I've been a member here since 1999. Been coming here on and off since then, and pretty much daily for the last 2 years.
It seems like all the forum is any more is arguments over Mac vs. PC and YouTube links that have no relation to sign making. I'm all for the occasional joke or off topic comment to break things up now and then, but...
How many of you have posted anything in the Portfolio in the last year?
How many of us have posted a helpful tip or article in the last year?
I just wonder what has happened to the Letterhead spirit? I have emailed quite a few here and just tried to break the ice, say hello and talk shop and haven't got one single response from any of them. Maybe some of the emails are old and outdated, I don't know. John Arnott of SignGraphics emailed me one day and we have shared a variety of things over the last few months, but that's it.
There are some of us that are breaking our butts to improve our hand painted skills every day and keep this stuff alive and the whole Letterhead concept seems to have gotten lost for the next generation of sign makers wanting to learn. How do we learn if nobody wants to talk anymore?
I love Letterville. I have learned a ton here. I just wonder if it keeps going the way its going what its going to be a year from now? With the economy in the crapper, shouldn't the forum be full of the cool projects we are all doing in our down time?
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
I find it hard to participate when not much is going on in my life that is work related.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...Sean, If you have any questions about "improving your hand painted skills", just ask. I'd LOVE to help you! ...Keep in mind that Letterville is NOT The Letterheads, it is a WEB FORUM where (typically) ANYTHING GOES. The 'Letterheads' are people who actually go to Letterhead meets. Have you ever been to one?
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
John Arnott of SignGraphics emailed me one day and we have shared a variety of things over the last few months, but that's it.
Umm, oh really? So you're looking for a long time email commitment Sean
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Sean - I think people naturally get testy when they are dealing with frustrations such as this economy has spawned.
I was on a competing site the other day, and this poor newbie posted a logo and simply asked for advice on how to improve it. He was immediately pounced on and trashed by several people for no good reason.
Then, he made an offhand comment in a subsequent reply about wanting his logo to possibly reflect his Christian lifestyle. Ho-Boy... the Christian bashers beat him about the head and shoulders for that!
He was nailed at length by a handful of people for daring to post a logo and ask for help and basically accused of all manner of egregious improprieties relating to 'how' he should have asked for a hand.
I read through all of the 4 pages of posts... and the good natured guy kept his cool throughout... I can't believe the ridicule he endured.
A few of the respondents of the thread, who I viewed as particularly and unecessarily cruel, I know to be struggling on account of the economy.
I almost chimed in to defend him, but figured I'd be pummeled as well - and I've been in too many of those bash-fests as is..so I just stayed away.
But, my point being, I think people sometimes take their frustrations out on people they cannot see as a way to unload the stress, frustration, and sense of futility they are feeling - and the hostility pours out.
No one is perfect, me included...
I have been checking into the portfolio section often too and have thought the same: I really miss seeing everyone's eye candy. The people that are busier need to post more of their stuff to inspire those that aren't.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Todd,
Sometimes when I see someone I feel is unfairly pummeled, rather than join a fray with people's emotions all riled up, I'll email the person privately. I like to let him know not everyone feels that way and also compliment him for his good attitude in the face of adversity.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I have posted in the portfolio section a few times this year but I too have noticed a lack of participation in that section. Although, a few are posting their projects in this section instead.
I'll try to help though. I'm documenting a sign project right now that I will post a "how to" when it is completed. I just have to try to remember to take the pictures along the way.
I agree with some of the other comments about the economy slowing things down. I'm sure for many it is hard to get excited about your craft when there is little work.
and yes, the negativity produced by those stupid PC vs. Mac threads don't help either.
As far as the e mails not being returned, I'm positive that many of them are not up to date. I'm a good one for just picking up the phone and calling a Letterhead, but I find many of the phone numbers in the member database are wrong so I'm sure it's the same for the e mail addy's.
Posted by Gregg Parkes (Member # 7710) on :
I hear ya Sean, and to some degree I agree with you.
Many have a lot to share, and are certainly more than willing. The question just has to be raised. Letterville is dominated by US participants. The US is huge (but then so is OZ) and varying in suppliers, stock available, climatic conditions, and the style in which signs are accepted within the local environ. So a question raised may result in many responses but only a handful pertinant to the specific area.
Also, have you considered that many have actually improved to a certain level and are continuing on their journey but the improvement level has slowed? When no new members "enroll", then it stands to reason that fewer questions are going to be raised due to the knowledge level being raised along the passage of time.
In terms of the portfolio pages, I feel it is a double edged sword. Yes...we could all make cool projects BUT cool projects do cost time and money. I don't feel that the time is any great issue - considering the economy being what it is at the moment. However using "old stock" simply to post on the portfolio page or add (note add, not begin a sample portfolio) to a showroom wall, can cost markedly. Consider this: using that quarter sheet of HDU requires buying a full sheet. Using up the last of resin requires buying a full pack. And I could go on, but I am sure you get my drift. Using these materials could force your bid / quote price upwards, resulting in losing out. Everybody knows that good profits come from utilising stock that is totally on hand. Good profits can make a HUGE difference (mentally) to those that are doing it tough financially. And past posts show that there are many many out there. I for one am doing it tough (still) and Christmas shutdown period will no doubt have those terrible credit cards seeing the light of day.
Bottom line in my opinion is that human nature WANTS to share joy and success. Some are more positive than others... that is admirable in those that posess that trait. But for those that have no joy or success to share... well the result is a quiet board - they have no willingness to expand on their personal position. You have to remember that not all participants on this board are financially in the same position, nor are they of the same experience or same age.
I congratulate Dan and others for being positive. In all your words Sean there is only 9 words that are positive "I love Letterville. I have learned a ton here.". The rest are negative and, considered, you seem to be only adding to the same argument you are trying to mount.
I am not attacking you personally, rather your words of what may very well be an attempt to bring some positiveness to the board. I hope so.
There are many that have much to bring to Letterville. They have in the past and I am certain they will in the future. If new memberships are down - I encourage all to visit the opposition, say hello, find out how they are doing, and enlighten them on the technical, artistic, marketing, IT, insurance, product, substrate, and installation knowledge bank that is available on Letterville. But remember - not all "LOVE" signs to the same level... to many it is just a source of income.
Everyone has their own way of doing things, and dealing with things such as no work, no money, no hope. It is as varied as the type and style of work that they undertake.
Not a rant, not a dig...merely just my 2 cents and the acceptance that I have that it is human nature to deal with things in our own different manner.
Cheers
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
if you got NO PORTFOLIO QUALITY WORK going out the door.........CANT POST the everyday run of the mill crap.............
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
The economy has affected us all to some degree or other. My style is to maintain a positive attitude and keep forging ahead. It works for me. I have total confidence things will begin to improve soon.
But when things are slow all the positive attitude in the world sometimes doesn't help very much in actually bringing dollars in the door in the short term. While I absolutely need a positive attitude to do my design and in my daily life, ultimately its still up to the customer to like what we've presented and go ahead with the job.
I've kept busy this past year with plenty of designs for some pretty cool projects. When things are slow I tend to be more thorough in making sure everything is covered. My bids have been as tight as I dared while keeping an eye on ever increasing costs.
My biggest frustration this past year plus is that people are taking so much longer to make up their minds... second guessing every decision and often seeking second and even third opinions making design by committee a much more common fact of life. Work is just thin enough I tend to put up with it much longer than I should at times.
We've also had number of large and wonderful projects make it all the way through the (paid) design phase only to suddenly stop because their promised financing simply was no longer there. It absolutely baffles me how things could go so far before they fall totally apart.
For now we're on a roller coaster of projects promised but not yet proceeding. As news and signs of the economy slowly improves hopefully things will get rolling again.
-dan
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I think we're all just getting a little old. As for the videos, I just put out this one today 96th Street Auto sales Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
I guess I just never got the hang of posting any of my pics..but am always interested in the new technologies.
Thanks to all that have given what they have. I enjoy seeing opinions and viewpoints from many sides. The best information comes in many forms and from sometimes a heated moment or a mistake as necessity is the mother of invention, you know.
I think there is a lot of spirit here, and I'm fading in and out of the board as lie gets busier and takes many twists. Still, after 8 years or so, I'm still checking in and out. There will be a season for everyone to show their talents and treasures, of course.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
You know Alicia I have the same problem in the mornings, getting my hair just right... I go through a ton of spray... what's a guy to do! Love the Sign, and yes Digital will last about 5 years with lamination... but one shot don't last as long as it once did also... but Love the Cuban Music.
Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
Alicia, your a hoot. A day in the life of Alicia Jennings. You can use a rattle can of clear coat next time you run out of hairspray...hehehe.
Sean, I was one of those people getting bashed for my work, but if you stick it out long enough you'll find that there are people that do want to HELP and that even in the useless bashings there is a nugget of knowledge hiding.It's nice to have people to talk to and ask questions but when it comes down to it the only way to get better is to PRACTICE!
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Alicia, That made my day! Nice sign, too! 'Sign business beeen berry goot to me 2'
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
hahaa.... Just loved Alicia's video!
Gotta love them cash jobs!
Holey moley girl, you go thru some hairspray don'cha?
Nice sign by the way!
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
You are one rockin' way cool lady, Alicia.
P
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Loved it, Alicia! Kelsey's right. You're a hoot!
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I'm glad you chimed in here Kelsey. You are a perfect example of someone who was tough enough to withstand some of the insensitive and rude comments and improve your work. Not everyone is as tough as you, though, and there are a few arrogant, insensitive remarks made here sometimes. While 95% of the folks and critiques here are fair and constructive, it's the one or two mean spirited ones that bite deep and are remembered.
Those people need to remember that everyone started at the bottom and worked their way up. You can critique someone without destroying their ego. A good rule of thumb is that if you don't like someone or have disdain for them, you should refrain from commenting, because your hostilities will come through.
If you want to see more posts on handlettering or striping, then those of you who do it are going to have to make those posts. The people who don't have or practice those skills can't really help. The reason there are a lot of router or computer related posts here are because there is a core group who is passionate about those subjects. I've see a lot of commments about the lack of the old subjects, instead of a post complaining about how things have changed, why not post some memories or how tos complete with pictures in an attempt to combat that loss? If you are the "Keepers of the Craft", do you have a responsibility to that?
Letterville has never claimed to be "The Letterheads", it has however been extremely instrumental in helping the "movement" (for lack of a better word) grow by creating a world wide networking and advertising and promoting Letterhead meets. The Shortreeds have always advocated and encouraged people to attend meets. As far as "anything goes", that's a call each and every poster makes. There are rules here, some just feel they are somehow entitled to ignore them. Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
How about some really old work along with some new, for comparisons and disscussion.
This is one I did about 20 years ago, all one shot.
My Old shop van when I had Vital Signs, again about 20 years ago... all paint...
A bike I did a couple of weeks ago
MDO Sign from 20 years ago as well..
Part of a CBC Set I did all digitally printed..part of a much bigger set.
Apartial wrap we just did for a local camera store.
All sorts of work from one old time sign painter who now uses modern technology...for most of my work... we do tons of decals and labels, banners, you name it... we keep busy.. very busy.
[ December 02, 2009, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
Thanks Kelly, that means a lot.
I usually took the really nasty comments and turn it into motivation to get better. I have also found that some people are threatened by new talent and tend to "hold back" their knowledge of a specific craft.
No matter how good you are there is always someone better! Some people forget this and think they know everything. I am still learning and as far as I'm concerned will ALWAYS be learning.
The hardest part for me was there isn't really anyone physically close to me to ask questions or learn from. I had to take the comments from here and decide what's relevant. Someone telling me my pin-up girl looked like a man was not constructive at all, but I took their evil intent and realistically looked at it. Maybe I can make her curves smoother and not so blocky... soften the jaw-line etc. What I'm trying to say is even though they were just being mean there was some truth to their comment.
Going to meets helped A LOT in the beginning too.
I'm no letterman but if you have any pinstriping or airbrushing questions I'd be happy to give you any tips or tricks I know.
How about from this...
To this...
[ December 02, 2009, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Kelsey Dum ]
Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
You Rock On, Kelsey!! meeting you in '06 at Dixie..and now... your determination has really paid off!!
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Sean,
Please feel free to e-mail me anytime . . . I prefer personal e-mails to FWDS anytime . . . I seldom get on-line - only a couple of times a month, but when I do, I make up for lost time . . . I can't currently post pics on the 'ville but hope to remedy that glitch eventually . . . I can e-mail you pics of my stuff tho', and hopefully recieve yours . . .
Letterville is still the 'bomb' - don't lose heart - we are still a band of brothers & sisters of the brush . . . Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Kelsey's coming on strong!
Like your wrap Neil... easy on the eyes. Nicely done.
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Your videos are great Alicia, keep 'em coming. Like BT, I met Kelsey in Dixie. Kelsey you impress the heck out of me. Keep it coming.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
"With the economy in the crapper, shouldn't the forum be full of the cool projects we are all doing in our down time?"
When your business is slow, doing those "cool projects" often becomes harder. Sure. We'd all like to take a few hours to whip off some of the high end projects for fun and practice, but when it's getting progressively harder to put food on the table, it goes down your list of priorities pretty fast. Despite the love of what we do and how willing we may be to share that passion, this is still a business. We do this to earn a living.
I haven't posted anything on the portfolio pages in well over a year for the reason mentioned above. The nature of the work that has been coming in standard fare and certainly nothing new. While we may be struggling, so are our customers and they just aren't asking us to produce higher end work as much. As for those "cool projects", they get shelved when times are tough and the focus is on income. Personally, I would love to get a few of those projects done here, but keeping the lights on and trying to bring in new business is more my focus. Quite frankly, I can't afford to spend the time playing with panels right now. Things are already tight and I can't waste the materials.
I don't know that Letterville has changed as much as our circumstances have. A few years ago, things were hopping and the work was of a better quality. Now that business is slow and the higher skill level isn't being requested so much, that's being reflected here as well.
Rapid
[ December 03, 2009, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Ray, I agree with a lot of what you said . . .
Also, when business is slow, the area I become most creative in is generating work! During these lean times, I've been hittin' the pavement and making cold calls. After contacts are made, I gather info on the potential jobs. Then I come back to the office and put together proposals, which as we know is time consuming and not immediate income. This is cause to work harder and be even more creative with designs for jobs, since quotes also include artwork and layout presentation. Again, not immediate income and also the chance it will not produce any. However, once a few of these are submitted each week, one or two do eventually come thru and then it's off to work . . .
The point is, if I'm not busy workin' jobs, I'm not playin' around and waitin' for jobs to come thru - Instead, I'm just as busy hunting/quoting jobs.
Meanhwile, when will I get to persue my creative ideas . . .? I just thumb 'em out on paper and make notes and my sketch pads are full. One of these days, I will have a blast making all those things tangible . . . Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I'll comment about the part of this forum that has to do with critiques:
If you post a project here be prepared for any and all types of comments. Some may hurt. If you can't handle the hurt you will probably struggle in the sign related fields, because you will probably witness similar hurtful comments from the general public. It sucks (I know), but it is what it is.
If you want to make a comment about somebody's work, you don't need to tear them down with hurtful comments. That may be how you treat everyone in life, but it is counter-productive.
You usually will make enemies in life and on this forum by being hurtful with your comments. I can't imagine a person starts out attempting to make enemies, but if you are so inclined, don't be surprised if folks on this forum will gang up on you.
So you may want to try an approach that I learned in my years of coaching youth football. We used to have clinics on this in attempt to help coaches make playing sports a more positive experience for the kids:
It's called the "compliment sandwich". It is based on the fact that you try to find both the good and bad in any situation. The process allows an individual to recognize both a bad performance and a good performance. That way a person can become better by dropping the bad performance and carrying forward the good performance. It's also based on a premise that a person will not improve their performances when they are degraded constantly and relentlessly without any hope for improvement.
Sometimes you have to work extra hard to find some good, but it is almost always there. It works like this: You start out with a positive, point out the negative and then end in a positive -- in other words -- positive/negative/positive. Thus the name compliment sandwich. It works. Maybe give it a try, otherwise I'm going to have to come after you. I'll find out where you live. I'll come after you. And I'll bring you down.
I'm kidding of course. A little humor helps, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Bill that is really good advice, but I'm confused, I don't like giving compliments when they are not deserving or earned, but I like your spirit and approach to this. lol
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Bill, that is excellent advice. I know it works. I coach bowling at the high school level. I also coach my wife who usually has the top average in her leagues. When I was helping her one day she made the comment that she felt like she couldn't do anything right. I realized I was only pointing out the mistakes she was making. I made a lot more progress with her and with my kids when I started pointing out what they were doing right along with the mistakes. I like the idea of a sandwich though. Ending up on a positive should help even more.
Now I'm hungry.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I was at the coffee shop last week when a man brought his students in for beverages and lessons. It really was instructive into how one can teach while correcting and affirming at the same time.
He always mentioned a positive somewhere while showing mistakes.
Posted by Mark Baty (Member # 9776) on :
To Dan DESIGN BY COMMITTEE! "A Horse designed by committee-is a Camel".
Posted by Bec Bermudez (Member # 8219) on :
To the original poster...
I moderate a very popular horse forum, and participate in a couple of other ones. Every once in a while, your exact words (except insert horsey stuff rather than sign stuff) are posted by a frustrated forum member.
Sometimes it is the perception of the participant. Sometimes it actually is the atmosphere of the forum. Either way, things will always be morphing and keep rolling along. If you care about a forum, the best thing to do is lead by example.
Luv Bec
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
This forum still works for me! Posted by Rusty Bradley (Member # 6938) on :
Me too Janette...even though some of my questions have been pretty elementary...I've always gotten good and often detailed advice that was very helpful...as well as inspiration which seems to be getting a little harder for me to find these days.
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