Over the years I've been fortunate enough to do some nice work for the surrounding towns in my area. Not all, but some.
Usually, I will receive a call from some city official and they'll want to know about some park sign or city hall project we've done. There will be a noticeable gasp on the other end when we get to the cost discussion, but usually there can be some adjustments made in what they want and what they can actually afford.
We have done a considerable amount of city parks sign in our area until recently when some new folks in the administration decided to go with someone else with a new design and construction. What was produced was not terrible, but just didn't look all that great, plus the lifespan will probably be a lot shorter than what we were providing.
Recently, the city received some grant money for signage on some park trails and main identifications. We were contacted to bid on the work. They didn't have any specs but just wanted them done like what had been done previously by another company. There were 10 signs.
Even though I tried to convince the powers-that-be that another direction would produce a better looking and longer lasting sign, they were just taking bids on what they presently had. I knew that it was probably a waste of time but I still went out, took photos, measurements, and figured the work.
When I submitted by price the "suit" almost had a heart attack. My price was over twice what they had been paying, and they considered what they were paying was "highway robbery". The purpose in sending out for bids was to try to get something cheaper.
What they were paying would hardly cover my cost of materials...but granted, I would use a higher quality product.
I know this is not a new trend, but it seems to be happening more and more. Over the past few years we have lost several old time clients simply because of price, even though they said we did the best work around.
Fifty years in this business has provided me with the opportunity to live my dream. Throughout that time there has always been those that considered price as the bottom line (and I had no argument with them), but in my later years it seems to be happening more and more.
Just an old guy babbling out loud. Thanks for listening.
Posted by Pam Eddy (Member # 1858) on :
Same here Ray. I'm hoping one day they will see how much it's costing to keep replacing poor quality, cheap signs.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
It's a sign of the times, Ray. Every day, in more and more aspects of our lives, quick and cheap is replacing the traditional way of doing a good job for a fair price.
Very sad.......
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
In the last couple of years people have had a tough time justifying (or affording) the high end work. Then there are those who have the idea that things should just be cheap. There is no helping them I'm afraid.
Instead we focus on a very narrow segment of the market that wants top quality dimensional signs... and are prepared to pay for them.
It's my feeling that while they are still out there in considerable numbers, most likely you will not find a lot of them in the traditional marketplace. You have to think outside the box.
Believe me I hear that GASP a lot when it comes to selling my work. I've even heard screams and some mighty profanity (more than I like) when folks hear my prices. When I hear that reaction I know these folks aren't my customer... no problem.
There seems to be nine of those kind of folks for each quality one I find. Even these folks may swallow noticeable when they hear the price they accept that quality costs. What I offer doesn't come cheap or easy.
I simply cast my net in much bigger circles, using the internet and trade shows to get the word out about the very different kind of work we do. The reality is that it has never been easier to get the word out and in the process probably sell more of this type work than ever before.
The economy here is improving quickly and from what I see there are signs of recovery all around the country. My advice to those who want to do this type of quality work is to prepare sample pieces and revamp your website ad other promotional material in preparation for the good times that are bound to return. Be ready while everyone else is holding back.
-grampa dan
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
I certainly agree with Dan and find that there still are those that want good, quality work...but they are not being found where we have traditionally been receiving our calls. And they are becoming fewer and farther between, at least in my experience.
Thinking outside the box is becoming the norm - or should be.
My brain is tired. Along with other parts of me. Is there some USB cable that I can just plug into Dan?
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
Be glad you were born at just the right time.. and had the opportunity to live a dream. Most people dont have that...
Posted by Kevin Gaffney (Member # 4240) on :
Some of the budgets here are so tight, particularly with new businesses, I have been asked twice in last few weeks to price correx shopfront signs. Lost both projects because I refused to drop my standards that low. Had a customer Friday who can't afford a shopfront signet all for a new shop sends opening. Instead she has organised a ten foot banner with someone else to cover existing sign. She is paying 35 euros for the banner and asked if I could beatbthat. I laughed but actually got a decent amount of indoor digital prints. Shouldn't be too long beforevthese loballers disappear for good hopefully from our profession
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Raymond's post got me reflecting, and Dan's input always inspires me to look a little deeper.
Tonight is the eve of Canada's 98 annual Grey Cup Game and it's here in Edmonton. Not including family, CFL Football is my greatest passion outside of signs. From June to November I rarely miss a home game. Although my team is not playing, tomorrow I'll be in the stands with my son Scott and best friend Marv. and for a bit of time, that will be my only care in the world.
Most of us enjoy living through others whether music, sport, cinema or any number of diversions. While many people succeed in vocations, others excel. We who succeed marvel at those who excel. We can be tempted to say, "They are fortunate, they have a God given talent" or "Geez, the're lucky, always in the right place at the right time".
In my opinion, it is no big magic secret. It consists of a seed of ability; the rest simply knowledge (learned), passion and hard work. Granted, general health and physical condition eliminate many paths. That, however only serves to simplify the choices.
Those who excel, and I'm not one of them, are not so tempted to steer their energy to mindless diversions that don't directly or indirectly feed their core passion.
I've often thought I've wasted so much time trying to be someone I'm not. I'm a very good technical problem solver. "This is impossible, this will never work, this is ruined"... I love hearing these words. I love being creative, not so much artistically, but figuring out (inventing if you will) a way around a challenge. Another persons "problem" is my challenge.
In running a small business, I've limited my chance to excel, by having to deal with so many "jobs" that just "get in the way". My least favorite of which has been that of employer and manager for 25 years.
As I reflect back though, I have no regrets. I am "comfortable", I have my most treasured thing in life... my family, and I have freedom to do the things I really enjoy.
There have been many difficult challenges along the way and there will be more to come. I've known despair, the feeling of hopelessness and even failure. I've known success and happiness too. After all it's said and done, "I'm the richest man I know". I marvel at those that excel, but I don't envy them, it just wasn't for me.
Take heart, be proud of who you are. You are important.
Speaking of important... "Go Riders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
I second the e-motion.... GO RIDERS!!!!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
nice posts... all across the board!
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
This has been going on here for the past 4 years. No quality, no talent, not well designed, cheap fabrication. It matters not HOW MUCH IS IT??!!
They don't care anymore! I was having a conversation with 2 designers, who specialized in web and logos. They have no business either and was talking about how the town is dead. For God sakes the city of Montgomery sign shop buys their signs from out of town, let me put that another way. The city makes ME pay taxes and they buy their junk out of town.
What do we do? I have signed up as a vendor for the feds, county, city(haha) and military. Im reaching out further to others that have new industries that may need a large quantity of signs. It's very hard right now all across the board. The only companies around here thats kicking butt are mortgage companies, and thats over refi's.
BUT on a happy note, the low end POS shops are gone and a huigh quantity of PITA realtors are gone and you can get some sign stuff real cheap right now
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
digital prints on dibond and alupanel is pretty much how all my signs are made. just like how cut vinyl killed the painter...digital will kill the vinyl cutter. If its more than 2 colors, I'd much rather print, laminate and stick than weed, tape and have to measure where the lines go. I've had my printer for 6 yrs(next month) and I haven't come across any prints that I've done that are all faded. Times are a changin'.....
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Ray, did you get any calls for Black Friday Specials from any of these municipalities?
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
The Cut Throat companies will always be there, don't kid yourself, some will go, others will take their place. I like Karen print just about everything now, Trucks still get a fair share of Cut Vinyl, but regular signs get the wide format treatment. I consider wide format as just another tool, I can design a better sign, it can be edited easily, I can just go into archives, and call up the same job I did 10 years ago and duplicate it exactly... the Bottom line here is you have to eat to live. Same goes for the 3-D Signs, some still do them by hand, others on the router, The router is just another tool same as the printer. If I just did things by hand, then I'd be out of business, same as the others here who did not adapt... they are gone! I still get a chance to Airbrush and stripe so that creative side still gets a fix every now and then... This business of people saying they won't lower their standards is kind of disturbing to me..You can still design and produce a better sign, you are just using a different medium, from a fax to email, which is better? Do any of you still fax a layout? I don't think so.... I know most on here are just one person home based shops, I'm Not, I have a store front, a showroom, 6 employees, and we're busy as can be, we don't stop.. I don't have to be there all the time, it's not luck it's by design. I'm rambling, I know.
Don't give in if you don't have to, Don't be too proud to compromise... Life is full of Compromises.. Just adapt, and still do a better sign, no matter what the medium is.
Now I have take my own advice to heart.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
You're lucky Karyn, for not having fading problems. Maybe because you laminate, or maybe the sun's not so hot up there.
Down here, we have so many billboards with faded printed banners, cheapo channel letters with faded vinyl faces (instead of colored plex), multiple stores with coro "permanent" business signs (and faded printed banners).
Small towns are having problems all over. We have businesses come in; and 6 months later, they're gone...they don't want to spend money to look professional (their problem), or advertise.
One of the biggest problems we face here is the changing shopping habits. Our town is basically a 9-5 event; many shops closed on Wednesday, and none open on Sunday. I recently went to a city government seminar, where the instructor told us that "today, 67% of all retail sales are made after 6pm, or on Sundays". Where does that leave our town??? But try to communicate that!
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Honestly, top quality hand work still sells for whatever you feel is an honest fair price. The key is to just find the clients! I service some 250 new car agencies. I get calls from maybe five new stores a year and they ask for a design. After they see a good presentation of what I recommend on the front of the store photograph, they usually ask only when I can schedule them. I bang them out, send them a bill and get the check within two weeks....and no, price was never mentioned. I have a general rate guide that I follow and rarely do the newbies ever ask about price. The key? WHEN. They want and you give fast! Most retailers have huge ad budgets, despite what they really say, so it really is no big deal getting something they really want. Cities and municipalities? Beaurocrats generally are dime pinchers.
Good design, coupled with genuine great service is the secret. I have virtually no competition out as far as 300 miles. I email market, I send snail mail flyers, I still go make many cold calls. Sure I have lost a few clients to perforated digital graphics, but the look is just not the same and I am seeing some return to my 'hand done graphics' as a result.
Now if I were doing work where there were many others who competed with me, price and quality would be the selling points. Like Dan's fabulous 3D work and murals, and like many others here, who really do some totally original and outstanding work, there never seems to be a shortage of demand for top notch creativity.
We all have to dig deeper into our creative soul. How do we make them better? How do we make that top shelf stretch and get that amazing look? We know we have it in us and it has nothing to do with price or how cheaply we can make something. Think top quality and dazzling results and the competition seems to dissappear in your niche....and remember, if you are not losing some over high price, then you are obviously not charging enough! Takes guts and takes really looking at what is great out there to stimulate the best from us. Why should we settle for anything less? With all of you, here at Letterville, we share our best. I do not know any other industry where there is so much shared enthusiasm and creativity. We are so lucky to have Barb abd Steve to have developed this community of inspiration. Now. we just have to use it to our advantage.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Dale, I have trucks out there wrapped in Vinyl that I did over 5 years ago that look as good today as when I did them.. No Kidding.. that's with extreme temperature changes, Ice Snow Slush, heat, yes we can get it hot here, but even worse than that is UV. And we have very high UV index here.. and yes I laminate.. Like everyone should.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote: "I'm the richest man I know."
Duncan - that speaks volumes. We cannot forget the many blessings we all enjoy outside of the usual and worrisome aspects of life.
Some really good posts here. Have a great day everyone, and I sincerely hope all experience great fortunes this year; financially as well as in all areas that make life so magnificent.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
What Karen, said. But, there was way more romance with the old sign colors (paint) and the making of patterns (in the storage bin) was like an investment program. Lettering trucks meant that they brought the material for you to use. You already had most of the paint needed and a little bit of slingin' made your pockets feel full. I'm not an accountant, but I personally believe we made more money in the long run with smart choices than today. I don't think knocking out a showcard today using electronics would be as profitable.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I don't think knocking out a showcard today using electronics would be as profitable. ___________________________________________________
It wouldnt because someone else would knock it out for half of what you would. And then someone else would knock off 1/4 of the half and we just spiral down
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
Now here we have some of the finest, educational,inspirational, intelligent posts. I happen to be one of the lucky people who worked for years when things were much simpler. Like way back when there were no sign permits, or even sales taxes, and especially no computers. The old ways are the way of the past.Survival means modernize and keep up with the trends. Bill
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Duncan, one of the best posts ever. Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Bill, Honestly you could'nt have said it any better... I find myself reflecting on the way we did things years ago as well, I was fortunate enough to learn this trade the same way as you did, all BC. From Darkroom work, making Positives, using those huge process Cameras, making Screens, Pounce patterns, projecting Letreset, Breathing in Chalk, and then the GranDaddy of them all.. learning to hand letter... What a profession that was and for some, still is... Yes we made a lot more money for ourselves back then,, but what is done is done, what is past and obsolete well.....
Posted by Donald Miner (Member # 6472) on :
But best of all we still have each other and we still have the memories. The best to one and all! Don
Posted by Blake Koehn (Member # 5984) on :
The worst thing about being rich is...
You have to put up with rich friends!
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Mr.Ray, great post. Hopefully, a more business-minded administration will assume office in the near future and the economy will be revived. Or, this could be the on-set of events mentioned many moons ago in our most historic record on earth. Having carefully chosen this PC wording, I will not comment further on my educated opinion.
Blake - it's been the same way here - and all over Alabama really. For the last 3 years, work has been incrementally slowing down and grinding to a halt at times. It picks back up again in small waves, but while I'm doin' those jobs, the phone is'nt ringing. There's a privately-owned quicky-sticky that opened in the last coupl'a years and no tellin' how busy they are with the cheap junk. The bright side is that stuff should just about be peeling, fading, cracking and otherwise failing and some of those clients will start sittin'-up and lookin' around at reality.
I had to take a part-time job and now it's gettin' to where my boss is not even gettin a job a month. I'm considering applying with Hyndai . . . after I learn how to spell it. Anyone wanna go to South Korea for 6-9 months for $11 an hr.? I hear you can pull down $18 an hr.when you get back stateside to the main plant.
Meanwhile, with winter setting in, 2 particular on-site job-quotes that have FINALLY been accepted but going to have to wait 'til spring even tho' I explained this to them and reminded them a couple of times. When they finally called they asked, 'How soon can you start?' 'Oh, gee, I dunno . . . in about THREE TO FOUR MONTHS?'
Ya know . . . if you can't find the humour in this world ya ain't gonna last . . .
Another signature: "The world would be a perfect place if it was'nt for all these people . . ." Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
As people are continually asking, "when will things get back to normal?", the answer seems to be that this is the new normal.
I've never been one to be able to foretell the future, but it seems like we are settling in for a long, dry spell.
We put up a metal letter job this morning and sold some assorted signs for a new apartment complex, but when those are finished we will have caught up with all our back-log of jobs.
I'm trying to put on my "Dan face" every morning now.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Great post!
My thoughts:
Folks seem to be in a "tire kicking" mindset these days. No doubt it's related to the overall economic times. Those of us who have at least part of their services dedicated to customers who have a little extra mad money around are going to have to diversify to keep going. Adapt or close your doors.
Folks like you, Raymond, who make top notch signs have always flourished in times when "keeping up with the Joneses" was what it was all about. If a Chapman sign was on 1 business then the competing businesses had get one of comparable quality or appear to be not quite equal. Success breeds success was the norm, but now the Joneses are feeling a financial pinch and it trickles down from there.
It has become fashionable to at least appear to be thrifty ... unless you're a big time banker ... they'll take their bonuses and go hide on their yachts.
Will it all come back? Of course it will, it's human nature. The Joneses are just taking a nap. I predict next year at this time the Chapman Sign Studio will be under siege, because somebody's going to say, "I want to look better than my competition."
Our work has already come roaring back after a year where we got caught up with our back-logs several times. Now Jane's got me scheduled here there and everywhere which is why I don't get on this board much.
People who do good work will always be around, it's just that we hit and economic rough patch, that's all. When the dust settles from it all a lot of shops that have been just barely making it will have to adapt or close. That's sad, but it's always been that way. But Raymond Chapman ain't gonna be one of them.
Good luck to all who are still in the rough patch!
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
I know what you mean Ray. People are choosing price over quality more and more. And people here(my area) who already have a career and take up signmaking as a hobby or to make extra money drive the prices down to where we are considered greedy. That, coupled with dry spells makes one wonder. I just moved my shop to a home based one, and that scared me too. But, it seems most of my customers are staying loyal. Im not near retirement age, so I have to keep plugging.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Bill - Thank you for your confidence in my future. Over the length of my career I've always been the eternal optimist (maybe a little less than Dan, but still seeing the glass as half full), but with this last "recession" my energy level has decreased and the dream has diminished.
Every day is still filled with doing exactly what I have always wanted to do, but some of the "spark" is gone.
My eye has always been on the design and how to improve the quality and look of each project. Little attention was given to the business of doing business and the normal financial goals of any organization. Somehow, it would just work itself out...and that's not a good plan, except for failure.
I have no regrets for what I was able to do over the past 50 plus years. It was certainly better than working for a living!
Many of my age group have spent their lives in drudgery, waiting until they could retire and do what they wanted to do all their lives. I've been fortunate enough to have been doing that all my life. I am blessed.
My disappointment is that I didn't consider my family more closely and prepared better for them financially, so that these later years could be more comfortable rather than to continually having to keep the wolf from the door.
Some in our profession have been able to combine fantastic creative ability with sound business principles. My hat is off to them. I'm just not one of them.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining or trying to blame someone for my situation. My situation is the result of my choices. Still, I am extremely fortunate to be able to do something everyday that many would like to do, rather than being trapped in a small cubicle or standing on an assembly line.
Whatever the future holds will still have me involved in this great craft....just maybe in a different venue.
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