me that a great sign is one that people will stand in front of and take pictures. Is this site itself picture worthy? I know the content is.
Here is my point: Take David A Smiths site for example. The second you land on his site before you start reading anything, before you browse through his photos, you instantly have an idea what this guy does.
His site is pretty intense and I'm not saying that is what you need to do, but all things considered, its easy to navigate, the content is easy to find, The body of the site is pretty clean and well organized. Those things sound like they match your goals.
It's an effective site, in that it represents him and what he does.
In conclusion, you rock and your work is amazing.
[ February 10, 2011, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
Dan, I doubt i'm alone, but I don't just like to sit and look at a site and its pictures. I like to click on stuff and navigate a bit or else i get bored and move on. There is a little bit of professionalism that resonates from a site that is slightly more complex. That kinda sounds whacky i guess. I could have A.D.D. though.
but then again, i don't have a site Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I'm the last person to give any advice on this subject, but I know that much of Dan's advice when I was working on my own site was invaluable.
I know it's far from perfect- but I see it as a ongoing work in progress, which is certainly what I think Dan is doing with this. I won't presume to critique it in progress. That would be like the email I got from someone who saw the goofy drawing of my owl on the pink foam and said "You should really not show this- it's a bad representation of what you're doing".
Is it easy (Dan A.) to use a web page design and add a blog in Wordpress if you aren't a programmer? I set up the blog page and then give it to the programmer, so the design is already done and matches the original website.
I usually design the sites and then hand it off to a programmer to do PHP. But on one of the last sites, my programmer set it ALL up (entire website) in Wordpress. That is AWESOME, because I can go in and make text and image changes. As long as we aren't changing anything major with the layout of the page, I have control form this point on.
Now I am working with a different programmer and it seems that to add the blog will be an additional $200 of his programming time.
Is it as simple as having a generic Wordpress template and applying a graphic for the blog?
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
forgot to hit they reply button Posted by Shane Durnford (Member # 8125) on :
It was my frustration with programers that led to me searching for alternatives. I use squarespace as well. Spent some time becoming familiar with their interface and learning a bit of code. It's not a substitution for the heavier websites but it's brilliant for most applications. Quick, easy and affords complete autonomy. Less is more- a distilled clean design can say plenty without detracting from the product or service. Quality sites for the fraction of the cost. The value is in the design and the savings are gained from the client adding their own content. Low hanging fruit so to speak.
Do we design for our fellow designer - or do we design for the clients whose work we seek? Is our best work showed with a simple white frame - or a background or frame that adds an extra element for the eye to absorb? It depends.....
Merit in each of the "Dan's" point-counterpoint discussions IMO.
Dan S. does work which will transcend the need for a glitzier website. That's clear.
Dan A. is correct in his professional assessment (that Dan S. does work which COULD ousthine even the glitziest of websites) - and also the point behind the 'billable hours' issue. I also loved his objectivity in realizing it could sound self-promotional. Pure. Nice.
Dan S. satisfied his own design philosophy by directing the look and perception of his company as it aligns with his own personal philosophy about business - specifically HIS business.
But there aren't many Dan S.-types out there. (THANK GOD!! ) So those who wish to try to do it as Dan S. did, listen to Dan A. and his points made.
I call it a draw . . .
Nice topic. Well presented. Point-counterpoint. I love honesty and effective communication. It's why I'm an optimist.
It's also clear why each of these men are so successful in what they do. They're each still willing to listen. They're each willing to defend their beliefs.
Group hug . . . hahahahahaha
Sawatzk'eh . . . we need to talk on the phone. I need you for something. I'll be in touch.... unless you try to beat me to the punch and call first because that's the kind of guy you are..... You gotta be first . . . LOL
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
While checking on this topic regularly, a thought popped into my head. There has been a ton of discussion on this board about great sign design, and that the average person doesn't know a good, well designed sign from letters on a board, and thus thousands of sign makers with very little design skills still get a ton of work because they are cheap.
So the question is, does the average person really appreciate a well designed web site? As long as a web site contains what you need to know, and can be navigated easily, wouldn't it get the job done? Does it really matter to the average person whether a web site looks better than a "bland" or "generic" site as Dan A. noted on Dan S's site? Now Dan A. definitely knows how to lay out a well designed knock your socks off web site, but really, how necessary is it? Am I comparing apples to oranges here? Dan A, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
If the average person doesn't really appreciate a well designed web site, then why should be have a professional do that work for us? Can't we just do it ourselves or have my talented nephew do something (and he doesn't charge an arm and a leg)?
In order to follow that scenario, you have to begin with the assumption that the public doesn't appreciate design. While they may not understand design, most can tell good from bad, or at least what they like opposed to what they don't like.
Design is all around us. We react to design every moment of the day. Subconsciously, we form an opinion about everything we see - either we like it or are turned off by it. There is no such thing as "having no opinion".
If design didn't matter, none of us would be in business.
Posted by Gary Boros (Member # 8487) on :
Dave, I know you would like Dan A's opinion but let me interject a quick thought on your question. I think that good design, whether it is a sign, website or other, does not slap you in the face and shout, "This is good design!" I think that good design works effectively, quietly, successfully, sometimes without calling attention to itself at all. Poor design however, gets noticed immediately and calls itself out loudly. In a website, the information you need to know, the navigation, the appearance, the confidence and comfort level you convey are all part of the good design.
Like Jay, I'm so glad that everyone has taken an objective, active interest in this thread, I've found it captivating.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Ray, I know many people can tell good design from bad. But does it really matter to them? If so, why are so many bad designers taking so much work from those that design well? And just like every sign does not have to be a masterpiece (nor can every sign BE a masterpiece) every web site does not have to be a masterpiece to be effective.
And I want to clarify one thing. I'm not calling Dan's website bad design. (When I think bad design I mean those sites that are mainly a messy compilation of red and blue text... we've all seen them... yuck ) Even though Dans' website is not of the caliber that Dan A would design, I think that for what Dan wants it to do, it will get the job done because it looks nice, it's just not over the top yet.
One other thought, we need bad web sites in a way. How else would Antonelli's sites end up on page 1 or 2 of a search engine if 100,000 sites of the same business were all as well designed as his?
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
A masterpiece is in the mind of the viewer. What I consider great may be just so-so to someone else. It's true in architecture, cooking, music, sports, etc.
It's true that not everything needs to be a masterpiece, but good design is still good design, whether it is a masterpiece or not.
I greatly admire Gary Anderson. I consider his work as masterpieces, but they don't look like Grandpa Dan. Both are good designers and both may be considered as producing masterpieces, but they don't look the same. But both are good design.
On the other hand, red on black diamond plate with blended shades and Old English (all caps) is not a masterpiece or good design, in my opinion. And yet, some folks think it's the cat's meow. Go figure.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
It's my belief bad design will attract the eye of the trained AND untrained and will pop out at you in all the wrong places.
Good design will flow and be a natural extension of your work and enhance it, not take away from it.
Good design will simply fade into the background and create the RIGHT background for your look.
Good design will elude your professionalism and give you a well put together look, regardless of who appreciates it or not.
Too many design factors can crash and burn a look just a quickly as too few. Finding just the right mix that eludes professionalism and maintaining your brand is what we all strive for.
Many here have missed the point of what Dan is proposing. He's found a way in which a 'capable artist' can implement their own look at free will, without hiring out to worry about html and all that net nitty gritty.
Some will achieve the right look, and others will not. That fact alone will determine if this is the right choice for them. And with a two week free trial on square space, there isn't much risk in simply trying in one's free spare time.
I asked Dan why he revealed his site before it was completed. His explaination was, he wanted to bring awareness that a self help option is open and to encourage others also starting from square A to follow along and not fear something new.
I myself wouldn't reveal a non completed site for professional traffic myself, however for learning collegues? I think that's why Letterville was invented.
Watch and learn! Let Dan figure it out for us, then you can decide for yourself. I'm in the front row rarin' to give it a whirl myself!
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I also forgot to mention, Dan will get it in both ears if I don't like what I see as a finished result. I personally vow to push him towards excellence!
Will he listen? No idea. But I won't make it easy for him to ignore me if he doesn't. Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
The last thing I would claim is that this new web website I'm working on is currently anything more than putting information on a website in a form provided. I've tweaked it a little thus far and will continue to do so, eventually perhaps creating something I am happy with.
I like the process so far because it is so flexible and easily updated and tweaked. Even in its current very beginning stage I like it - better than some professionally coded sites I've had in the past.
I present it as an option for those who might want to do something for themselves, if they are just starting out, have limited budgets or want to do it themselves without getting too technical. Guys like Shane obviously can make this format SING! Nice site!
I believe a good looking, well functioning, easy to navigate website is important to each of our businesses. How that is defined will undoubtably differ with whomever we talk to. Ultimately we each have to weigh our specific needs against our available budgets and abilities.
-grampa dan
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Sorry I've been slow to respond on this thread. Was out on San Diego servicing a few of our bigger accounts, and thankfully landing a few new ones. Boy, is it nice out there...
I think our philosophy is the site is first and only designed for the target audience, and secondly, establish a level of expectation of the experience in dealing with the firm.
For our redesigned site, we did go very clean, simplified and worked very hard on page layout. Yes, there's still a ton of content on it, which if the viewer wants, can drill down.
The site is still geared for small businesses, but upscaled a bit to try and attract those with the proper budgets to support the level of expertise we provide.
Because of our site's strong SEO, it still pull in roughly 15-20 leads per week. Many are not qualified, however. I'm not certain how to address it without basically saying upfront 'we're not cheap'.
I think there are pros and cons to anyone wanting to build their own site. In general I have not seen many who successfully combine aesthetics, marketing, and SEO into their own designed sites, and I still question the wisdom of trusting your company's most important marketing endeavor to an amateur -if you are one. This is not the place to cut your teeth on learning - because it has the potential to really really hamper your company's efforts to grow. It's like doing surgery on yourself. Sure you'll save a bit of money - but there's a good chance you might bleed to death on the table too. You really want to roll the dice on the health of your company with amateur?
Like I said in my last SC article - spending the 50k on a printer and then cheaping out on marketing yourself to get work for the printer - just doesn't make any sense to me. If any of you haven't read it - its a good read. You can download it here under 2011 tab (http://www.graphicd-signs.com/about-published-works)
Anyway, Dan and I will debate this for another decade or so. It's all good. Passion is what brings out excellence in everyone----
[ February 12, 2011, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Dan Antonelli ]
Posted by Gary Boros (Member # 8487) on :
Dan A., what level of content self-management are you able to offer to your customers with your latest websites? I think cost and content management are the two biggest factors that cause hesitation when considering a professional web designer. If the customer is able to self manage the content when the site is active, then the only other factor, which is cost, becomes a relatively minor one time issue, especially when you factor the other advantages into a professional web design. However, if the customer cannot manage their content easily, then for controlling individuals or those that require frequent change, the need to rely on the web designer continually is a nuisance.
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
A lot of people think that content management is so important, but we have only had about 3 or 4 out of about 50 web clients that actually use the CMS on a frequent basis- they either don't have time or they realize they don't have that much content to change. Most of them simply pay us to do the updates.
The web stuff changes really fast- 8 years ago we set out to specialize in Flash driven sites, and got really good at it. We implemented CMS, back-button features, SEO features, XML content, PHP forms, etc. We were building sites that nobody else could, without sacrificing some of the basic features that people expect from basic websites.
In the past couple of years, there has been a shift towards mobile devices, the whole "iPhone -vs- Flash" war and we have had to adjust what we are building. We are still building Flash sites but we have also added WordPress type sites to our arsenal- Pros and Cons to both- on one hand, it allows alot of ease in building the structure, but I really hate the fact that now I'm limited in the creative look and feel. I have absolutely no desire to spend my days as a web coder. I also hate feeling like I have stepped back into 1998 (does anyone remember how awful websites looked?)
So, much like the sign industry, we are having to make decisions on what type of products that we want to produce.
The 2 Dans are debating which is better:- a quickie-stickie vinyl sign cut in someone's basement, or a carved, guilded sign built in a craftsman's shop (only instead of signs, they are websites)-- they both are acceptable ways to make signs, in the right hands they can each look great and fill the needs, in the wrong hands they each could look cheap and unprofessional... Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
We can offer full content management, or just photo gallery content management, which I think is the right solution for 95% of every client. How often do you really need to change the content on your about us page? We can do full CMS, but the cost doesn't usually outweigh the benefit unless you're going in there pretty regularly to make changes.
Like Michael says - most who have it don't usually use it, unless its something like ecomm. But whether you are a landscaper, contractor or sign guy, I think CMS for photo galleries are a great feature, which doesn't add much to the cost.
In many respects its easier for us to build CMS for galleries, because then we don't have to load all the photos, as well.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
To me, CMS is a "value added" item. In other words, the customer wants it and I charge for it. Its easy to do and I make a couple hundred bucks extra.
The fun part is when they screw something up via the CMS. They call me to fix it for which I charge them for it. After a while they leave it alone and call me to do the updates which I also charge for.
I do have one client who kept screwing things up royally via the CMS. I finally set the page he was wanting to update on a regular basis to utilize Google Documents. This way he could update the info on the page without actually accessing the CMS. It works for him and no more weekly calls to fix his site.
[ February 13, 2011, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
So, if you aren't a "programmer" can you use the background of a website (that you have designed) and set up a blog in Wordpress relatively easily?
I have one site that was programmed in Wordpress that I go in and make the changes for the client and don't need to bug my programmer.
I switched programmers and the new one wants to charge an additional $200 to add in the blog.
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
CMS = Content Management System right? Just checking. lol
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Dan A - been admiring several of your 'logos' in the portfolio section of your web page.
Some nice stuff....nice web stuff too.
Funny how each 'firm' exhibits a certain 'style' in web design. Not to say there isn't some great variety, but clicking through Dan A's stuff - I see a generally clean, organized, restrained web design. Well laid out and easy to navigate.
The Diaz's web work is a visual extravaganza. The visual cues really lock you into what the website is all about. I find the Diaz's approach very fascinating. I could spend hours just enjoying their various website portfolio categories.
I like a little 'flash' and 'pizazz' and they do some crazy cool work. Nice to see 'fun' brought into a web experience in addition to the message.
Great work and kudos to you both.
I'd like to see some of Michael's work. Any good links to check out?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ya got it, Nettie.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Thanks nettie. I didn't even have a guess! Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
We tend to change up our website once each year totally... and add content all the time as new projects are completed in our shop. I also add to my blog at least two - three times each week. Even with a local web guy it ran into thousands of dollars per year and although he did a good job I was at his mercy as to when he could get at it and what he would charge. Each time I designed the changes I would inevitably think of something new right after. As we all know changes cost money and rightly so. But it needed to be cost effective. In short the old model simply wasn't working for us.
The flip side was the current model or something like it... somewhat plainer because of my (currently) limited web skills but instantly adaptable to whatever I wanted or needed or figure out in the future. Additions are dead easy and over time I will get to what I want in terms of design.
I want the entire focus to be on our work so there won't be any bells and whistles - and few click-throughs. Simple and straightforward is key for us.
In studying the analytics of our sites over the last year it seems to me that people generally only stay on our site four minutes on average and generally click through four-six pages no matter how complex or simple our site is.
Last year our website was 90 pages... now merely 11 with only our very best work displayed. Feedback I have received thus far from our customers has been very favorable. We have garnered work from the site and they have been good jobs - exactly the kind of work we were seeking. And my cost to put the site together has been only a few hours. THAT is winning a formula in my book.
A simple but effective website that shows our work is better by far than a fancy one that doesn't work, annoys or distracts our customers with gimmicks.
And it is certainly better to do a web site in this fashion than to not get to it at all for whatever reason.
-grampa dan
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
My second wife had CMS..........Constant Menstrual Syndrome.
Sorry.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky: simple but effective website that shows our work is better by far than a fancy one that doesn't work, annoys or distracts our customers with gimmicks.
I have to agree. I would rather see a bland design with great content than a fancy design with the content obscured.
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) I put my thoughts into imagery. It's just quick and dirty, but I should not be playing with all the work on my slate! 
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