About a month ago I bid on a job that was a double sided illuminated pylon sign. The customer gave me guidelines on what they wanted (similar to the Holiday Express Logo) So I came up with a design, with new font, modified logo, the whole thing. I was competing with 2 other companies. The client told me I was in the right price range but they decided to go with someone else. Drove by the "new" sign the other day. It is exactly my design, same font, same exact design. I have this printed on my quote: Designs / layouts produced by Signworks remain the copyrighted property of Signworks and may not be copied at any time without written permission. A minimum charge of $200 will be billed for design time if this design is reproduced by individuals other than Signworks . Should I just send the client an invoice with this copy?
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
aaah...hell yeah!
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
How could you not?
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
Send it certified mail return receipt. Just to wake them up to the fact that you are serious.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I'd hand deliver the bill and ask the guy/gal why they thought it was 'ok' to steal your copyrighted design and allow a competitor to reproduce it.
It's always good to face people eye-to-eye with their crime.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Bill the theiving b@stard. Do the certified mail thing, it always puts a scare into them and makes it seem more official. As if your disclaimer isn't official enough... And never ever do anything without a deposit if you can avoid it. The sad thing is, the person probably doesn't think he did anything wrong. Love....Jill
Posted by Jim Moser (Member # 6526) on :
Not very ethical on the part of your competition either. I would never use someone else's artwork unless I could verify that they had been paid for it !
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Sue them both if you have the original artwork from back then. Your attorney will know just what to do as sometimes just a letter from him could get you paid.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
You Said Minimum charge of $200.00 for design, so charge the thieves $400.00... Honestly this just boils my blood.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Minimum charge.. That could mean a maximum of whatever you decide.
Bill them.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I'd send a bill & copy of my quote to the competitor too and circle the part about the $200. He HAD to know what he was doing was wrong and if he didn't he will NOW! Bill him too. Yes, the customer was wrong but I would be more upset at the other sign shop for stealing my art!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Jane, it could have been the customer who supplied just the picture of the artwork to the sign shop, all depending on how Jeff Wisdom supplied his photo. That's why its important to put a diagonal watermark with the word copyright across the photo
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I agree Joey, we watermark all of our sketches. But when you get a professional design from a customer can't you tell that the customer didn't design it and shouldn't the "other" sign shop have asked, where did you get this design? Granted the customer could have lied, but I would think most of us would have had red flags go up when we saw the sketch and we would have ASKED, "Where did this come from?" I think it was unethical of the other shop to copy it!
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
Todd has it right! Hand deliver it!
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
99.9% of the time I get a deposit or paid for the design.
Even though you had the disclaimer on your quote, it happened, and now you have to spend energy and money trying to chase money. I've done it so many times in the past I may even have an extra t-shirt you can have.
I'd send a bill, but if it isn't paid, it's a small price to pay for education.
Estimates are free, drawings are NOT.
This is a good time of year to review our policies and gear up for next year. Thanks for the reminder. The biggest offender of my own policies still remains to be myself. lol
[ December 01, 2010, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Good for you that you had that disclaimer!! You are completely covered legally and can take them to small claims if they fail to respond properly. Yeh . . . you could take the bill to them in person . . . But by sending a regular billing reminder highlighting the copyright disclaimer, you remain the consumate business person. No need to burn bridges just yet by being self-righteous. Give them an appropriate chance to realize the error. Who knows - you may still get work from the client . . . and the other company may have used cheap materials - when the sign prematurily fails - you'll be the one they call if you retain your integrity.
Please update us on how you decide to handle this and if you get paid!
.
[ December 01, 2010, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Upon readin' some of the replies . . . I noticed a lotta people wanna choke the other sign shop for stealing the design - but you can't know for sure they stole it. The client was responsible for the misuse of the design art. They took it and shopped a price. They could have told the other shop any number of stories about who/where the design originated. They could have just said 'Here's our logo. What would you charge for a sign the size we want?'
It's kind'a like when a husband cheats. The wife can't always blame the other woman who was probably lied to. He probably told her he was divorced, or in the middle of a divorce. The wife will waste time hunting down the other woman and slitting her tires. She should just kill the man. Ok. That's an extreme analogy . . . But I'm just sayin' . . . .
What I wanna know is . . . was Jeff about $200 cheaper on his price than the other shop or mabey only $50? LOL, after they ante-up on the copyright, the client could wind-up payin' more than if they'd just accepted Jeff's proposal in the first place! HA!
Posted by Tim Barrow (Member # 576) on :
I would document the existing sign with photographs(include the newspaper for that particular day for a time reference) and get all the information I could on any competitors involved, before I sent anyone a bill or brought the matter to anyone's attention,..that way if they realize they are in the wrong and change the sign somewhat to get out of the copyright infringement liabilities issue, you will have proof if you need to show it to the powers that be,...You can also go to the press with any factual issues and do alot of harm to the competitor and the client if all you say is true,..and,...you can ":prove" it.,...
[ December 01, 2010, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Tim Barrow ]
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
Would charge $200 per hour geeze you even had it on bid written out which they sign
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
Thank you all for the input. I do usually get a deposit on projects. I will send an invoice certified mail for the design work and highlight the wording about the design fee. I will also mention their are in violation of design copyright laws and can be taken to court. I have a photo of my design set on their property in an email with date. I also have a copy of the proposal I sent. For now I will bill them the $200, if they don't pay within a week I will file a small claim for $500. Thanks again.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
This has happened to me too. Send a bill....they will pay. Just the thought of court will make them simply pay.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Go get 'em, Jeff! Posted by Dennis Kiernan (Member # 12202) on :
"Todd has it right! Hand deliver it!"
Throw in some extra legwork for free?
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Claiming a copyright on your invoice and watermarking everything does not make it so.
Signs generally do not fall under copyright protection so your first step is a consultation with a copyright attorney to find out if your design/layout has enough original content to qualify for protection.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Live and let go. You will live longer!
Posted by Dennis Kiernan (Member # 12202) on :
Never!
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
What John. A few years back a customer emailed me some artwork that was produced by Bellandi Sings here in Tacoma. Asked me I could do this? I said "No, read the small print about coopywrite design etc." She didn't email me back.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I never get deposits on drawings but I have a disclaimer on the bottom that says "artwork is the property of bruce ward visual images. Reproducing could result in very high attorney and collection fees" I chose not to set a dollar ammount on mine.
as far as hand delivering what is that going to solve. Send it certified mail along with a letter that if this bill is not paid you will have to involve an attorney which you would rather not do.
The customer that took this is a low life POS. The sign company that did it may not have known. they customer might have cut your info off the quote, told the other company they had a cousin design it, hell you never know.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
..$200 is PEANUTS!!! You have their nads in a vise. So, make them suffer. To the tune of $2000!
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I gotta agree art done for someone is less expensive than stolen art....I would go for a price in the 4 digits myself.
THEY SUCK
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Thanx Glenn!
Say, Do yooz godda numbah fa dat goy? I mite need his soy'vuces one'a dees days . . . kno' whad I mean? bada-bing-bada-bang . . .
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
There are theft of service laws. Check that out...
Worked for me.
[ December 02, 2010, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: jack wills ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Call Sonny.
He went through the exact same thing a couple of years ago and took it through the legal process successfully. If I remember correctly, the courts awarded him more than expected.
Hope this helps... Rapid
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
The term is "Copyright" as in Right to Copy.
Even if you sell a painting to a client, he/she is NOT allowed to reproduce it and sell copies of it.
UNLESS you sell a design or artwork to a client "FREE & CLEAR" or some other similar term, meaning that you have signed off on any rights to that particular image.
As soon as pencil hits the paper, or bits hit the screen, that design is YOURS. You OWN it, and the rights to it.
Most of the members responses above are true, but when it comes to an artist's rights, why are most of you so willing to cave?
Our design is what sets us apart from the Joe down the street. Don't let someone else dictate what happens to YOUR PROPERTY!
Jeff, I hope you don't ask for $200, and then expect the Judge to think it's worth more. Ask for the $500... accept $200 if you must. The Judge may even add punitive damages in the $1,000's. Copyright infringement is not a minor issue.
Posted by Jeff Wisdom (Member # 6193) on :
Hey thanks everyone, for the input and emails. I am still considering my letter: I have decided to up my design fee to more of what the actual fee was and if they do fail to pay I will take them to court seems like I have sufficient evidence of "non-payment of services rendered"
Here is the letter: Any feedback?
As I was driving past Regency Inn last week I noticed you have your new sign completed, I also noticed that the sign is the exact reproduction of the design I provided for you.
Please refer to the proposal I sent you dated 9.1.2010 which states: Designs / layouts produced by Signworks remain the copyrighted property of Signworks and may not be copied at any time without written permission. A minimum charge of $200 will be billed for design time if this design is reproduced by individuals other than Signworks.
This is referred to as copyright infringement and non-payment of services rendered.
Enclosed you will find a copy of this proposal we sent along with an invoice for our design time. Your prompt payment of this invoice would be greatly appreciated. Failure to remit payment for the design will result in legal action.
Thank you,
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Jeff . . . that is a great letter.
But ... leave some rabbits in your hat.
I personally, would'nt mention the copy-right infringement sentence and the legal action info in the first letter - right off the bat.
The reason is - your first sentence and the paragraph quoting your claim are ample and polite and gives them the chance to save face for what may have been a mere oversight on their part.
Secondly, in case this polite remineder fails to produce payment - you will have the copyright info available to mention. If that fails you can then mention legal action.
Send each letter certified mail.
What this does is gives them 3 letters/chances to comply - each letter becoming progressively more forceful and then it gives you evidence to use in court, if it even comes to that.
Please keep us updated. This is very interesting to me as I love all opportunities to remain logical, polite, easy going and still get what I deserve all the time still maintaining a good business realtionship with a potential future customer. I realize there are simply some people who disallow this sort of common-business-sense interaction by going rant-crazy immediately - but then, who wants a realtionship with that kind'a client anyway?
In business, it's wise to not burn any bridges.
*Spell-CHECK-edit - also -do not mispell any words in your letters.
[ December 16, 2010, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
Here is ours on every sketch and contract:
"Artwork to be provided for an accurate layout for approval. E-mail of file to be in vectors-Illustrator AI format or bitmaps, if required to be in EPS format, 180 DPI actual finished size. Note PMS colors.
Images shown are for conceptual purposes. Actual placement, size, color & scale may vary slightly. Computer monitor calibrations are different and will show coloration differently. A test proof of the final product is available for an additional charge if exact color matching is required. Reflective and specialty materials view differently in various lighting conditions and will color shift when placed near or on complimenting or contrasting backgrounds. Our professional judgment is utilized in order to produce the best final product for our customers.
This original design is protected by US Copyright Title 17 code. It is intended for the recipient's information only and is not to be shared with any third party sources. By accepting this artwork, you agree not to modify directly or indirectly any of the materials in your possession, and will not permit any third party to do any of the foregoing. This conceptual drawing and its components are the property of Image Advantage, unless purchased by a specified design charge. Any violations will incur a substantial infringement charge. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED Copyright 2010 Image Advantage LLC
Terms: 50% down payment with signed contract, remainder due upon completion/delivery. Estimates valid 30 days from above date.
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
After 20 years of stolen designs, customers complaining about colors etc, this seems to work for me! Encompassed all sorts of problems into a legal "fine print".
Posted by Carol Kaufmann (Member # 2643) on :
Okay, I screwed up. I read this post back when it started and was in the middle of a project for the local hardware store. I knew Harry the owner and had done their signs for 19 years. We went back and forth for a few weeks with the design for a sign system on the front of the building. My last appointment to finalize, Harry wasn't there, and I left the design with his son. Called later to reschedule, and was told by the son that they were in no hurry and would start again after the holidays. My bad. I did not stamp the last design that I left. So Dec. 26 pull out of the grocery store and look across at the hardware store, and ta-da, there is a new sign...looks slightly similar to my design. Pulled across the street, and yep, the local sign scammer got me. White alupanel with a black digital print background and white copy with...yuck...red drop shadow. Spent Monday steaming, and wrote ol' Harry a letter. Actually sent the third less angry version. Local sign scammer totally distorted the design, like usual...knows enough about me going after him to do that...but Harry, never saw that coming. Lesson learned, even your long time clients, STILL HAVE TO PAY A DESIGN DEPOSIT. Slap me silly if I do that again!! Let's all have a healthy, prosperous, and joyous New Year....and may the lessons learned only help to make us stronger and smarter!
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote:Lesson learned, even your long time clients, STILL HAVE TO PAY A DESIGN DEPOSIT.
Yep. Live like brothers. Do business like strangers.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
We occasionally don't get full payment for the work we do. It seems to be a fact of life when you are in business these days. We make some phone calls and remind them of obligations by post and or email too. I'm polite but very firm. They do owe me the money.
But I'm only willing to go so far. The folks who owe me the money are obviously not people I want to continue doing business with. They have a problem. I do NOT take ownership of their problem. It's time to move on. Taking someone to court over some minor amount is taking ownership of their problem. You are going to have to live with it until the date comes up. You have to travel to court and prepare your case... all this takes time. I'll bet each time you think about it and deal with it your blood pressure will jump a notch or two. Even you are successful in court a judgement often means nothing to these folks. To get your money you will have to continue to fight and fight and fight.
I have much better things to do with people I would much rather deal with.
That's why I am more than eager to cave in situations like this. And learn from MY mistakes too...
-grampa dan
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
I'll be waiting to hear what happens!!! keep us updated!!!
Posted by Erik Winkler (Member # 9040) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neil D. Butler: You Said Minimum charge of $200.00 for design, so charge the thieves $400.00... Honestly this just boils my blood.
I have exactly the same feeling as Neil.
Erik
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
That happened to me once. I phoned the client, who happened to be a municipality, and asked the difference between the price thecompetition gave and the price I gave. And I charged them that. I said to the guy, look, obviously they did not charge you for design did they? And he said no. And I said well we would have been the same price then, only we would have bricked the back of the walls that you see as you are leaving town. Sometimes you gotta think Mike. And sent the bill.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Carol, I'll send a contingency over to the hardware store to reconfigure the owner's thinking. You just say the word, girl, and it will be so. Sometimes deposits, contracts, clauses and handshakes aren't enough, but a STERN TALKING TOO by big nasty looking thugs will straighten the wayward soul right out.
Have a good NEW YEAR !!!!
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I see the two ends of the spectrum with these problem customers.
One is passive and the other is militant.
I believe being passive is one very big reason we have so many problems with design theft in the first place.
Sure its not worth worrying about. Sure, it could cost more in lost time. But that is just the short run effects.
The long run is no one respects the designer. Thus it actually cost every one lots more. Look at all those posts here and every where about some client thieving a design.
It happens way too much. If every one makes the effort to get their work protected with good verbiage on their paperwork,, and then every one makes the decision to spank the next available design thief,,, Soon lots of potential thieving clients would never do it in the first place.
I watched it happen first hand. The client design thief went to court. Took a beating from the judge and had to pay. It didn't take long for that to get around the business community. I didn't see any design theft in town ever again.
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