I thought my fellow signmakers would find this information on a failed project both interesting and informative....This beautiful new $1.65 Million Wayfinding signage project began failing within days - a horrible situation for sure.
Below are three links to articles printed in the Asheville Citizens Times newspaper.
If they were stupid enough to spend an average of $6000.00 a piece for 300 signs in the first place, why should they be surprised that they got shafted? The largest sign I saw couldn't have been much larger than a 4'x8' vertical aluminum panel. Mind you a couple or three of those kiosk type directory signs might bring in 6k but something's rotten in denmark here. I'd like to hire that sign company's saleman,..he hit a homerun on this one,....for that kind of money they can do those directional panels two or three times and still make a hefty profit,...how many digital printers can you purchase with 1.8 million, at least a half dozen or so,....
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Yep, I'd say they were peeling.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
It looks like a 1.8 million dollar project to me... especially the parking ID and large freestanding ID signs...
Having done quite a few city wayfinding projects myself, I have not heard of any process other than screen printing with 3M's translucent ink process that will last any amount of acceptable time. I ask from time to time about this, and no one suggest digitally printing reflective street signs because they do not last as long as the screen printed ones. The problem with screen printing a huge panel like that is the color can sometimes look a little mottled.
Bad spec, poor fabrication choice on the sign shop's part, bad material, bad ink or poor install... a lot can happen. Someone is going to be eating a lot of peeling vinyl...
[ July 15, 2010, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
...just glad it's not me!
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Cueing Roger Bailey...... in 4....3....2...1...
Go......
Posted by Ben Diaz (Member # 7319) on :
My guess is they forgot to take the plastic off before they put the vinyl on.
Posted by Rene Giroux (Member # 4980) on :
Who ever said 'sticker signs' weren't appeeling!!!
Spend all that money on the architect and hand the job out to the lowest bidder...
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I think Ben might have it right... or could it be... that the 3M reflective is crap... just like the 3M reflective I used to use years ago, that completely delaminated from the glue..
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
It looks like the reflective is tight on there though. We were just guessing that what happened was those reflective panels often come with a clear plastic protective sheet that is SUPPOSED to be removed before the signs are lettered, just like you alumalite, etc. does. Nobody told the guys in the shop, "Hey, don't forget to take that liner off." and they lettered them all up and sent them out. OOPS!
Posted by Ben Diaz (Member # 7319) on :
That picture is exactly what happens if you forget to take off the plastic sheeting before applying prints. Unfortunately I know this from experience (just not on a $1.65 million job.) I could see where the sign shop would be reluctant to admit this is what happened, but the positives are that at least the signs won't need to be redesigned, and at least the print is the only thing failing (so it's not a total loss.) Still, this has to be an expensive lesson to learn.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
agree. That is total failure. It has to be the liner...
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
Haha... I did that once but I caught it before it went out the door. Not a million dollar project either but I won't do it again.
Posted by Ben Diaz (Member # 7319) on :
I did it on a real estate sign. It was an 18x24 .040 aluminum sheet that you set in one of those frames. I covered both sides with prints. One side still had the plastic on it. A few weeks later the customer came back in and said the graphics failed on the one side but not the other. It's one of those mistakes that sticks with you, and I haven't messed that up since.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
I wonder how long they expected their digital-print-on-clear over the reflective to last anyway...?
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Another posibility, I talk to 6 or 8 sign shops a month, about 3 of them had bonding issues because of cleaning with, yep, WINDEX.
Then theres the others that use paint solvents.
Roger
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
That is actually wrinkling even in from the edge... it has to be the clear protective film.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I know I am not too bright...
But the signage in question is current? as in 2010?
How does Kelly's 2008 picture relate?
Sorry if I missed something Kelly.
Posted by Debra Carr (Member # 6986) on :
Dave, I have no clue why the year 2008 show up in the corner of the photo in Kelly's post. These signs were just installed a few weeks ago. If you click on this link by John Boyle, published July 3, 2010 12:15 am - you will see the published photo. http://m.citizentimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2010307030033 Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
That is just a direct link to a picture in one of the links Debra posted, I suspect the photographer has a watermark that needs to be updated that automatically goes on all his/her photos.
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
So....300 didn't all get done at one time. They had to be stacked up around the shop in various stages of production. You're telling me that none of the signs were showing signs of failure when they were being installed?
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
We were JUST there on June 9th. I remarked how nice the signs looked downtown...I didn't notice any failure then...but again, it wasn't 100+ degrees that week... only mid to upper eighties...
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
BTW, why didn't they use a NC co? Why Pennsylvania? Their hotel tax going to another state...nice...
Posted by Bob Sauls (Member # 11321) on :
I hurt for them. this is so sad.This poor guy went from the job of a lifetime to losing it all. I'll bet he even went in debt to do it.
Posted by Scott Eckland (Member # 3036) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ben Diaz: My guess is they forgot to take the plastic off before they put the vinyl on.
I would agree with Ben...I've seen this happen before with polycarb on a job I took over from another sign company...a little picking and the protective film came right off...with the graphic.
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob Sauls: I hurt for them. this is so sad.This poor guy went from the job of a lifetime to losing it all. I'll bet he even went in debt to do it.
If all they've got to do is repair the faces they should be okay. It's gonna hurt but hopefully it's not a business killer.
Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
...this trick can also be used when screenprinting on plexi or metal blanks...washes off easy...just peel.
Posted by Debra Carr (Member # 6986) on :
The tremendous cost of this failed project can most likely be traced back to one of the newspaper articles, saying the job was "a collaboration of various government and public organizations"...to that effect.
Sorta like those 'shovel-ready' construction job signs seen along many federal highways, that our gov'mint shelled out over 7 grand apiece for....
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
What a mess! All the finger pointing, reminds me of the BP mess in the Gulf Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
That's gonna hurt big time.
On a side note, this jumped out at me...
"The 3M Corp. warranties signs made with 3930 and its own vinyl covering, but in this case a clear film from another manufacturer went over the 3930 and apparently failed..."
And this is the exact reason why I will not warranty a job when 2 different material manufacturers are used. However, even this is not a guarantee of success.
Whoever looses on this one, I'll have to ask, was it worth saving a few cents per square foot of material?
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