Hi, My Dad's starting a business in a new location, and the landlord has specified that the signage above the door has to be push-through back-lit illuminated letters in the business logo.
The light box can be in MDF, 6 ft x 1 ft, with the face in opal (murky white) acrylic.
I'm guessing that the idea is rout out letter holes, and cut fresh letters in clear acrylic (1/4" thick?), as well as in the original opal (1/8" thick?), and glue them upon each other, and shove them in- or maybe the opal top ones coule be oversize a bit.
I haven't done that before, and want to help him out- any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated.
My other query is how many fluro tubes would be normal for this? (an electrician will connect them up.)
What glue is appropriate to stick the acrylic back together?
Then secondly they want a 20" cube of acrylic material, illuminated inside, with the busines logo on the outside-all 4 sides. It won't rotate, but will be fixed, 20" above the door sign box. The shop is inside a shopping centre, so none of this will be in the weather.
I'm debating whether to heat/bend the acrylic for four sides, or to cut 6 square pieces on the router and glue them together like the sides of a die/dice. I'm uncertain what internal framing you'd have if any.
Any advice on that type of project would be appreciated, too, thanks!
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Ian, I recently did a sign similar to this.... I'll post a few pics here of how I did it.
I'm not saying this is the right way or the easiest way.... I just tend to do stuff by the seat of my pants, make it up as I go.... but this project worked out nicely, and client was really happy.
Project: Build a sign to go above the 'Gold Lounge' that says 'High Limits'. They wanted it to look like the 'lounge' sign....
I went to my brother-in-law Blake Koehn's place (merchant here who offers custom routing www.prodigitalsupply.com ) and cut my aluminum face on his router. He has since built a new (much faster and more accurate) router and sold the Shopbot. I built the can out of 1/8" aluminum...
I also took a piece of 1/2" thick white acrylic and we routed the letters out of that...
Back home, I welded up the can out of 1/8" aluminum. I was about out of argon, so forgive my splattered up aluminum welding...
Another view from the other side...
I sprayed the can with etching primer, then painted it with that white Rustoleum epoxy paint they sell for appliances. Turned out with a nice thick, hard, shiny white coating...
[ June 04, 2010, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
The white letters needed to be coated with 3m Translucent gold vinyl, so I just squeegeed it on and trimmed around the letters with an Xacto... worked beautifully.
I then cut a piece of 1/4" clear acrylic and installed it inside the can. My letters were so close to the bottom of the sign, I had to notch my acrylic a little for my welds. I put it in with VHB tape.
Since I had to sand a little and round a few of the outside corners the router left, I was a little worried about light showing around the letters, so I cut a white vinyl piece that lapped under the letters by 1/16th of an inch and applied it to the front of the acrylic before putting it in...
I then used acrylic glue, which is very similar to PVC glue to bond the white acrylic letters to the clear acrylic... it's a clear glue that the light shines through perfectly. I used the thicker glue, not the super runny stuff. I just VHB'd the center of the 'G' in later.
To light it, I used USLED led lights. They come with a 3m tape on the back and are great to work with. That column this sign was mounted on was actually built out of aluminum and had a vinyl wrap on it, so I was able to just remove the vinyl wrap behind the sign, apply the lighting right to the column and mount the sign over the top. I just screwed some angle to the aluminum column, slid the sign over it, put a few screws into it to hold it and it was done.
Since the draw is so minimal on the LED's the casino electricians tied the wiring right into the wiring for the rest of the sign... the letters aren't quite as bright as they look in the picture... I need to get some better lower contrast photos of the sign...
Here are the LED's I used...
Like I said, the project turned out great and they are really happy with it.
[ June 04, 2010, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Ian, First thing. Your Cabinet being in MDF.. A big NoNo. Either Build you frame from welded steel or Alum and wrap in in Alum or you can order a precut extruded Alum Kit from Signcomp (This is what we do.) for probably less then you could buy the materials. A 1x6 Sf 6" breakdown is $108 for the frame.. You still need to get the all the guts but they can also punch your alum for the Bulb sockets. You would want your Cabinet 73" Long.. You add 1 inch for your length for your wireways and Spring Sockets. The Nice thing about these kits is they Come in all Mitered with keyways and ready to go.. You can assemble them with 3/16 PoP Rivets or What I do is Spot/Stitch Weld them from the inside
You could get away with 1 72HO Bulb, but I would use 2. I like my Lighted signs to be seen from space.
Now for the Push Throughs. I have seen them done with 2 different colors of plex but I prefer to use MaxMetal for my face and 1/2 Clear Acrylic for my Lettering. This allows only the Lettering to light up and in my opinion draws your eyes to the message on the instead of the whole box.
To do this.. I use Artcam and it has a toolpath option called Inlays. This toolpath takes into account the size bit your using and rounds off the sharp insides of the letters to compensate for the bit diameter along with an allowance that you apply st the letters slide through easily. I usually use .03 on the female cut. (Alum) and a .02 on the acrylic Male cuts set at .4 depth on 1/2 materail allowing .1 material left as your Flange to keep the Letters from falling through.
After the letters are cut I will apply my translucent vinyl or Diffuser to back sides or front of the letters depend in on what effect I am looking for. We will also Lightly sand the face of some letters once in awhile to give it a frosted effect and this causes the light to refract differently.
This is the basic rundown. If you need more Help feel free to contact me. As you need to get a certain size ballast for the Lights and Ect.. All I use now Electronic Ballasts instead of the Old magnitic. Much less hassle to wire and seem to last longer and are now comparably priced.
Also I don't know if in Oz you're required to have the Sign UL Listed or not. So you would need to check with your local code requirements. Here in the States it Varies from City to City but I just build all my signs to UL/NEC standards to avoid any hassles at a later date..
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Whoops Jon and I were writing at the same time.. Nice Sign Jon.
Here are some better Pics of the way I did it.
You can see the flange around the "Gorge Lettering"
Close up of the Pushed through
Finished Welded Cabinet befor Painting
Crappy Lighted Photo.. This sign was lighted with Neon.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Thank you Jon and Bill- great head-start.
(Why the no-no on MDF as a case?)
I'm doubtful about those brands of kits etc being available here- but you can get aluminium extrusions for the carcase.
Have you just got the letters pushed through, Bill, or also glued in place? What's UL listing?
Thanks again_ I appreciate the feedback.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Ian,
MDF is Flammable. IF there is a Short you can catch the Sign on Fire. We had a Guy here putting NEON on MDO Backgrounds for awhile and had a few fires caused because of that.(HE was using cheap/used GTO and they would arc to the mounting Screw) Rare but does Happen and You can't Ground MDF but on the Nice side It doesn't Conduct Electricity but everything else your putting in the sign Does.
Whoops on the Push threw, Yes They are Epoxied and Siliconed in from the back. On larger sign faces where I use .80 or .125 Thick Alum I will use a Stud welder and bolt the plex in and seal with silicone.
Here in the States some cities require your Electric Signs have a UL Label.. UL stands for Underwriters Laboratories meaning you built it to meet a strict set of guidelines and by putting that sticker on it your verifying that you follow those guidelines and each sticker has a serial Number that can be traced back to who ever built the sign so if you cut corners and cause a fire or electrocute someone, the man can find out who's responsible.
If you look on a Sign Ballast you will see a little stamp or sticker somewhere on it with a UL listing if it was made in the states.
In Canada, your standard is 'Canadian Standards Association (CSA)' but it's pretty much the same standard as UL.
You can technically can use MDF/MDO (I used to design large show exhibits), but must coat it with a listed fire retardant paint that meets your version of it's standard... we have ASTME and Class ratings here in the states that get the substrate to meet the UL standard. All around, it's simply safer to use Aluminum (or steel)
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
On the push through, (where possible) I prefer to use a thicker stock or acrylic, and hog out the letters/graphic and leave a lip for the acrylic to attach to the inside of the sign cabinet. It gets rid of gluing and you have no problems or letters popping off months or years later.
[ June 05, 2010, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
