Thought this topic might be well worth the discussion. I've read lot's of opinions on this site about how Red next to black is *taboo*
This is something that I don't think is a Black and White issue. Personally, I have seen many designs using the two colors in tandem that work very well together. I wouldn't say this is 'always' true... but I feel that black and red can work well together in many circumstances.
Following is a logo which I think is a classic, well done design in which black sits right next to red. Yes - there is white and a light gray mixed in - - but black is still next to red.
Never say never.... works for me.
I think some discussions on the merits of using black and red together that works and where it doesn't work would yield some excellent information.
Edited to put in right code.
[ December 14, 2010, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Jerry Starpoli (Member # 1559) on :
Either you or I lost something. This nowhere near what "we" had ever discussed in my almost 60 years of painting signs and now producing with the aid of a computer.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Does that mean you like? What's your thoughts on red next to black?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Nike has a ton of Black and red shoes... here's one where black is against red, but again, there's another contrast color (white) tossed into the mix which I think helps 'brighten' up the overall look.
I can see where it could be a woefully bad thing in a sign, if it was a black background and thin, red text... but perhaps as a combination in an element it works - depending on the design.
[ December 14, 2010, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Todd,
The main reason why the Bob Seger Logo works is because the light gray is the greatest contrast against the black therefore making it very readable. Same for the nike shoe, the swoosh is the highest contrast.
Posted by Bill Wood (Member # 6543) on :
A lady at the Dixie Classic Fair bought an auto tag from me with the lettering Cherokee.The background was red and she wanted the letters to be black shaded in white.I told her this would not work and you couldn't read it.That's what I want she said because the factory letters on the Jeep is white and I know that will look good.I painted it her way because the customer is always right.She came back to pick it up and this is what she said...It looks like crap and you can't even read it.The black is to dark and there is a space between the white and the black on each letter.Was it the black paint too dark,the space between the shade and the letter,or was she the one that knows it all. The customer is always right!
Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
You are absolutely right. It isn't black and white. Actually that's kind of a double entendre. For if a person were to take a design which uses red and black together down to a gray scaled image, they would see what is really at play... It's all about contrast.
Red can work well with black if it's used correctly. In your example the red is dark enough that if you were to put that design through the squint test, the red would drop back and disappear into the black background and your eyes would only really pick up the lighter gray and white colors of the text. So the red is only realy an accent.
BUT on that same layout look at "bobseger.com" in the lower right corner. That doesn't pop nearly as much as it should/could, especially next to the white "Check it out". That is a poor use of contrast. If anything I would have reversed that by having the more important web address as white and the "check it out" as red. Or just have it all white or gray.
I think the average person (the non sign maker/designer) would be surprised to see how dark those reds really are when you convert that design to gray-scale. And the reason sign makers say don't use red on black is just a simple way to say that those colors tend to not contrast very well.
Have you ever tried explaining contrast to a non-designer/non-artistic person? Most of the time it's much easier to just tell them there some sign commandments out their which reads "thou shall avoid using red on black." right after "thou shall not put italic type on a arch" and before thou shall not use all caps old english on that back of tinted out town car".
[ December 14, 2010, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I think those are very good assessments Joe and Bob.
Actually - I think the Bob Seger 'red' would have been nicer if it were a brighter red... like on the Nike shoe... or even a bit brighter than that.
Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: Actually - I think the Bob Seger 'red' would have been nicer if it were a brighter red... like on the Nike shoe... or even a bit brighter than that.
are you talking about the web address or the the outline on the logo?
In my opinion, brighting up the red on the web address would help it. But keeping a darker red on the logo would work better then a brighter red, as far as contrast and readability goes. In that case you want the red to act as an accent, or to support the design, not to stand out. Standing out would create a fuzzy edge to the lettering and muddy up the layout.
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
I've always liked this logo.
Lighter reds on black can work well.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hi Joe - I was thinking brightening up the outline red might make it appear less muddy - but as you're saying it might be the wrong thought...however, Brad's Texaco logo is a good example of good black/red contrast.
Maybe it depends on the individual layout and supporting colors.
EDIT: Actually Joe, looking back again at the Seger logo - I think you're right in this case. The red is there, and acts as a subtle accent without fighting for visual dominance with the Gray/White logo - - which is what you really see as the dominant portion of the logo. Good call.
[ December 14, 2010, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
One thing that is helping the Seeger logo is the black relief around the lettering. It keeps the contrast between the white and black high and allows the red to drop into the background. If the red was nestled up against the white, the contrast would drop a couple of notches. Something else happens in certain instances when red and black touch. I'm sure everybody is familiar how red lettering with a dark blue outline on a white background look purple ( and yes, this is another example of poor contrast ) This is a result of a phenomenum called "eye mixing" The eye mixes the blue and red together. The same thing happens to a red letter with a black outline on a white background ( another poor combination ) The eye mixes the red and black together and pushes the red to a brownish shade. The only time you can actually see this is when hand lettering the outline. Before you start with the black, the red is really pretty and vibrant. Start pulling that black outline and all of a sudden that pretty red gets to start looking quite muddy.
Most scales put white at 0% and black at 100%. Red sits at around 50%
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Good info George - picking up some good tidbits I hadn't considered before...
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
What if instead of "The Silver Bullet Band" they were called "The Blue Steel Band? Dark/Med. blue instead of med. grey would have been a very bad for that logo.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
But Bob and the Silver Bullet Band were making music and money way before that logo was developed...they weren't gonna change the name.
The logo/album cover works.
The red is only a tiny accent colour, it has no effect on the overall effect and unless pointed out..the average viewer would probably not even notice it's peresence.
Gotta realise..we are a bunch of people who overanalyse the tiniest details of colour combos or letter styles or layouts or negative space that the average person could care less about!!
Edited to add..after 3 years of retirement, I still look at and comment about signs and it bugs the hell out of Shirley.
[ December 15, 2010, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Yep - Dave, that red outline (Joe and a few others mentioned it too, I believe) really serves to pop out the silver logo, supporting the Silver as the dominant feature. The red is secondary, yet is integral to the logo design by adding a touch of warmth along the perimeter. It's contact with black doesn't bug me a bit.
Something about that logo, I just love: the motion, the strength - just seems well laid-out and very dynamic. It's retro, yet relevant...
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
One thing is clear to me, red and black work as long as there is white to help it out. Red and black alone just aren't strong enough. Bill
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
The Seegar logo is a good example to use the squint test on. Actually since my eysight is so poor, all I have to do is remove my glasses and the red basically disappears, which is exactly the way an outline should work.
The only thing that bothers me about this logo is the light source.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I think the red and black no-no (at least in our shop) is when a customer wants a sign that has a light background (usually white) and they want black lettering with a red shade ... or a red letter with a black shade. That is a common request.
When I started doing trucks most customers were used to getting their name and what they did embellished with a shade and sometimes outline. Most of the shades did not touch the letter but were held away from the letter. We call that distance from the letter a glow line. The glow line helped the legibility of a shaded letter and it was also faster to execute -- especially on scripts.
It all has to do with contrast and value. Value when your talking about color refers to the lightness or darkness of each color. With red -- pink is a light value and burgundy is a dark value.
A black letter on a white background does not need another color to make it easier to read, because that is maximum contrast -- black against white. If you want to make a black shaded letter on white with a certain degree of embellishment to make it look fancier, you need to use the lightest color possible such as light gray or any other pastel color. A glow line helps legibility. Red is too close in value to black to be used as a shade color with black and because of that it shouldn't be used to embellish a black letter on a white background. A navy shade against a black letter on a white background is even worse, because navy and black are almost the same value.
That being said, a black letter shaded with red on a white background is probably the most common request I've had as a sign painter from a new customer. I school my new customers and if they insist I use a black letter with a red shade on a white background, I simply show them the door. If I don't I get to hear somebody say later, "You can't read that from a distance."
But as was mentioned with some of the replies, red, black and white go well together. Black and white are totally neutral and go with all color combinations. One of my all time favorites is a red background with white copy shaded in black. In this case since red is closer in value to white than black is to white, a black shade actually improves the legibility of white on a red background. This is true with all medium value background colors when white is the copy and black is the shade.
Examples of medium value colors would be 1 Shot's light blue, process blue, blue green, emerald green, bright red, fire red, vermillion and proper purple.
As far as outlines go, with red and black on a white background. In our shop we will use a red letter with a black outline provided the black outline is not so thick that the negative space surrounding the letter disappears. You need negative space for legibility. We don't use a red outline around a black letter on white, because red is closer in value to white than black is to white and therefore when it is used to outline black on white it actually reduces the sharpness of the contrast.
[ December 15, 2010, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I should also say that warm and cool colors are important in any design, because warm colors tend to give the illusion of coming forward in space and cool colors tend to give the illusion of receding in space. When a viewer looks at a sign they tend to see copy that is larger, bolder and warmer first.
With some thought you can actually compose a sign so that the viewer sees what you want them to see first and they see the least important things last.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Wow! Excellent input from the 'masters'.... appreciate this conversation guys and gals. Love reading your thoughts on this stuff.
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
I dont think there is anything wrong with it in certain cases. Small type for instance usually disappears using these two together, but larger type looks much better, especially if used on bright backgrounds. Here are two examples. Both the white and yellow backgrounds make the colors jump more. By adding the orange drop shade, it makes the contrast better by setting the type out more. The color of the red has alot to do with it. The brighter the red, the better it works. Also, the colors make a difference on the colors they are used with. If you notice the gray dropshade and orange dropshade in each instances look darker in the top samples, but they are exactly the same color. I dont have any problem using these together. I dont do it alot, but I do when needed. Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
red lettering on black background does not work. black lettering on red background does not work. These are different than a pair of nikes or an album color with 5 other shades of grey in it. You cant compare objects to signage.
as far as the TEXCO logo the red is much lighter than our normal red PLUS the star really help for identification
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I think John illustrated my point. Although his examples may look cool and would certainly be fine on a business card or a close up sign, I wouldn't use them on a sign that would have to viewed from a distance or on a truck where a customer says he wants maximum legibility. Realize this ... some customers don't care so much about legibility, they would rather have it be fancy. For them, the more outlines, inlines, textures, flourishes, etc. -- the better.
If you squint your eyes at those examples which would simulate viewing them from a distance (& George could simply take his glasses off) they are all hard to read. The outline especially in the word "Make" has closed the negative space around the letters. In the one that is black with a red outline, "Make" appears to be black on a red background.
If the red with a black outline was represented so that the black outline was the edge of the letter and the red was inside that space, it would read better, because the black would be surrounded by white and thus would have maximum contrast.
Better yet, no outline with a black letter would read easier yet, although it might be boring it would have maximum contrast.
The only bright color going around the black that would actually enhance the black against the white would be a bright yellow. I say this, because according to OAAA color contrast for maximum distance impact -- black on yellow is #1.
I believe white on red is #10 and red on white is #9, I'll have to search on-line for the list, but that always amazed me, because stop signs are white on red and most fire trucks are red. But if you see some yellow fire trucks, it's probably a result of these tests. Yield signs are black on yellow and most school buses are yellow with black copy and trim.
This is a good discussion for me, because it kind of goes along with George's post a few days ago. I think in our quest to make things impressive with outlines, shades, bevels, flourishes and the like, we sacrifice legibility. I think you have to strike a balance, because you also invite viewership when you have something that is interesting to look at instead of boring.
At our shop we try to make things painfully easy to read when they need to be strictly informational and viewed from a distance. When we haven't done this, we've regretted it. We get talked into things sometimes and that is our fault.
Check out the wide spacing on interstate signs when you get a chance. If you see them close up, you'd say, "wow, that spacing is really wide."
On the Bob Seger example, you'll notice a black glow line between the red outline and the rest of the lettering on "Bob Seger". That helps somewhat with legibility and if it was increased a little more it would help more. The layout looks cool and invites viewership and I have no complaints about it other than at the bottom I think "Check Out" should be red and "BobSeger.com" should be white, because I think "BobSeger.com" is more important than "Check Out".
I'm not trying to be bossy or scoldy here, I'm just stating the science behind the art, most of it I learned in college. Another important element to effective sign layouts is Gestault theories which deal with psychological effects of vision. This is something worth knowing for sign artists, because it deals with negative space and size and weight relationships. I'm sure there's something on-line about it.
[ December 16, 2010, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
On Gestault ... well, shoot, there's a bunch -- here's one:
When it comes to outline/shadows white and black are the hardest backgrounds to work with. Why? Because once you put a letter down on the background there is NOTHING you can do to increase the contrast between the letter and the background. Making the outline/shadow have more contrast than the letter makes for a poor reading sign. The best we can do is choose a letter color with the maximum contrast like yellow or white on black and then choose an outline/shadow color that falls into the background easily. The best colored backgrounds for outline/shadows are the mid range colors like red and the medium blues etc. Here you can take say white on a red background, 0% on 50% and then come in with a heavy outline and shadow of black and now you have 0% sitting 0n 100% and the letter pops off the background.
The bottom line is at a distance you want to be able to easily read the letter not the outline. A dominant outline/shadow combination at a distance is unrecognizable.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Love it guys!! Great stuff.
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
Bill D, I noticed your link to Palomar.I went to Palomar for art classes,Jim Saw was one instructor I had.Doug Durrant was my fav tho.
Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
I did something similar to this on another forum to visually prove a point.
I call it the grayscale/squint test:
If a design is difficult to read in grayscale or when you squint your eyes, it won't be an effective design. Plus it helps seeing different layouts side by side, so you can compare what layouts are most effective. Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Here is the color chart I was looking for that rates maximum visibility for one color on another. This is by the USSC (United States Sign Council) 1. BLACK on YELLOW 2. BLACK on WHITE 3. YELLOW on BLACK 4. WHITE on BLUE 5. GREEN on WHITE 6. BLUE on YELLOW 7. WHITE on GREEN 8. WHITE on BROWN 9. BROWN on YELLOW 10. BROWN on WHITE 11. YELLOW on BROWN 12. RED on WHITE 13. YELLOW on RED 14. RED on YELLOW 15. WHITE on RED
They also added:
Type and Fonts Choose only one or two fonts for your sign. Choosing 2 fonts that compliment each other can make your message stand out. Use fonts that are clearly legible from further away.
The following chart from the (USSC) will help you to determine what size type is needed:
Letter Height using Helvetica Medium Max. Readable Distance Best Impact 3" 100' 30' 4" 150' 40' 6" 200' 60' 8" 350' 80' 9" 400' 90' 10" 450' 100' 12" 525' 120' 15" 630' 150' 18" 750' 180' 24" 1000' 240' 30" 1250' 300' 36" 1500' 360' 42" 1750' 420'
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
LOL Dave!
Todd, the input is really intresting!
To me, the Seeger logo works for all the reasons mentioned - because it's dark red too, not a vibrant red or even just red. Therefore it does'nt compete with the main logo of the sign. It adds a colour.
Philosophically, mabey it suggests blood from the bullet - OK, sans philosophy, there IS another visual dynamic going on with the logo that is'nt always present with other logos; the fact that the grey, black & white are not just grey, black and white but representing 'chrome' which is not a colour at all.
In this case, a realistic chrome has not been created, but impressionistic. This visiual dynamic tells the eye, thus the mind to see something more than flat colours. The mind automatically sees the logo as a 3-dimensional shape with reflections from a mirror-like surface, even though the colours are just flat.
See Dave. Talk about over-analyzation! . . . lol
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Wow!! Awesome visuals and info backing up this topic Joe and Bill!!
It's really cool to have something like this as a visual 'proof sheet'.... I usually design by what I think will look good, but don't consciously, at least, think about the theory. So this is nice - to be able to contemplate the 'why's' of things.
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
Most of the time it's much easier to just tell them there some sign commandments out their which reads "thou shall avoid using red on black." right after "thou shall not put italic type on a arch" and before thou shall not use all caps old english on that back of tinted out town car".
