I have a customer (well, they haven't ever become a customer) who I've been going in circles with for 6 weeks now. They wanted a quote on some window graphics that has evolved and changed into a half dozen things (literally, I have provided them with 6 different estimates for everything from window graphics to dimensional lettering to a hand painted hanging sign.)
This is a new real estate company here in San Francisco and dealing with them has been a nightmare with constant changes, showing samples, meeting with them in our shop etc. and I don't want to deal with them anymore, or do the job. They even asked that we produce part of their dimensional letters before signing off, even though I showed them an acrylic sample letter of the exact same material and size.
How have some of you stopped the process without being overly abrasive? I want to tell them they are nuts and to waste someone else's time, but I am thinking there is probably a more diplomatic way...
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
Charging a decent amount up front for your design time usually scares most tire kickers away.
Posted by Sean G. Starr (Member # 1549) on :
I held my ground on the design, and told them I would not provide a final design until I received a deposit. Still no deposit, and they have changed their mind over and over. They emailed me at 1am last night after telling me they were mailing a deposit check earlier in the day and said they wanted to look at some different ideas (they want from me) before they proceed.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
I doubt that there is a polite way to get rid of them.
Just tell them that thier constant changes and indecisons have you completely frustrated, now please find some other shop.
If that doesn't work, then be very blunt and thell them to f*** off and die!
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
they will play you til the end of ages.
They are using your for comparison prices to see if the other guy is ripping them off. You will never get a job from them.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Simply tell them that considering the amount of time already spent you will need a retainer before you can continue any further. Architects do it. Why can't you?
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
just call them and tell them, why waste your time looking for a diplomatic way to fire them?
they aren't acting very professional on their part!
every one of us gets this type of customer, some times we see it coming other times we are sucked into their vortex of hell and indecisions. I like to verbally warn other sign people that these people are on the prowl and they are nothing but timewasters
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
A few weeks ago I had a little old lady- really shouldn't call her that she probably isn't that old but she was the persnickety, fretty type. We were working on a sign for the Rotary Club her husband was involved with before he passed away. The entire job was a $350 sign. Vinyl on aluminum, shaped, simple stuff. Well I went and took pictures of the same thing for the background of the sign 5 times. And I'd send it to her. And she would say "well, that's just not quite right". And she was such a nice old lady I just couldn't. But I was getting close.
So one day I said to her "Reta, do you realize this phone call has surpassed my $20,000 mark?" To which she replied "WHAAAAA????????" To which I said, "Reta with this phone call I have spent more time on your $350 sign than I did designing a $20,000 job last year." "Oh, sorry, someone just pulled in the lane I'll call you back."
I called her back about an hour later and she apologized profusely. She felt so bad that she asked me if I needed more money, which I took, business is business. And that very minute we put the design to bed.
What I' trying to say is, sometimes, just sometimes, customers do not realize they are frustrating you. They just really aren't the brightest bulb in the pack. It's not that they are kicking tires they just approach everything they do that way. Annoying as H-E- double hockey sticks but that is just them. Walk away. Stick your fingers in your ears and loudly LALALALA and walk away. They may just come to you straight way and have your answer. Its worth a try, they can't frustrate you any more that way.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
That's the way it is sometimes, sometimes you just have to walk away, but try to get a deposit, Glen said it right..even if it's just a small deposit.
Just 2 weeks ago I had a "Customer" who came in the shop wanting me to design a new look for his new van, it was another tourism van, and he's been in my shop before. I could'nt believe he came back. as soon as I saw him my defences went into code red.
I spent days, designing basically the same thing for him about 5 years earlier, and he never did get the work done, and I tried getting paid for the design but never did..... well this time I could'nt get a word in, cause he was rambling on and on about how great business was and all of that until I stopped him and said before I could start I would need a deposit... well you should have seen the look on his face. He spitted and sputtered, and said he would get a hold of his "Girl" at the office. But he really wanted me to design something first, now we are not talking about just lettering here folks but full graphics... guess what happened? I never heard from him.... again... and I'm not suprised or offended.. actually I feel pretty good about it.
Sometimes all it takes is a small, like a hundred bux deposit to get the customer to commit.
[ September 26, 2009, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
Respect,on both sided, is the majic ingrediant. Being pleasant, kind and firm about your financial requirements will confirm who you are dealing with.
I'm glad Deri posted her experience. We all have a few "Reta" customers and she managed it correctly. Good for you Deri.
In my opinion, Sean hasn't figured out if he's a winner or looser client. And he may be creating, or building, a bad client relationship without knowing it.
Any way, I wish you success with your work.
Posted by Dan Beach (Member # 9850) on :
I don't see a problem with being direct with this guy and relating to his own business.
Since he is real estate that means he has had his fair share of non-committal people wanting to look at 1000 different houses b/c they don't know what they want. I'm sure that frustrates him to no end and it is the same thing he is doing to you.
Ask him if he gets a lot of those types and how frustrating they are and how they erode his profit margin, then say "Well, to be honest . . ."
Posted by Sean G. Starr (Member # 1549) on :
Thanks everybody, this is all great input.
Joe is correct on trying to determine if this guy was worth working with and I came to the conclusion he is not. There are other issues here, the biggest being that the customer seems to have a huge ego.
I appreciate Deri's viewpoint too, I had a customer a few months back that I had to do the same thing with and it actually cemented the relationship. They even called us just last week to do another small thing, so sometimes people just need a wake up call.
I also think Si and the others are correct, aint no way to inch around it, I just need to tell them straight up that I can't work with them.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I'd tell them, "Listen, I really don't think that I am the right person for this job. I must insist you shop elsewhere" And smile! If they ask why, ya tell them that they are taking too much time away from your other customers.
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Regardless of who is right or wrong or whatever on the issue, if you don't want to do this job, then don't do it. There usually is no kind way.
If you want the job, then just try to wall off the nonsense and get their money and just do what is in front of you. Do not invest too much of yourself emotionally in them. Just charge for all the hassle, do the work, move on. If they get flustered because you won't be drawn into their drama or indecisiveness or just their way of seeing the world, maybe they will leave you.
Posted by Kathy Weeks (Member # 10828) on :
Thanks for this story Sean! We've all been there, but it helps to go over the how's and why's, ever so often, to keep our sanity and help us keep focused on what we're trying to do. I like everyone's response! I'm also, working with a realty company, at this moment, on some vehicle graphics, and they too, are starting to do the "back and forth" dance on layouts, (realtor's are the worst, in my area). So, I'm going to turn on my stearn business tone, and let them know we are at the end of the line - buy it, or start over somewhere else. I've done this many times before, and I usually get the job, and return business, because they realize I'm not a push over, and I know my business. And I know my business, because of all the other sign painters/makers out there who've shared their war stories - Thanks gang! ~Kath
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I'll end the post by saying I like Alicia's reply to your situation.
I'll also say that doing signs and doing vehicles are totally different as we get the vehicle as a deposit and when its finished, no payment, no vehicle Posted by Bruce Brickman (Member # 8180) on :
Great topic. First off I have none of this mastered yet. My wife is a realtor and she is very direct, no nonsense, type A, and this kind of person, or other realtors like yours, drive her crazy too. My experience is doing both works best. Charging for design time and getting a deposit. I always put on the design that it cannot be reproduced without my consent which has scared some cheap people away. It is like screening our clients. That said, each case is different but these two things have saved my but so many times and like others have said it is the willingness to confront the fear of losing them. (Confidence & Professionalism) The amount of time and energy I spend in these types of situations could have been used to get another client that I want to work with and keep long term. Being honest and professional in drawing the line here will build a good client or they will leave and be one you would rather not have. We are creating our clientele in how you handle each client. Your work is great and should speak enough to win there confidence in you. By the way my wife (the realtor) has fired clients too.
Best to you. It is a grat opportunity to grow!
Posted by Brian O'Prey (Member # 4063) on :
I had a customer like this 2 years ago. I phoned the boss of the company and told him I had never before worked with such an unprofessional client. Then suggested he use another designer for the job. That was that. What happened next is only known within his company......and I was free to get on with my life, and better customers.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
After a three minute sketch and try at it, if they look interested then I explain my hourly design fee and get some up front $$$. After that money is gone, I don't want any more if I feel that I won't please them, but that can usually be determined by the response to the initial concept drawing and discussion. Some people like/need to do much processing. When they need to pay for it they usually learn to trust a professional quickly. Train them to trust you.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Just send them a bill for 'Services Rendered' Simpler is best.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: After a three minute sketch and try at it, if they look interested then I explain
This is the profile section of the 4 p's. pivot, profile, praise, prompt. You are showing them some ideas to get their profile. You are looking to fill some needs.
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
Lawyers got it right... don't they call it a 'retainer'
Posted by Jim Moser (Member # 6526) on :
When I sense that someone is going to be a difficult customer, I add a P.I.T.A. fee to the price. If that doesn't scare them off, then I am making enough extra to be worth the hassle.
Sometimes you need to point to your hourly shop rate and let them know the meter is running......
If I feel that the customer is shopping price, I tell them "If you are looking for the best price, I'm not your guy....If you want the best job, let's talk". That usually weeds out the tire kickers.
Posted by Diane Malesky (Member # 687) on :
Boy this Sure Is THE MOST Difficult responsibilty for me in the shop. Even after 13 yrs!! I totally agree that "you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar".... but there is a limit.
I have had a few situations this year that have really made us enforce our rules. One customer just right out refused to pay me. I had to take them to court. We won but he still didn't pay. I have to actually take it a step further. So weird! THANK GOD I had a Signed Agreement.
Basic Rules for us:
1. When Do They Need this? REALLY Need it? (New big rule)
2. What is their budget? This will help figure out what they really can afford rather than what they think they can. I just ask it professionally.
3. You can then determine where you want to take the sale... You can either schedule an appt at your location or theirs depending upon the job.
4. Submit Proposal Agreement with your Terms, Delivery, Deposit, etc...
Terms: Signed Agreement & 50% Non-Refundable Deposit can be mailed. After Receipt, A Full Color Design Layout will be Submitted For Customer Review.
Delivery: ___________ weeks FROM DESIGN APPROVAL!! This is a big one that they MUST Understand. I've had some issues recently with this. Even after they've SIGNED the agreement!
Lastly, GET PAID FOR YOUR DESIGNS!!! Even if it's only $25 Bucks! Get something/anything!! It's YOUR TIME!! So many sign makers aren't getting paid for this. I charge a Design Fee, depending upon the design & the customer, and it includes a Full Color Layout and 2 Revisions. If there's more, there's an additional charge.
Now, if we can all have Customers That Can READ!..... we'll be fine. Some customers that don't understand the delivery time, I explain the process. They have NO idea. I have to make sure to explain this in the inital consultation.
I just bought a new fridge. I PAID IN FULL & they delivered it 3 days later. They got paid!! Why shouldn't I?
Honestly is the best policy. I've grown so angry over the last 5 years and I started to burn out. I didn't even feel like dealing with anyone that walked in, let alone answer the phone. It was weird!! So, I have started being positive again. NOT People Pleasing. The honeymoon is over and business is just business now. I can't wait to retire by the sea and just practic mosaics or blow glass or iron work. For now I need $$ and business is business. No favors, no freebies, no rushing, etc... (yeah, in my mind! I want to master being consistent!! Or, go in sane! LOL.)
Think about it... on your death bed, will you be thinking about .."Oh Gee,... I didn't get that one sale.... or will you be saying I should have seen the world!!!?"
Good Luck to Us All!! We deserve it!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
1: You're over thinking this. If you don't want to do the job, STOP doing the job. No more revisions and wasted time. PERIOD.
2: There's only one way out of this...OUT. Whether it's polite, nice, amiable or downright ugly, keep it on a professional basis. When you let your personal influences spew forth is when it gets messy. Give your reasons, but avoid any personal commentary.
3: Understand that if you jack up the price to scare them off, it may not always work. They've already determined that you're the one they went with and may not care to start over fresh with someone else (they see it as lost time, lost money, additional expense, etc). If you honestly don't want the job, don't leave the opening there for negotiation. Cut it off clean.
4: You know where the door is and showing it to them is the easy part. Keeping them out is the trick. Leave no reason for them to doubt or question your decision or they're apt to come back looking for more...and usually expecting to pay less.
"Firing" a customer is not usually the first choice you want to make in business and often a tough decision, but once you've made that choice, it can more often than not be the right choice. Listen to your gut. It seldom lies to you when it tells you a customer is not going to be either profitable or worth testing your patience.
It may be uncomfortable now, but you'll sleep better later. Rapid
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