Actually, I wanted to post a comment on a the topic: "Not really in the Letterheads Spirit", started by Henry Barker on April 6th, 2009, but the topic was locked.
I was a contributing artist to LHF, until I was deemed "unhappy" by Chuck, and since he didn't "like my tone" on a phone call HE made to me, he deleted me and my fonts right off his site. I wrote him a letter to see if I could get him to reconsider. I received a very rude reply back, with his closing statement of, "Lay off the pot Larry, it's making you paranoid." Shows you how much he knows, I don't smoke pot. He's just a diminutive little weasel, that has no clue on how to discuss any issue with anyone. It's his way, or the highway. What a total ass! Please, don't buy anything from that jerk!
Sincerely, Larry White
[ December 20, 2009, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Larry White ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Wow!
Which were the fonts you developed?
Posted by Larry White (Member # 3999) on :
I had the fonts, "Bill Blake" and "United Cigar Stores".
Just might make some sense to move on....
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Chuck has a knack for winning enemies and influencing people. I wonder if he read a book for that talent, or if he just skipped reading the one that Carnegie wrote.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Hey, Larry- are you free then to sell your own fonts? If so, where?
Posted by Phillip Newell (Member # 4618) on :
His loss. Those are a couple of great fonts.
I'd be interested to know if they're available anywhere else too
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I have to believe the old adage pride goeth before the fall will play out with Chuck.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Myfonts is the best site on the web to sell fonts. Research shows they are the best thing going when it comes sales.
But you have to get yer fonts noticed, and that takes awhile. I recommend free "limited character" downloads of your fonts at Dafont.com and fontspace.com.
It is hard to go out on your own as an unknown and sales can sometimes be dismal and disturbing, but it can be done.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I believe the first comment on that TechDirt article sums it up quite nicely.
Posted by Larry White (Member # 3999) on :
Thanks for the comments. I will investigate those other avenues to publish my stuff. This whole thing caught me way off guard, came out of nowhere. I'll get over it...and when I do, I'll be glad I don't have to deal with the likes of Chucky.
Just might make some sense to move on....
Have a wonderful Holiday! -Larry
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Larry,
Clearly this gets very personal for me. I'd bend over backwards to sell a font in this environment. I've even made deals over the phone and over the net when people really want my stuff but there is some issue at hand.
I give away thousands of "limited version" fonts a month in the hopes of just selling a few. And it works. Sadly, I'm not in a position to sell other peoples fonts, and one of the many reasons is that I don't want them upset with me when their font does poorly and just doesn't sell. It's something I can't control.
Still, I have promoted others in the past, tried to help them out where I can (sometimes successfully, other times not very successful at all as no one can predict the market).
If there is any way I can help you out, let me know. I have considered a "FRIENDS OF THE FONTRY" page on my site where I can promote and aim visitors to other font designers out there who may not have the venue or visibility they need to make their products known.
Just a thought. Opinions??? There have been enough emails lately from fellow font designers to probably warrant doing this.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
The fontry has some great fonts.
I have your fonts. I use them all the time. I took advantage of some offer a while ago and got a whole load of them.
I think it would be a great idea to have other ways to get some contact with good font makers.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Mike, Why Couldn't a Person (You since you have the outlet already setup)Put together a Font section (Lack of a limited vocabulary on my part) A flea Market/Co-Op for the font designers. With Paypal tools it is very easy to track the sales of a specific item and you take a small percentage 20%-30% or so. To cover costs and a small profit.(I know, A real small profit.) The designer can register with you on the web or phone. It's up to the designer to market, Or you can all pull your resources to Advertise.Together. I have seen it happen around here locally with artists and it seems to work very well. Even with all the Artistic Egos..
Just a thought.. I am web design challenged so If its to much work for something like that then Sorry for the idea.
The Fontry CO-OP
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I think it's time some of these font designers might want to consider cutting ties with Letterhead Fonts and hook up with the Fontry. I feel Mike has a better marketing plan and definitely better customer service.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I would go out of my way to buy fonts from the Fontry if that would ever happen.... as it is now, (and I've felt this way for a long time) I would turn down a job before I'd purchase a font at Letterhead Fonts.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
well thanx for the encouragement, youse guys ... I've no desire to actually get a cut of other people's font profits, but I've toyed with the idea of a single site/page that displays everyone's wares and then directs them to the most logical place to make the purchase: myfonts.com. Overall, you just can't beat what they have to offer in the way of service (they unfortunately do take a 50% cut--dangit!!!)
I too am too web-challenged to do it any other way, and too time-challenged to maintain the site even if I tried.
still, it's always great to hear everyone's ideas. anymore opinions??? opinions from those not so web-challenged??? Dan Antonelli--are you listening??? Russ??? hahaha!!!
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Michael, I need to give you another call and get fired up about doing fonts again. I'd like to get at least one on the market so I can cross it off the bucket list. Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Larry, I'm stunned... I've followed your posts and the glass projects you have put on Mike Jackson's forum, and just recently bought United Cigar from LHF - the capitals are some of the best decorative caps I've ever seen. While I obviously can't know all that went on between you and Chuck, I've been hearing these strange stories of erratic behavior, and it makes me shake my head...
I've never met Chuck, but I know and am friends with a number of the designers who sell on his site. I strongly support seeing them being compensated for their efforts, and I'm a total hawk on intellectual property rights - and I know first hand how an awful lot of sign makers and other so-called "professionals", for all the high rhetoric and complaining about design theft, will help themselves to whatever they can get away with. In that light, I have some sense of the source of Chuck's vehemence about piracy, though I do wonder if his efforts have any real effect, or just alienate his customers.
Reading the comments on the Techdirt site were very enlightening and in some cases, disturbing. My fondest wish is that you find an outlet for your work that allows you to put it out there, and still get some compensation for the effort you've pu into it.
Posted by Larry White (Member # 3999) on :
I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments. This whole turn of events seems pretty rediculous to me, and very unprofessional on LHF. It's definately not how I run my business.
Funny, I had received a memo from LHF about a month ago, stating how LHF was going to be exercising various avenues to increase sales for their contributing artists.
One of my life credos is, "Do what you say you're going to do." Obviously, Chuck hasn't heard this one, and has proven he'll say one thing and do another. I don't think this turn of events is going to help his sales.
I think his 20 years of uninterupted computing, has sucked all his human relationship skills....if he had any to begin with.
-Larry
[ December 21, 2009, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Larry White ]
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Bortz,
I have solved the piracy issue by just giving away "limited" versions of just about all my fonts, i.e., keyboard accessible characters only--nothing in the extended range. Another strategy is to give away one "unlimited" font from a font pak or family. This places my work in the public's hands for them to use and review, and if they are sincerely interested in making a purchase, they will eventually buy something. Call me crazy, but it eventually translates into sales.
Besides: Piracy is the sincerest form of flattery.
Russ, I don't know what you're waiting on. Let's get 'em ALL on the market!!!
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I had been talking to Chuck about putting one of my fonts on the LHF site. He was hard to reach in the first place, but we got the conversation started.
I was doing the editing with my own software - which was the same as his - and I would ask him questions as I progressed. There are so many things to consider, and I was trying to do everything right.
There wasn't a lot of work on his part, but apparently he got tired of helping me. One day I got an email from him, which stated that he had decided to stop taking outside submissions. He had deleted all of my files from his computer.
Without any explanation of what I had done to offend him, he cut off the conversation. I was very disappointed because I felt we were really close to the finish.
So, it is no surprise to me that he isn't a great communicator. If something bothers him, he won't give any reasons. He just slams the door.
Edited to say: I have probably put myself on some sort of black list for having said this. LOL
[ December 21, 2009, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Russ McMullin ]
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
You have singlehandly cut off the entire state of Utah from buying fonts from LHF.
Congratulations, Russ.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Larry - didn't you have a contract with Letterhead Fonts? Seems crazy to me that he could just 'cut you off' when you had developed a font to sell and established on his site.
That seems like very eccentric, odd behavior to me.
Yeah, I would agree that disgruntled font designers might want to investigate alternative sites for selling their product... maybe DNA fonts, or Sudtipos in addition to the other suggested sites?
I haven't seen anything interesting (to me) on DNA's site in quite a while... maybe give them a shout...they could use some professional grade new stuff.
[ December 21, 2009, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Yeah, I should apologize to the residents of Utah for having put us on the "no sale" list with the likes of Sweden and Atmore, Alabama.
When a self-righteous crusade alienates those who would be friends, the long-term effects can't be good.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: self-righteous crusade alienates those who would be friends, the long-term effects can't be good.
Motivated by what?
Is he suffering from something that is altering his perceptions?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond: Motivated by what?
Is he suffering from something that is altering his perceptions?
One does have to wonder. Based on what I've read here and elsewhere and my own personal experiences with someone else who exhibited similar behavior, I wouldn't be surprised if a bi-polar disorder was involved. Please understand that I'm not trying to be a "Dr. Phil". I just know that from personal experiences that sometime there is no motivation.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I'm no psychologist but, I have lived awhile. Sometimes people go through serious personal, family problems or tragedies in their life, and this can cause all kinds of mood swings. Maybe he is having a tough time right now.
I bought some LHF's a few months ago and was quite happy with the service.
Posted by Tony Segale (Member # 1380) on :
Sounds like robbery.
Man's word is a valuable thing. Don't wanna lose it over lack of contact or communication.
I always thought the truth was easier, tell a man how you feel.
Times change. Less social contact among men. 'Course, can't put much stock in a man who spends most of his time talkin' thru a keyboard. Talkin thru a gawddam keyboard.
More and more everyday, we need to see the paper... sign, sealed, signatures, everything, make sure it's all in order.
Most of the time, place ain't worth doin business with anyway. Heck of a way to run a business, really enhance your opportunities for success, truth be told.
Its a new kind of time we're in, but, the old rules still apply. You treat people the way you want to be treated.
So, when your business is startin to slide, people no longer dealin with you, best take stock in yourself.
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
Glad I didn't get mixed up with Letterhead Fonts.
I, for one, am more than satisfied with The Fontry's helpfulness. I only have one font under my belt so far (Atkinson's Eccentric French!) so my experience (not to mention sales!) with The Fontry is limited. That said, I'm immensely proud of the result so far and hope someday to make the font into a whole family: condensed, italic, and yes, even text. Mike was most helpful; he definately helped me learn a bit about font making.
[ December 21, 2009, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Frank Smith ]
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
It took me only one google search and 30 seconds to find this in reference to Letterhead fonts:
QUOTE>>> An interesting reaction to piracy by a font foundry: make the customer suffer
My biggest crime is not releasing enough new stuff for the sign guys ... I hope I don't have any critiques like this floating around the net!!!
I'm not going to provide the link ... that would be salt for the wound.
Posted by Brent Logan (Member # 6587) on :
The fact that they put the customer in a state of paranoia is suffering I guess. If the font designs weren't so darn good it wouldn't be worth the hassle. I wonder how the heck he thinks designers in big ad agencies and the big sign companies won't put the fonts on corporate file servers just because they say not to? When the artwork goes into different departments for production the fonts are usually required and need to be on a server. That's how it is in the real world. Converting to outlines or curves isn't practical in many situations. It might work for the small shops but not for the big ones.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Brent,
My partner, James Stirling, recently had one of his fonts downloaded off of Myfonts with a 300-!!! user license-!!!
for some people, I guess, that would be a problem.
Posted by Brent Logan (Member # 6587) on :
Mike,
Wow! Do you know what the price was for the 300 user license?
That might be an option for Letterheadfonts when they're selling to publishers and agencies... although I'm lucky to get them to pay the regular price where I work.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
But is it the foundry's reaction to piracy that is causing the customer to suffer or is it the really the fault of the piracy?
Here's what I mean.....I own several software programs that require a working dongle - Omega, SignLab and Wasatch Softrip. Why do the companies require the dongle? Piracy. And if the dongle goes bad, how much suffering is going to result? If the company has great support, the suffering will hopefully be minimal. Of course, having great support often requires a lot of effort and planning which doesn't come with out its own set of expenses.
I own Estimate and FastFilms which do not require a dongle. But, I do have to get a new "key" from them if I decide to move the to a new computer. Support is often "9 to 5, Monday - Friday". What happens if the software company goes under?
I can't and won't fault any company from taking measures to protect themselves. The problem is when the software company isn't responsive to the needs of its clientele as expected.
Unfortunately, we all have to experience a little suffering thanks to piracy. One can only hope that the software companies can find ways to minimize it as much as possible and not exacerbate things. Keeping a cool head and not be vengeful is a first step. To do otherwise will only backfire.
Posted by Bob Ficucell (Member # 1460) on :
I can't help feeling airing your grievance with Chuck at LHF in an open forum like this is inappropriate and childish!
Posted by Larry White (Member # 3999) on :
I can understand your point of view Bob, and anyone that knows me would probably say that it's a bit out of character for me. But, when he concluded his rant with the "pot smoking" comment, it got my dander up.
Seems there are a few people interested in this topic.
I'll go away soon enough.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
What kills more brain cells, marijuana or alcohol?
Marijuana acts as a similar neurotransmitter in the brain called anandamide, which is an endogenous cannabinoid. Anandamide receptors have been shown to be involved in the management of short term memory. Studies are under way to explore what role anandamide plays in human behavior, such as eating and sleep patterns, and the part it plays in pain relief. Alcohol is a GABA inhibiting drug along with partial NMDA antagonist properties and many more. The NMDA antagonist properties can be damaging to the brain and the chemicals that are oxidized afterwards(acetyldehyde) is toxic to the body which causes hangovers along with dehydration taking part in it. Marijuana is also known to grow new braincells in the hippocampus region.
Alcohol may be much more damaging to the brain, while cannabis has the exact opposite effect.
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
But can you make fonts?
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
brent,
The price break is so pro-rated it's ridiculous. Still, it probably comes to around $270, but I didn't ask.
Posted by Tony Segale (Member # 1380) on :
Inappropriate and childish? Is warning the rest of us inappropriate and childish. I don't think so.
Fella comes into my shop, agrees to terms and times with me, drops down a small deposit. Starts calling me everyday to see if his design is ready. Combination of bad weather and his persistence gets me to stay inside and wrap up his files quicker than spoken. After leaving messages about the work being completed, he replies with email I took too much time, same day his deposit check bounces 'insufficient funds'.
Maybe I should keep my mouth shut to avoid being inappropriate or childish. But, I foolishly did not. Instead, sent him a letter regarding services agreed, money owing, legal actions next step. Seems I got his dander up and he's willing to come pay before my deadline.
If and when he does, I will proudly act inappropraite and childish by first refusing any future work from him or any other client who fraudulently gives me a bad check, and second posting that check on my studio wall for future clients viewing pleasure.
Because, I like being inappropriate and chidlish, not an honest and ethical businessman.
Posted by Dana Blair (Member # 951) on :
Here we go again. Hijacking a thread for a personal agenda. That topic needs to be put into the politics and religion category on here.
Posted by Robare M. Novou (Member # 3711) on :
At first, I also thought that it was wrong for Larry to post his frustration with Chuck and LHF. I thought it was a personal matter that should have stayed in house.
But on the other hand, thanks to Larry and other Letterville Residents who have posted their dealings with LHF, I have become better informed of Chuck and his ways of dealing with Font Contributors and Customers alike.
As a possible future font contributor to LHF, I know have a keener insight of the business practices at LHF. And isn't that what these forums are for? Being made more aware and informed, instead of being lost and guessing.
I know about Larry, I know about Chuck. I've had dealings with Larry, but never with Chuck, aside from one email.
I've read all the posts on this forum and other forums. Some good, some not so good about Chuck and LHF.
Me personally, I love LHF! But if I every have to have business dealings with Chuck and LHF, I will be that much better in those dealings, thanks to all those who have posted their experiences on this subject.
Has Chuck every posted on this or any other site? Has he posted any response to the issues raised? If so, please direct me to those comments. To be fair, I need to read and understand Chucks view also.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I can't help but feel that telling someone in an open forum that what they posted was inappropriate and childish is very inappropriate and childish.... oh.... wait.......
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
that's one of the strange things, he does read these posts, don't think for a second that he doesn't, yet still chooses to not explain his version of the stories or clear things up. Some of the regulars here contribute to his font offerings (Arthur, Dan, Duncan). I'd be curious if they are getting too much success to complain or just nervous that this guy will drop them if they speak up.
Seems like this site would be a great alternate way to sell their fonts. How many people refuse to buy your fonts just because of this guys ego??
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
steve needs to add a "rant and vent" forum to this site-!!!
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
Ive been buying fonts from Chuck for several years now, and never had any kind of problem. I do know that he hates piracy, as do I being a clipart designer, and works hard to make his fonts hard to steal. Its a never ending battle with all the deadbeats on the internet and people making copies and giving them away or selling them for profit. I havent talked to Chuck in quite awhile, but just recently ordered a package of fonts from them. The designers that do work for him, including Larry, are top notch and put out some of the best stuff there is. Im really sorry to see this happen, and Id also hate to see this turn into a burning at the stake for LHF. I can safely say that LHF fonts have helped my business greatly, along with Sign DNA and The Fontrys. Im sorry to hear this happened Larry, but also question if this was the place to air it out. Just my opinion though, and I hope things get worked out for you.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Yes to John and all those who feel that Letterville isn't the place to air this out. Letterville is a place to post jokes, health issues, birthdays and promote one's meets, workshops, anniversary's but heavens no, not for business practices whether good or bad. Airing problems here isn't good behavior after all why would someone bring this up in their own hometown to persons like us who run a trouble free life and business.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
How many type styles does one need? Really?
Jack
Posted by Larry White (Member # 3999) on :
"Airing problems here isn't good behavior"...maybe, maybe not.
Funny, didn't see that complaint in Henry Barker's (40+ replies)Topic: "Not really in the Letterhead Spirit"
But one good thing about the Bullboard, is ya can.
I was encouraged to participate at LHF, and now I'm deleted. Not much different than doing a job, and not getting paid for it. I feel like I've been robbed.
I like all the fonts I've purchased there, and some of the contributing artists are my friends. I hope they still are. Well, I'm done now. If anyone wants to discuss this topic with me further, we can do it in private.
I like the enthusiasm over here, and I think I'll check in more often...WITH the Letterhead spirit of course!
If you ever have a glass etching question, or gilding question, feel free to drop me a line.
Thanks for the replies!
Over and out.....Aho!
[ December 22, 2009, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Larry White ]
Posted by Brent Logan (Member # 6587) on :
Jack, You know like I know that a good sign artist can get by with just a few and can draw anything he wants if the need arises. Fonts and clipart are just time savers for a lot of us. I want to mention that I love the letterhead fonts and I appreciate all of Chuck's hard work. The gallery on the site is a great source of inspiration as well. One thing...I wish Chuck could invent some code to embed in those fonts to keep them from being used improperly by bad designers. If the design stinks.. Poof! The fonts disappear.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Since my name was brought up I will comment... Please no one take it personally.
I like to judge folks on how they treat me personally. I know Chuck has a vendetta against piracy and reacts very strongly when he runs up against it. Although I may not always agree with his tactics I do support his cause.
From my personal experience Chuck and LHF have treated me more than fair and always paid promptly when they sell my fonts. I wish I could say the same for everyone I deal with.
Any time I hear of a grievance or argument I like to hear both sides before I make a comment. Even then I've learned that my comments or judgements often aren't very welcome and often not appreciated by either side.
In any case what we may read or hear - especially in the heat of a disagreement isn't how it is ultimately settled. I know it's true in my own personal life. We all have bad days from time to time and when I'm in the thick of a (perceived) crisis I often may not react to something or someone as I should. Sadly, those closest to me often take the brunt of my anger - even if I'm not even a little bit mad at them. They just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when I (wrongly) feel the need to vent. Thankfully those who are closest to me don't judge me by these unfortunate (and stupid - on my part) occurrences. I've had to apologize more in my life than most folks for more things than I'd ever like to admit - especially in public.
So often when someone posts about a wrong on a public forum lots of folks like to jump in and make judgement and comment without knowing all the facts.
On more than one occasion I have been 'fired' by a client and I've 'fired' a few clients myself over the years. While we may not see eye to eye and may even have not nice things to say about each other (at least until we cool down) the truth is neither (or both) of us are necessarily a bad people. To figure out who's the bad guy or who is at fault you would have to do a bunch of digging. The truth is we may not be suited to doing business with each other or we may simply have a personality conflict. It may not be a smart business move - but we are all human.
While Larry could well be right in this case, public flogging of Chuck on his part and a then whole bunch of other folks jumping on the bandwagon, digging up old grievances and stories to 'prove' their 'point' doesn't serve any good purpose in my view. Arguments which take place in the media often are not done with the intent of making things better.
If you like the fonts that LHF delivers please continue to support Chuck and the artists (myself included) that contribute to that site. If not - don't support them. I hope things change for the better in the future.
Merry Christmas all and Happy New Year too from Yarrow...
-grampa dan
Posted by Noel B. Weber (Member # 6855) on :
Your a wise man Grampa, and it doesn't just come with age. Our Art is gift to us all and I am grateful anyway I can express it. Season greetings to all you wonderful Canadians. You are the crown of our country. Noel and not first or the last.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Grandpa Dan gets angry?
I can't help but wonder how each of us would hold up to the kind of scrutiny Chuck has been subjected to on this and similar threads - deserved or not. Heaven knows I've got my own foibles.
Its almost 5am. Time to go to work and pay some of Santa's bills.
******
Oh, I almost forgot to include an answer to Jack's question.
42,547
[ December 22, 2009, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Here it is 4AM, just got up to prepare myself for a new day. Last night I called Jack and discussed this post which he was unaware of and to urge him to post a reply. Jack is one of my hero's when it comes to someone I look up to. I have a lot of hero's and within each one is knowledge to supply me with a reason to stick around. I always thought that 25 to 30 Fonts were a maximum for any one's business and Jack honored me with the same feeling plus an explanation of why. I very rarely watch the news these days because of the fact I find that it is made up of commentators and their interpretation of the news is just for their own show. On the other hand game shows ask questions of general knowledge which tickles my grey matter so to speak and fills me with correct answers so that down the road in case someone asks a question I nay be able to join the conversation. I know that this post isn't something that I might find helpful because of my retirement but I do know that there are persons who no matter what the topic will become so distant from the original topic that in the end will wind up bringing a smile to my face Now don't get me wrong as I respect another persons belief as long as they keep it on the subject at hand and hopefully never have the same problem Larry White has had in which case they may change their reply to fit their mood which can show not so much as flexibility but their belief that their problem is entirely different, in which case it isn't. I believe that this forum is the place to express grievances as well as how-to's, birthdays, workshops and an assortment of other stuff related to your businesses. This way this forum works to its fullest on its professional ability to help each other from falling or failing and therefore is compliant with the rules of our quest, which is to run a trouble free operation. There are many instances in all businesses which relate to what we are all about and although some do not always see it our way, it does not mean any one of us is wrong.
That's all I have to say
Posted by Tony Segale (Member # 1380) on :
All this discussion got me to thinkin of one of my favorite movies, "Open Range"...
"We got no quarrel with none of you folks. Boss of that website bushwhacked my friend and shot deragatory comments at him. Shotdown the letterhead spirit, too. And clubbed it so hard... It might not live. Tried to take his dignity. Not postin in here would mean we ain't gonna do nothing about it. You don't like free thinkers in this town. We don't much like being here. But a man's got a right to protect his property and his life. And we ain't letting no crazed owner or his words take either. We got no intention of harming bystanders."
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I personally don't like posts like this. It has nothing to do with Letterheads, or the reason this Forum exists. Chuck may not be my biggest fan, but I don't like to see Letterville used in this manner. None of us are perfect. Letterville was never intended to be a "whipping post." Please keep that in mind when making future posts.
There are different sides involved here. We have the owner of a business with a terriffic product for sale. Then there are the talanted artists that design and sell their fonts. I'm real proud that all of them consider themselves Letterheads. The very mention of that name suggests quality and something a step above average. I hope all involved can work out their differences, so that all the rest of us can purchase the product for years to come.
This next part isn't as easy to write about. It's a topic that we have struggled with for years. Nobody wants to hear about it, and yes, it is embaressing. It's time for The Money Talk. There is a connection between this Topic and what we are about to discuss.
We like to call Letterville "The Letterhead Meet That Never Stops." For over 15 years, it has been here 24/7/365. There are no business hours. We are always available to answer questions, promote meets, and do our little part to make sure this wonderful thing called Letterheads is available for future Letterheads. It's been a real honor. Over the years, we have been able to document 170 something live meets around World, gather up some great Step By Steps, and do whatever we can to try and simulate a live Letterhead Meet.
Along the way, with all your help, we came up with a live Chat and even the famous HeadCam. Long before YouTube and all the fancy chat tools available today, there was live video from Letterhead and PinHead Meets Around The World. In the process, we grew from 22 sign shops to over 10,000 shops. All on a website built with HTML For Dummies and a dream! People come and go, but I still believe this Forum continues to be the most popular of it's kind. Letterville has been our fulltime income for over 12 years. Thanks to Residents and Merchants, we were able to raise our Family after I became disabled.
It's not easy. Our main income used to be Merchants. With the traffic Letterville gets each day, there is no more economical way to reach so many. Many of us are the people that still use paint and brushes, yet Letterville today has no paint or brush manufacturer. It's amusing since vinyl and transfer tape companys have the impression we are all old paint dinasaurs that don't use their products. Go figure. To be honest, we are also to blame for much of this. Our marketing skills suck.
Since Day One, we have had a big problem with people and companies, who profit off their products, use this Forum to post links and use the popularity of this website to do some free advertising. Some claim it is just information and they have the right to post in public forums, some claim they want to test the waters before risking a whooping 500 bucks a year in advertising. I truly believe there are others that are just "helping out a friend." Some will call them savvy Marketers. I call them Freeloaders.
We all understand the frustration at seeing our designs, fonts or hard work stolen by others. Everytime it happens, the creator is denied income that is badly needed to survive and grow their business. When this free enterprise thing is working well, we make a bit of money by helping others make money. Too often, we see everyone else making a buck but Letterville. It can become downright annoying when times are really tough.
When I see a post like this, I see a company that has publically stated they have no respect for this website, getting more free publicity. It may not be positive, but we all know there is no such thing as bad publicity. It's frustrating we have failed so miserably to put Letterheads and those that market to us together. Everytime I see a link to a non Merchant, I can just see those who have supported this website so many years toss up their hands.
Just another way of looking at things. Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Makes sense to me, Steve. I apologize for my contributions to the thread (but not for my opinions of LHF.)
quote:Originally posted by Steve Shortreed: Everytime I see a link to a non Merchant, I can just see those who have supported this website so many years toss up their hands.
I've thought the same thing. Especially when someone suggests the Merchant right off, and then 5 more people say but... but.... THIS other random internet place is cheaper.
[ December 22, 2009, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by stein Saether (Member # 430) on :
whatever
One buy a product under the terms of not making it usable to others
everyone is free to not buy under those terms or ---
Posted by stein Saether (Member # 430) on :
and jack, im happy with times and futura
Posted by Gregg Parkes (Member # 7710) on :
So wonderfully worded Steve.
There are many that vent their frustrations here. I try not to get involved with something that has nothing to do with me. I make my own choices and decisions and live by those - be they right or wrong. Sometimes I am ill informed and thus made a poor judgement.
I think that Letterville and it's members is more like a "distant family". Yes !!! the primary subject is Signs. But at some point in time, the personality of the authors starts to shine through and we become "friends" rather than just authors. I think herein MAY lie the problem. People can ( and probably do) take liberty by venting their frustrations / anger / disappointment to their "friends", forgetting that there are others on the sidelines. Possibly not a good impression to someone that has just picked up their first "Signcraft" magazine, seen the Letterville ad and taken the time to www. it.
One thing that that I can make judgement on is this (now remember... this is MY opinion) ...
A parent stands on the side, listening to their two children argue over whatever. The discussion goes back and forward and the parent is forced to stand on the sidelines, saying nothing, not supporting one nor the other - that could be seen as favortism.
There does however come a point in time when the parent - for the sake of civilty - needs to call a "halt" and send them on their separate ways - determining that the argument is going nowhere and nothing good is really going to become of it.
As a parent - sometimes decisions need to be made - sometimes contrary and unpopular to those involved.
Parents are just bloodline Moderators.
Likewise, as a Moderator, decisions need to be made - sometimes contrary and unpopular to those involved.
No offence intended, but I would be more than comfortable for posts (certainly not this post specifically) to be removed that as the Host to a worldwide community, did not reflect the intention and spirit of the site.
Think not only of those who post here... but also those who don't.
Cheers - Gregg
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
geez, I too would like to live in a world where problems are erased before they happen but unfortunately that isn't possible in the real world. It seems that some want only to hear of good experiences and never be warned of bad experiences, wow!! I guess in todays world all of which happens to some which are not politically correct to others and therefore should be erased, deleted, removed. Is this why signmakers need a spell check on their computer. I found this post wasn't about arguing or scrutiny but rather a bad experience from an artist in our community and if good experiences go without as many reply's does this make those who typed the post feel any better. One who shows concern whether in agreement or disagreement is complementary without directional violence attached to their reply. To put this in simple terms, getting with the program has more then one answer as we are all here to learn from another persons experience, are we not?
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
I hesitated to even post when this thread started, as it might look like I had some axe to grind against my perceived competition.
Heck, I don't even know Chuck. Never bought a Letterhead font. I know some who have, and they were happy about it. I know some who have, and they weren't happy about it. Never discussed it with them either way except on technical or artistic grounds, to gauge my own work against their expectations and opinions.
I don't like the idea of piracy, but I also never give it much thought. I give away so many freebies, it doesn't matter. The freebies promote me, and probably too does the piracy.
My only reason for posting was to offer some encouragement to anyone who wants to sell their own fonts. A few have asked me to sell them on their behalf, but my position on that is simple.
I don't want to make money off your hard work. Their are already people out their who will gladly do that for you!!! Only they will actually do a very good job for you while they're at it. Much better than I can ever do.
And yes, I'm well aware that everything posted here will be read by people whose names we will probably never know and whose faces we will probably never see.
In other words ... if you say something about someone, it will get back to them.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
To quote MGA, it will get back to them...
And sometimes, maybe it should. There are people who become so wrapped up in their own perception of reality that they don't know the overall effects of their decisions. And since this individual does not care to tell HIS side, the perception becomes one-sided, at best.
As for whether this topic is appropriate, I think Joey said it best, in his own unique way.
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In that light, I have some sense of the source of Chuck's vehemence about piracy, though I do wonder if his efforts have any real effect, or just alienate his customers. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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