excuse me while I rant here- But I would like to know why a plumber, electrician, mason, contractor etc etc mke more money than we do????? We are expected to A) keep up with computer technology B) know everything and anything about how to manufacture and install outdoor signage to withstand all and every possible thing mother nature can throw at us C) be artistically knowledgeable about design and carving and illustrating and the print industry and paint technology Yet we are the LOWEST paid of the trades!!!!
In short I think we have to know FAR more than the average tradesperson and KEEP UP WIH IT.
I was reading Ray Chapmans thread yesterday about his businss and how the "moneymakers" came in and told him he had to become a cookie cutter in order to make real money and its been stuck in my craw ever since. How can we change this???
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Why are we the lowest paid? Because we choose to be.
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
Say WHAT???? I don't know Bruce. I did not choose to go into this "skilled trade" because it was the lowest paid. I did not say to myself gee, I think I will become a sign artist because it is the bottom of the totem pole for bucks. I think we have to come up with a way to change it. We rant about it but nothing changes. We are some of the most creative people in the world. Let's think our way out of this.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Did you check to see what the average sign person made before you got into it? Plumbers, electricians know full well what their pay will be. Now maybe the owner of a plumbing firm is not getting paid due to business problems, but that is another matter. It is what it is. Oh, but I hear how money is not the most important thing but the artistic fulfillment we get is just as important.
I dunno.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Well, Deri... I'm sure you see plenty of posts that say that sign makers should NOT be and if you are, you're not charging enough... "just raise your prices", "charge more", etc. etc.
I'll take a little different tack and give you my opinion... (besides the obvious "we just don't charge enough). I think customer perception is a lot of it...
People often view signs as optional. If they have a building project, the electrical and plumbing things have to be done, and there's not much variance on how they can do it. On signs, they know there's a wide range of things available and they try to cheap out if money is a little tight.
Also, the customer doesn't know what all goes into those other jobs, so the big number they see for a price estimate means little to them. They imagine the electrician will probably have multiple workers and specialized tools spending lots of hours, with all kinds of insurances and other costs. A sign or banner, on the other hand, is a little easier to put a price on, in their head. They just see it as a "piece of some kind of aluminum stuff with some letters on it. The computer probably did it all..." We've probably been guilty of making it look too easy.
Also, it's a product as opposed to a service. They can easily call around and get prices. There are no inspectors to insure an even playing field, so our price is compared to the new guy in town whose sign will look like crap compared to ours.... to a customer that is low on money, the cheapest price looks too good sometimes.
So I guess that leads to some of the advise you will hear.... do stuff other signs shops aren't. Do more complicated jobs that 'LOOK' like they'd cost a lot of money, so your big number doesn't sound so bad. However, I'm still struggling to overcome that age-old thing that drives Dan, Cam, Raymond and the others crazy.... 'they won't buy that stuff in my town.'
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Most of the trades on your list are "licensed". That tends to keep the hacks out of play. With the exception of a few cities, there have never been much in the way of restrictions on sign people.
The last regular job I had was as a journeyman sign painter at a commercial shop. I believe I was paid $11.50/hr. This was almost thirty years ago. Pay for a comperable position today is what??? The same or a few dollars more...maybe less. There was a time when our wages were much closer to that of a plumber/carpenter/mason, but those days are long gone.
I could go on a rant on how the trade has basically gone in the toilet in the last twenty years, but I'll spare everybody as it's all been said before. Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
I want both. Artistic fulfillment AND money.
No I did not look into it before I started actually. I fell into this business. But here I am. Loving what I do. But not getting the wage that a "skilled" plumber makes. And yes the toilet probably is more important than the sign on the door that says Women (or Men). But holy camoly, with no sign we'd have a real problem finding it.
Or there might be some pretty messy broom closets.
Posted by Dana Blair (Member # 951) on :
Because of the computer age, anyone that can afford a computer and cutter can make a sign. No matter how generic it is. Their low prices cause the lowball shoppers to affect the entire trade. As we all know, some customers only want price, with no regard to artistic merit, legibility, code, etc. Not everyone can be a plumber, electrician, etc as easily due to factors mentioned previously.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
This has been debated here many times before, but the answer is still the same. If you do the same work as someone else, that someone can and will do it for less money. Since there are no enforced professional standards, licensing, or inspections (beyond some electrical safety codes on electric signs), the low cost of entry makes this an attractive business that, to the uninitiated, looks easy.
The only answer to this is self- development of your own skills, the discipline to charge a fair value for your work, and the guts to say NO to customers who want the kind of work which devalues your skills, or who attempt to dictate prices and schedules. None of that is easy, but that's the only answer that makes any sense.
There are people who make damn good money in this trade. But a lot of them have lost interest in sharing their knowledge with people who complain about cheap customers and competitor's low prices, but then find every excuse for not making any change in their own behavior or policies. Not to sound harsh, but this is a hard truth that no amount of internet forum discussion is going to change.
Posted by Dan Beach (Member # 9850) on :
All the other trades have the same gripes about the "lowballers" working for nothing too . . .
Posted by Sean G. Starr (Member # 1549) on :
I think its a multi faceted problem and that is why it has never been resolved. Historically, all of the other trades organized, standardized, unionized etc. I don't think that could ever have happened in the sign trade, mainly because of the type of personality drawn to this business.
I see sign people generally split into two camps: 1. Artists who found that they could make some form of living while still doing art in the form of sign making. 2. Purely business minded people who have sought to automate and standardize the industry who have created the franchise model.
The artistic sign maker spends their down time learning new techniques and getting all excited by some new discovery (I am guilty daily of this) and I think that the business minded sign maker spends down time fine tuning their marketing, streamlining production and steering clear of the projects that eat up time and profit that the artistic sign maker is itching to get into their shop.
Another complication with all of it is that the shop with the storefront, the insurance, the shop trucks etc. has to compete with the guy making signs in his garage (yep, been that guy too more than once.)
So what is the answer? Regulation? Union? Anyone who has tried to operate a business in California (sign shops included) will tell you that its a living hell.
I view it that you can't have your cake and eat it too. My brother is a software developer and makes 4 times as much money as I do. If I did that kind of work I would want to hang myself. I do this kind of work because I enjoy it immensely and it allows me to survive. I have traded making money for doing what I enjoy, and I think thats a fair trade.
We will leave California eventually. Too many regulations, insanely inflated living costs and a growing irritation with the cultural changes here will force us out. And that's how it goes. Artists hate to be regulated.
As far as finding good pay doing what we do, Da Vinci had to hound the Vatican to get paid for his work. Some things may never change...
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
I Like John's Response but It boils down to.. "We have no test" Electricians have a test to become certified,
Plumbers have a test to become Certified..
Beauticians and Nail Techs Have a test,
Even Massage Therapists have a test.
But for sign makers. Naaa We're not that important. It is just not that much of a respected trade any longer. (Until we're not here) People wouldn't even know where to poo if it wasn't for us. (Ref. Irish Pub Post.)
Maybe the United States Sign Counsel, SIGA or other so called group that's suppose to be looking out for the Sign Industry, work on that instead of trying to protect all the large Corps who want to put up 5000 Digital Reader Boards along I-10 in LA.
I'll admit I am all self taught, But it's just in my nature to always do or be the best at whatever I do, So I am always trying to learn new techniques, Styles, Etc. Is going to make me more money, Hopefully yes as it will keep me ahead of the curve of the other shops around here.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Wow 4 posts while I was typing
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
I am not complaining about lowballers. I understand there is not a thing I can do about that. And to tell you the truth I am happy there is sign shops in the area who are happy to take the mundane jobs that I don't really want to badly. And no, unions are not the answer. I realize that. Frankly I am of a mind that unions are a big part of what has gotten us into this global financial crisis. That and the big banks. Everyone seems to think I am just a money grubbing little whiner. Yeah, could be. But no, I want fair price for fair effort. I put in years of college for design. I put hours and hours into figuring out how to run my equipment effectively. Hours and hours into researching my methods of manufacture. And yet when I look around me at what others are acheiving for far less time and effort it flips my *ahem.* And now I am watching while seriously gifted artists have to "move on" with different careers because they are not getting what they are worth! It's too sad!
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
Bill I think you've got the seed of a great idea there.
We have to educate the public somehow. Having worked for the Liquor Control Board (yeah, a job I had while my real job materialized) I watched wineries come into their own. They developed what is known as VQA. Vintners Quality Assurance. If you look on a wine bottle, usually some of the more expensive brands, you can probably find the VQA stamp. This stamp means that that particular bottle of wine has met the criteria of their regulations. And their rules are stringent. The wine must be of yearly consistant quality, has etc etc (can't remember now quit the board over 10 years ago) but I do know that I will not buy a bottle of wine unless it has that stamp. And the Liquor boards went wild advertising this. And it worked. Some of the smaller yet outstanding wineries cae into their own.
[ September 25, 2009, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Deri Russell ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
I have to agree with Cam!
When talking to a customer, look act and talk like a professional...AND don't act like you are afraid that they may walk away!
Have examples of your work for them to look at, then give them prices for good, better, best and outstanding. Just like plumbers, electricians, and the rest do. Then tell them a 50% deposit is required.
Tire kickers and cheapos will quickly make themselves very evident. In that case thank them for their inquirey...and get back to work.
I have been in this crazy biz for over 42 years and do not try to compete with newbies and lowballers. I will not work for 'burger flipper' wages.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i hear ya loud and clear, deri!
now that i've pulled my head out of my anal cavity(ya know, because i decided to go back to a career part time that actually pays well)...i feel good about passing on no profit jobs.
but in the sign industry...we are the problem...we are our own worst enemy. the industry and its **** poor model, lead by artists without a lick of business sense. but hey if people wanna work for free...have a ball....i'm all done. i work for $ only....and well, food...i'll do trade...lol.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Of all the points that were made on this post, how many are going to be used?
In my line of work, I get paid as much as any white collar worker. A fifteen minute job is fifty dollars and custom jobs which take a few hours of actual work net me three, four hundred dollars or more. Of course I am good at what I do and take care of business and act professionally as I deal with my customer and with the tools I choose to use. I cannot remember losing a job on any quote or meeting whether I've done it the following day or following month. My trip is never cheapening out on whatever it is that I work on and this is what separates the good from the great. My line of business may be different then yours but I never had to add other activities to make ends meet and I geared myself to make exactly what I needed monthly to accomplish my goal as this is what I specialized in. Even my palettes are custom made so I don't look like a magazine thief, right down to my killerkart rather then a milk crate. Looking professional always worked for me after all with my accent, I need everything to look correct Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
So what are you saying? Be professional- be good at what you do and you will get the money you deserve? Then why do we all hear of the Plumber's Crack jokes?
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
my wife's father was a plumber from Flushing Posted by Bob Kaschak (Member # 3146) on :
No matter what profession we choose to be in, signs, landscaping, pottery, carpentry, whatever, if we do the same "thing" as the other person, we can expect to have others do it for less.
By choosing to do something "different" or "better" than the other person, will result in creating something the customer just "has to have." And it's usually the type of work we really want to do in our hearts.
When no one else is doing that type of work, we are more in control of the pricing.
Our customers see our passion, capabilities, attitude, professionalism, and confidence.
Like any other profession. We get out of it, what we put into it.
Putting my heart into it everyday.
Peace, Bob
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Haha, just kidding.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
TALENT, AND HOW MUCH YOU REALLY BELIVE YOU ARE WORTH, AND THE TIME IT TAKES YOU TO COMPLETE projects........DICTATE PAY!!!!! i speak in defence of a couple REALLY GREAT SIGN DESIGNERS i have know, BUT they got into such ANAL, OCD, about a job they was doin, that it wound up most of there WORK WAS FOR LESS WAGES THEN....flippin burgers PAID...... for the same amount of time involved. and ive done "hack" work, in such a short period of time......i felt bad GETTING PAID, as much i did ...........for the time i had in it. BUT TOOK THE MONEY hahahahha!!!! and most WILL SELL THEM SELFS.......cheap, to get the work, ive done it enough times also. need money for a bill, rather then go for FULL PRICE... you undercut yourself.......SO YOU CAN GET THE MONEY FOR SURE. NOW.........with the uninteligent one with money to buy a PRINTER....... it makes it even harder to get good pay. just cause they can print for less then a $1 a sq ft..........THEY DONT WANT TO HAVE AN IDLE MACHINE........so they sell work for $2.......JUST TO KEEP THE PRINTER RUNNING!!!!!! really dumb......when you think about it. BUT that is how it is gona be........UNLESS YOU FIND something your better at......THEN THOSE WHO SELL CHEAP. like the guy who did all of SANIBEL ISLAND, FL, ROUTED/SANDBLASTED SIGNS. got himself a HIGH PAYING CLIENT.......and did ALL THE SIGNS....for YEARS!!!!! i remember reading an article about a guy with a tiny shop, somehow got the contract to do all the MARLBORO MAN VANS...... they did 10-15 years ago. one GREAT CONTRACT... is all you need. my freind in sarasota, did all the BUDWIESER SIGNS..... for years........TILL ONE DAY THEY GOT A PRINTER...and wanted him to come in a teach their $5 an hour employee........HOW TO MAKE SIGNS!!!!! find a "NICHE"........and go with it...i still hand paint, do a lot of "50's-60's art work, for collectors...who want it to look ORIGINAL, no stickers allowed!!!!!
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Deri.... my response was made "tongue in cheek" so to speak.
I once asked Bert Quimby how he could get three hundred bucks lettering a pick up truck. He told me because he asks for it.
Too many people are afraid to ask so they settle.
Because they choose to...
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
I know Bruce. And I' sorry, didn't mean to snip at you.
So I guess the general concensus is: we know we are the lowest paid, but we love what we do so we are just going to keep doing it. And if we are going to do anything about it at all we will increase our quality of work, if that's possible, causing more man hours.
Got it.
Yeesh.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I wouldnt think a damn good sign company or signman was the lowest paid on the totem pole. I think we make damn good money IF we are soliciting to larger commerical clients. Now if you take a sign guy that does vinyl and corolplast and banners all day to another one that does backlit, customer formed plastic and architectural, thats a big difference.
I dont think we can go around comparing what we make to what others make. we all own different business and we have to charge accordingly for our services. It comes out to whats left over after all bills are paid
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
boy talk about me not being able to type this am
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
There's too may sign shops! I hope the good ones survie the economic downturn. That may not be the case.
I wondeer if there's an element of truth in Sean's post? Which is to say, in a few years, will we look back to see the Business Types, (Sticker Shops) weather our economics better than the custom shops.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Food for thought on the "cheapening" of the trade..........GLASS GOLD!!!
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Deri: " And their rules are stringent."
I urge great caution before inviting Joseph Stalin into your business. People claim to enjoy artistic freedom, but ask for regulation...hmmm. (This in regard to private or government intervention.)
There are some great suggestions above, I haven't been able to implement them all, but one thing I find interesting about this trade is the disproportion thing: The knowledge required to make the signs is vast, the knowledge to run the business part is less. So I think the artistic types tend to assign importance along those lines, not realizing that diligent business practices are as important as the artistic knowledge. Maybe there's even an inverse rule sort of deal. The more artistic the endeavour, the greater diligence required in the business side.
[ September 26, 2009, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
James,
I vote for strict regulations.
No one could be called a sign artists without basic design skills. "Heavy Penalties"
There should be an apprentice program which bestows the degree "Professor of Letters"
Seasoned sign artists get full insurance, Free.
It' a criminal act to insult or argue with a seasoned artist.
You can't use vinyl knowledge as part of the degree program.
These are only a few good idea's I've got ratteling around in my head. I'd post others but affraid I'd set some folks hair on fire.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Yeah Joe, yer-a-makin' me nervous so far.
Truth is, if somebody wanted to press the issue, it would take little effort to point out the hypocrisy in what I previously said...."Listen Mr. Donahue, J Stalin was big on GOVERNMENT. As a conservative, you surely know that what creates a lot of government intervention are people that do not govern themselves. A private coalition of craftsmen is not the same as invasive government, in case you didn't notice"
Right-o, but why do I suspect that the shops with the best line of credit and the $175,000 store front will have more influence? How long will it be before there IS an influence on government policy by said coalition? Notice what happened in the funeral/casket business. Hoo-boy. Or the huge price fixing affair from about 9 years ago in agri-business. There is a movie out right now about the very incident. When there is mention of rules or organizing, I get skeptical, and rightly so.
[ September 26, 2009, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
James, What happened in the casket business? I had a customer who started up a casket business but got out of it. Just curious. You can PM if you want so we don't hyjack the thread.
Posted by Kathy Weeks (Member # 10828) on :
Just my 2 cents worth, Deri - you've got to stop thinking like a designer, and start thinking like a Signman. I was a sign painter before I became a designer - Let me tell you something - designers don't get paid what they are worth, but I've always got paid for my signs. I believe Si said it best, because it works for me: When talking to a customer, look act and talk like a professional. Have complete confidence in your skill and yourself. Give the price you want to get, and don't change it. I like the comment about Bert Quimby - he asked for the price he wanted; Bert was very successful, from what I've read in Signcraft. When I talk to my customers, I sound confident, knowledgeable, and I can see it and hear it in them, that they can trust me, and they give me what I ask for price. Occassionaly I get the cheapo's and I cut them loose quickly, because it's not about me - they have issues that I can't resolve. Be confident Deri! You Are As Good As You Think You Are! Be a strong Sign Chick! YA! Now go out there, and get YOUR money!! Posted by Kathy Weeks (Member # 10828) on :
Oh ya - I like Kelly's cartoon! Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
James,
I visited your website and encourage others to do so.
Now I see where you are coming from. Don't agree but now I understand.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
In Florida, we have a contractors test for state certification (electrical) and our county where our biz is located (and most surrounding counties) require at minimum a non-electrical sign contractors license to install anything non-electrical, including vinyl on windows. It cost us over $1000 to get the license and my husband studied as much as those taking a general contractors exam. We thought it would help us to get a leg up on the competition.
The problem is the cities, counties, state don't do enough to crack down on those who are doing it illegally. We lose jobs all the time because they tell clients they don't need to get a permit and they install for little money. They never get caught.
I for one am so sick of this freakin' business. The absolute only reason I am still dealing with it is so I can have the freedom to do what I want like taking my daughter to and from school and swimming practice, going on field trips, etc. If I could find a part-time job during school hours I'd close within the week.
I have no passion for it at all anymore. Anyone want to buy me out? Ha!
[ September 26, 2009, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Joe, you might be going ad hominem there, but thanks for the plug.
As far as caskets goes, I'm reffering to the whole death business. I'm pretty sure that here in Tn, caskets have now been deregulated, anybody can make them. But there were laws about licensing, and the cost of funerals was high, the funeral homes sold the caskets, and the whole thing was expensive.
Maybe it all depends on whether you can convince lawmakers of the perils of unlicensed practitioners in your trade. Take pianos for instance, hard to convince lawmakers of the hazard there. There has been a Piano Technician's Guild for years. They had high standards, testing, and a good reputation. It helped a tuner or rebuilder to be able to say he was a member. At one point,(I'm pretty sure) that my son was the youngest member in the country. It was all self governed, a pretty neat thing. But then they started charging something like $220 a year for membership, and the teenage boy dropped out. I sat in on one of the meetings, it was cool. They have smaller meetings once a month, in the evenings, instead of a big 2 day thing every so often. I thought it was more workable, and was favorably disposed to doing the same thing for local sign people.
But how do you control the thing, without that very element of control turning against the original intent?
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
I do not know the answer or why except computers did this to us
remembers going to school for signs, took a tour through the biggest sign company in Minnesota, and they said see these ppl here doing the billboard pictures and such, it took those ppl 12 years to get there working for us and they now start at $20 to $25 per hour depending on talent etc.. sure thought yeaaa after I stay and learn to be best I can maybe someday remembers the automatic door opener ..I'm a sign painter and they look at my work wow come right in I've offen said sign ppl need to organize and be tested on advertising know how to become a sign shop , now it's cash talks talent walks
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
"I do not know the answer..." Neither do I, there may be no answer, in this life anyway. But then again there may BE an answer. Some time back there was a comment made that stirred up a little commotion, it was something along the lines of "I'm surprised by the amount of intelligence among sign people." I don't remember how the thread went, but I was thinking about the statement recently, and...
I agree completely! Not because I expect sign people to be dummies, and am surprised they're not, no, it's because I would expect them to be average, and they're above average.
The problem isn't in making a guild, you can start that right now. The problems are coming to consensus about content, and as I said, keeping the thing from going the wrong way. Did you ever wonder about my tag line below? What was Benjamin Franklin getting at? He was pointing out the need for a REPUBLIC. A republic has founding documents.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Excuse me while a ramble here a bit...
When I first read the headline of this thread, my response was exactly word for word what Bruce wrote.
IMHO, he's exactly right.
For the record, I have a reputation for having the highest prices in town.
And according to two of my local competitors, my shop is the only one that's busy.
I believe in market forces. I disagree with JoeC. that we need some sort of regulatory body for the purpose of protectionism resulting in artificially higher prices to satisfy our romanticized idea of fairness.
I have no problem with a regulatory body for the purpose of safety. No one wants to see a sign fall over because some idiot thought that a 12" deep footing was sufficient for a 12' tall, 200lb., 50 sqft sign. But when we ask for a body of bureaucrats to regulate what we can and can't do for the sake of inflating wages, thats just suicidal. Instead of lifting us up, it simply brings us down to lowest common denominator promoting mediocrity instead of exceptionalism.
Are we really the lowest paid skill trade? I don't think so. I know I'm not. I charge the same rates as the local plumbers and electricians in my area without any problem. Nevertheless, to me it really doesn't matter if we are or not. We chose this as our profession. If we don't like what we're paid, who's fault is that?
If you want to be paid more, it is your responsibility to convince the client that you are worth more.
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
Lighten up Glen,
You've gone off the cliff if you think my post was anything but levity.
I'll leave it to you folks to tell us more of how the country is going down the tube.
I happen to bleieve our current troubles will soon be in the rear view mirrow and well be doing better than ever, but ther will always be problems for us to face up to. And there will always be dooms sayers and forums for them to vent.
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
I don't believe we make less than those other trades at all. In fact, I make more than any of the people I know in those other professions you've mentioned. If you're making less then it's because you're selling yourself short.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
[ September 26, 2009, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Bruce is right. If you're paid less than the trades mentioned, it's because you allow yourself to be.
There is another shop in the area that I keep trading the "highest price" title with. And I do between 75% and 90% of the jobs I quote. Why? Because the customers that call me already know not to call if they're only looking at price. Even the odd one that is concerned about price usually figures out I know what I'm talking about and price becomes secondary.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Too often people don't want to look in the mirror and examine the reasons for why they are not making the money they want to be making. But they are very quick to find reasons because of things outside their control, such as: • lowball people • market won't bear those prices • i can't sell that kind of work here
But do they stop and say, well, what are the things I can control myself. • continuing education in your skills • continue reinvestment in your business • investment in your own image (most important) • aggressive advertising and marketing
I shake my head sometimes when all the excuses as to why a sign person can't be successful or command the right dollars. So much of the customer's experience and/or expectation about YOUR business is PERCEPTION. I see so many sign companie's who's own image is nothing short of embarrassing. And their own lack of skills, doesn't help. And the lack of marketing they do for their own business.
I see horrible web sites for sign companies. Forget the aesthetics which are generally horrible and home-grown - there's no marketing on them. No search engine optimization. No chance of bringing in search engine business. And to me, its sad. Sad because I know first hand how a well designed AND optimized site can literally change a sign companies business. Most sign companies think investing $5k in a web site is ludicrous, but they are quick to invest $15k in digital printer, and have it sit. Or maybe they consider it a unwise investment because they bought Dreamweaver and think they can do it yourself.
I've only had my 'fancy' office for 3 years. Prior, I was home based. But if you visited my web site, saw my brochure, you would never know. Perception. Now I have the office, the nice waiting area, receptionist, beautiful office, awards on the wall, conference room, etc. You walk into my place, and you know its the real deal. And you know, it's not going to be cheap.
Yes, I don't do signs anymore but we still do a ton of vehicle wrap design and the logos that come with it. We just did a logo design, and vector-only design for a 18' landscape trailer (logo and some striping)- for $2100. The client understood the value of what we provided because it was marketed to him properly, and put into the right context.
So much is wrapped up in the customer's perception of what you do.
I continue to preach and firmly believe that design is your only chance to distinguish yourself, coupled with smart and aggressive marketing of your firm to the right audience.
And like Bruce said - you need to ask for the money. It takes some time - but that's the way you get the dollars. But you can't ask for the dollars unless the market is convinced you deserve them. Which goes back to the perception and image of your own business.
ANd Deri, I hope this doesn't come off as being directed at you. I think your ideas on how to improve the perception of the trade are spot on.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
The response to this, as usual, splits into two conflicting opinions:
One is that we are victims of forces beyond our control - computerization, lowball competition, cheap customers, etc., and that we are forever at the mercy of the decisions of others.
The other is that we control our own destiny, set the standards and policies by which we offer our services to the public, and that the activities of our competitors have no real effect on what we do.
I tend toward the second opinion, but I'm smart enough to realize the answer is a combination of the two. Even those who get "high" prices are constrained, to some extent, by the market - Bert Quimby may get $300 for a pair of truck doors, but he's not likely to get $3000, whether he asks for it or not.
So maybe we should ask ourselves - Why not? Think of it this way. Let's say Bert or any of us letter a truck for a high-end home builder for $300. That image is advertising, part of that homebuilder's campaign to attract customers. If the truck lasts five years, that's 60 months, which means he has bought highly visible and mobile advertising for FIVE DOLLARS A MONTH! My question then is, how could any rational person consider a $300 truck lettering job to be "expensive"?
The problem is, and continues to be, that we market our products as a fixed commodity instead of a value-added service. We do this because instead of convincing our customers of the advertising value of our service, we let them convince us that our work is a fixed commodity. There's no question why customers do this, it is clearly and forcefully in their interest to do so - if they paid for signage the going rate they pay for other forms of visual advertising, a truck lettering job would be as expensive as a newspaper or magazine ad; they'd pay us to create it and then pay us monthly to continue using it.
But that's not how it works, does it? We've all bought into our customer's idea of value, instead of our own. A big part of this is that it allows us to be lazy. It's easier to be short-sighted and take $100 for a putting helvetica in vynull on a truck door than to attempt to convince a customer that a well-executed and skillfully applied image is in his best interest; that even though it costs a lot more up front, it has a far greater return in advertising value.
From the kind of work I see out there, I'm guessing that about 1% or less of all the people in the sign business can even grasp this, and less than half of that put it into practice.
But here's the best part - those that "get it" and practice it consistently, really DO make a decent living, in spite of the indifference and self-defeating incompetence of the vast bulk of the industry. Believe me, if that wasn't the case, I'd have locked up my shop and gone to park cars at the casino a long, long time ago.
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
I think I have given a lot of people the wrong impression here. I am probably the highest priced signaker in the area. I have always been busy. I always have a list of work to do. I get a VERY good dollar for the work I do. I am not whining about how much I make except to say that I really don't think its fair that other trades seem to have a different ladder they climb. I have got to constantly be on a learning curve in this business. I am constantly either upgrading equipment (computers etc) or learning a new facet of the industry. Learning curves and technology is down time. But yet I look at the skilled trades in the area. A kid coming out of high school and apprenticing with my husband in his business (Masonry) can acheive the highest pay in his skilled trade within 10 years and KEEP that high wage for his entire career. He does not have to learn any new technology, he does not have to invest in new equipment, have down time while he learns it, none of it. In short he can continue doing exactly what he is doing for the rest of his life and create himself a lovely little nest egg in the process. (And yes it would be a boring job, and no I would not want to do it.)
Our industry is not in any way like that. We work our patooties off to get a good solid client base the first 10 years, then we spent the next umpteen years trying to keep what we have. While precariously balancing between should we spend the extra hours to make it that much better or will we start to go down the slippery slope of caring too much and losing hourly wage.
Other trades get to the top quicker, and for all intensive, stay there with little or no effort at all. We still have to keep learning, keep upgrading. Perhaps that will get to a point where the technology slows down enough that we don't have to but looking at the changes since I've been in business, well sheesh.
I just thought it would be nice if there were some sort of Quality (not test, I don't know what I am looking for here) something that we could educate the general public with that if they seen we had that "stamp" they could feel confidant in us and our work. Something that would at least stop our good artists from losing their shops, giving them a decent wage for their worth.
I guess I am at a loss for the right words because I don't know what it is we need. But I think we need something.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Dan misses the point. A lot of the trades don't have to invest in $5,000 websites, expensive new equipment or keep up with training and learning skills. Like Deri said, they keep doing well after their initial apprenticeship or education.
Those things that Dan mentioned are good things but they should be considered an adjunct to what we already have to push us to another income level not just to stay even or just get by.
I consider most people that frequent this site to be a bit more concerned about quality, skills and continuing a higher level of craftsmanship. Still many are getting too disillusioned about working in this business. For me, I have my days but am still surprised on how well I have weathered a tough economic climate for longer than the rest of the country has experienced. Next year, who knows?
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
Deri, what I guess I'm not understanding is this. Is it your competition is getting a lower price for the same work you do. Or nobody is buying signs? If nobody is buying signs, then it may be time to move. If your competition is undercutting you, then you need to work on selling the perceived value of YOUR work and maybe have a talk with the lowballers in your area about the percieved value of their work too. Dan Antonelli makes a very good point about perceived value in his post along with some great words by Glenn Taylor. This rant has been hashed out at least 10 times in the past 10 years on this board and it seems the same people come on here and try to exlain what it is that is being done wrong by those that are unhappy with their situation. Dan, Cam, Glenn, Si, Joey, Bruce, Kissy and quite a few others have opened my eyes to what it is that is being done wrong in this business and how they overcame it. The money is there, you just need to find out what it takes to get it from thier pocket into yours. Perceived value is probably the most important thing. Educating the customer is your job. Then educating your competition is the next most important thing. They need to know how much money they are leaving on the table by selling signs for pennies on the dollar.
Now if only someone can tell me why I always feel like Im overcharging for a job after using the sign price guide to come up with a price.
Posted by Preston McCall (Member # 351) on :
Have you noticed when some client calls up and asks for you, they want YOU. Ole Paint is right in getting a niche. When I satrted 21 years ago here there were three window splashers. The other two died. One of cancer and the other on a motorcycle. I 'inherited' the market, but still, I market my goods and services every day. You just have to keep pounding your name into people's heads, constantly.
Every year, I see someone else show up here and bang out a few windows. Great! I love competition. It makes clients aware of the need and gives me more work. Competition is healthy. What is difficult is that most of them last only a few months because they do not market their services.
I charge more than most of the skilled, licensed trades. I charge more than many attorneys. I tell my clients who tell me I am more expensive than their attorney to call their attorney if they want a sign.
The secret is keeping your overhead low and your prices high enough to weather the slow times and then, do the marketing. Snail mail, email, phone calls and certainly, cold calling! It is about selling and not just making good looking signs. It is a business, after all. This is not just sitting around and waiting for the phone to ring.
Think about how to get into a niche, where you are the only one and best there is for that product. Anyone can run a computer and weed out some vinyl. As soon as you feel that ball and chain attching to your leg, start running! Get specialized! Do something unique and stunning. Some clients will notice, but many are not smart enough to see. You have to show them.
They will never license us to make signs because all it really takes is a brush and a can of paint. You can have all the expensive equipment you want and yet people like me will be out there selling with so much less overhead. You just have to work smart and not just hard.
My two cents worth. Make money, no stress and have fun!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harris Kohen: Now if only someone can tell me why I always feel like Im overcharging for a job after using the sign price guide to come up with a price.
I can't answer that for you Harris... and really nobody can... but besides the obvious reason of nobody getting inside your head to ever really know the true source of your feelings... we also can't keep up with the many details of our friends situations...
..so, I'll state that this reply is for anyone, not just Harris... but since Harris asked, I'd have to ask do you spend $25K a year for a commercial space? $30K a year for equipment leases? $70K a year on employees? ...I don't have the figures in my head for other utilities, insurance, & assorted overhead expenses... but I do know that some of the work I do, I bid against people working out of their home, with half or less than half of my overhead expenses...
...even my own employees who know I am losing money this year, not getting paid anything... they don't always understand the higher prices I want them to charge, or the speed I want them to kick clients to the curb who waste their time... until it hits you in your own wallet... it's hard to train people to understand the cost of doing business...
But I don't believe the reason any veteran sign professional may feel like proper prices for signs are high, would be due to a global perception of a lowering value of our products. There certainly are folks who do not value our products as high as they should... but if we stop letting them name their prices... they can do without, or bring their perception up to OUR level, in order to make a purchase.
By the way, I took home a 6 figure income in '07, and still made money last year, while half my time (& all my savings) were spent expanding my shop) ...so, my timing wasn't ideal in many ways, and if I hadn't expanded last year, I'd be profitable today... but I have no doubt I will hit a 6 figure income again & this slow period is being used to educate myself on my new CNC opportunities & to position myself for dramatic additional growth as soon as consumer spending is on the rise again.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Wright: Dan misses the point. A lot of the trades don't have to invest in $5,000 websites, expensive new equipment or keep up with training and learning skills. Like Deri said, they keep doing well after their initial apprenticeship or education. ?
Really? You think the overhead to run a plumbing business or electrical contracting business is low? Besides the costs for shop trucks and vans, office/garage space, their overhead is pretty high. They need to continually replace 40k vans, their ad budgets are usually very high. And the markup on equipment is not substantial. NOt to mention their workers comp.
I'm not saying every say company needs to invest in a $5k web site, but I'll tell you this - nearly every successful business needs to reinvest money into marketing themselves properly; sign business or plumbing business.
This isn't a referendum on sign people needing web sites, it's a referendum on sign people needing to promote themselves professionally, the need to carefully craft a marketing message, and continue to stress the importance of design versus time and materials.
You can disagree - and that's fine - really.
I know some people don't agree with my stance on the importance of design or the philosophies which has garnered me my successes. And that's OK, too.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
My slant on "Skilled Trade". First, anything to do with signs in today's world probably shouldn't be called a trade. That is, that I know of. Probably it should only be known as a business most of all. Operating a sign "Business" today certainly will require some skill though. We have all seen proof of that right here on these pages as well as the portfolio pages. I refer to pictures of well crafted signage/pin stripe/mural et al.
Speaking only for myself as a boneified (journeyman) sign painter, certified in Illinois, that to become a skilled trades person required a s--tload of effort before becoming involved in a skilled trade. In many crafts..! Albeit, all who attend this site with many many references to your own slant and proof, obviously as noted. Still (In my mind)do not fall under the catagory of skilled trade. I'm not bitchn', just makin' a point. So what would define worthiness as being in a skilled trade today...Is to me someone who does not wonder why, but someone who can create the solution for themselves. If I still had to make money at making signs, you would see smoke from every open door and window at my building because I just simply had (and have had) the will to succeed. Also the desire to hear the CHA-CHING at my CASH register. The answer is simple...Just go OUT and GET IT ! That's called business today, not a skilled trade. As far as making signs is concerned.
What do I know, I'm crazy.
Jack
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
I absolutely love those posting on this forum.
It saves me time and money on the analysists sofa.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I didn't say or at least mean to say that other trades don't have to have equipment and keep it up to date and to some extent upgrade. What I am tired of hearing is that as much as we bring to the table, have learned and invested is always not enough if someone complains about making a living. Really? Now those things you mentioned should be done to bring it to another level and even expand but not to keep the status quo or to basically subsist.
As far believing in design Dan, you know full well most here are all about that and much more. You're not the only one.
[ September 27, 2009, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: David Wright ]
Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
In some ways I may be considered a skilled tradesperson and in other ways I may be considered a businessperson but first and foremost I consider myself a PROFESSIONAL because I feel the marketing knowledge and experience I have acquired along the way makes me very valuable to anyone I work with to further their business or professional aspirations.
Why should anyone with the knowledge base many of us have not consider ourselves as valuable as professionals including chartered accountants, doctors or lawyers?
Education and experience comes in many forms and a certificate on the wall from some accredited institution is no more valuable than the portfolio many of us carry!
It's been some time since I read The E-Myth Revisted but the most valuable insight I got from that book was the difference between working "IN" or "ON" our business. Many of us do not spend enough time working "ON" our business and a huge part of that is marketing ourselves because if we can't properly promote or market ourselves how could we possibly be trusted to promote or market our clients?
When potential clients see that we are very visible and top notch in our own presentation business will flock to your door in good economic times and bad. In fact bad economic times have always been busier for me than boom times because marketing is so much more critical then as marketing becomes a secondary concern when our clients have all the business they can handle.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Deri articulated her thoughts very clearly, and man, I can understand where she's coming from. Sometimes though, one needs to step back and look at things from a broader perspective. The sign trade took a really_serious_blow with the advent of computers. A lot of adjustment has been necessary. But as the saying goes, "follow the money". Many of those other trades are associated with construction, buildings, land, and...debt. In 1929, the crash was at the stock market. This one is in real estate. So many investments involved RE. The sub prime crises led to a drop in stocks, mutual funds, closures of banks. Ended up with A LOT of folks watching their retirement cut in half. I'm no economist, but I figure that dampened people's enthusiasm for buying stuff, and people are in wait mode. Waiting to see what will happen with land and RE. I'm pretty sure other countries (France) had a very different system of home loans, and have not suffered a sub prime crisis. But it has long been hard to get a loan there, people save for years to make the down payment.
So people are waiting to see what happens, and what if it's something like that? What if land prices deflate? Those other trades could be heading for their own day of adjustments. David Wright said: "For me, I have my days but am still surprised on how well I have weathered a tough economic climate for longer than the rest of the country has experienced. Next year, who knows?" It could be that the worst of our adjustments are past, or leveled off anyway.
But Deri started the thread, and -bump- she's asking about something along the lines of the Good Housekeeping seal of approval. Which sounds interesting, but wait, that would be the sign police...Is David Butler out there laughing somewhere?
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
quote:Now if only someone can tell me why I always feel like Im overcharging for a job after using the sign price guide to come up with a price. [/QB]
what's more disturbing to me, is that there is a price guide, telling you what you should charge...and you think its too high? if you don't think you should be making that $, why would a customer? there's a reason its priced that way. so people can be successful in business. if you always have the attitude that....well, my overhead is smaller, i'll charge less...small wonder this industry sucks as a whole. everyone in it must think they make too much $$. yet no one can pay their bills, afford insurance, put away for retirement or go on vacation. yikes....i shake my head. thank god for other trades that actually make $.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
Right on Karen!!
I didn't realize I was in the "Lowest Paid" skill trade! I get paid VERY well for the jobs I take.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
if you go into a field hoping to get rich your going into it for the wrong reasons. the money will come, with patience, experience and money management, common sense and a damn good cpa! everything is a building block. first year in business I billed out $7000 i will NEVER forget that figure and thats what I billed out! I dont know how I made it. every year after that was better and finally it got to the point where it was a pleasure to go to work. jobs were coming in, money being paid, debt was paid off.
i didn tpay attention to the bottom line I was LEARNING! i would do anyhting just to do it. I was fearless and before i knew it my business was not only supporting me but paying insurance, retirement and after 15 years of business i was debt free! I love this business I love my life, well at least when the ecnomy didnt suck! I took care of my company and in the end it took care of me. In return for it I will wait this out and STILL everyday try and make it trhu this bad economy. there is no other job or career I would have chosen
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
Stop selling signs... Start selling value.
Value pricing doesnt work per square ft. or by hour.
You can do a logo for a local small business, or a national chain. The work may be essentially the same for both customers but the value is entirely different. Price accordingly... When you price value, cost of manufacturing has little to do with it, and when you receive value either as a work or service, price has little importance.
[ September 28, 2009, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Mike O'Neill ]
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
So as to what Karen and Mike say, should the price be dictated by ounces or pounds ? Lots of value there... Wink'...
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Exactly. Mike O.
Stop selling commodities, and instead sell a service. You'll be fine once that distiinction is made.
Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
I have observed that many sign companies are pretty small in terms of staff. Many of you are one person operations with occasional part time helpers. We do many small "projects" comparitivly speaking. One pickup door and tailgate lettering job here, and a site sign there, then a pair of magnetics, then the hours on a commercial door and a 3' x 8' event banner. This is a full day for a one person shop...and at the end of the day you've grossed $800. That's not much when you have to consider overhead and materials....so the answer is volume or doing a steady flow of "high end jobs" So you get a nice job for a monument sign but it takes 4 days of work and a larger outlay for materials...at the end you may only net the same as if you did four days worth of small projects. My choice of a model to emulate would be a well ran FastSign or SignsNow franchise. These company's are set up to take on a mix of small projects and some medium to large projects, but they can complete enough of them on a daily basis because of staffing, organization, technology, and straight forward pricing that is consistant. The key is productivity....you gotta get the jobs done, invoiced and out the door every single day. They have good commercial locations and are open and accessible everyday like clockwork. I do not have the formula or organizational template they have developed...but I try to achieve their plan. Although I do not take home a big salary, I am buying the two properties we operate out of instead of renting. This slow and steady accumulation of equity gives me a sense of progress (it may be largely psychological) that I am being compensated like a skilled tradesperson.
We tend to measure success like observing the all pro NFL running back who makes over a hundred yards a game and don't recognize that there are hundreds of players who make a living gaining 15 yards a game.
One last point, spending time on the internet can have a real impact on daily productivity. I have to keep this in check for myself and my staff. In fact...i better get back to work now.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
To what Mike and Dan said....
Better yet, learn how to sell in the first place. We can talk about how we should sell this instead of that, but it doesn't mean squat if you don't know "how" to sell.
The boss was out of town today so she had our part-timer to cover the front counter so I could concentrate on getting some much needed design work done for a client's website. The phone would ring and I couldn't help but listen to her as she spoke with the client on the other end of the line.
My skin just crawled.
After she handled the 3rd call, I had to stop what I was doing and have a talk with her. I didn't have any choice.
We went over everything from phone etiquette to how to ask a question. Ninety percent of selling is being credible in the eyes of the client (i.e. - a comfortable command of knowledge and attitude).
She made a better effort afterward but I could tell she never reached any sort of comfort zone.
If you ever really want to learn how to sell, go work at a shoe store. That is where I learned to handle more than one customer at a time and how to "read" them. It was one of the best educations I ever got.
.
[ September 28, 2009, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies and sometimes things are out of out control. If someone created a computer program where anyone could buy a program to build a house, do electrical and or plumbing, you could bet your ass that the price these businesse charge would drop. Yes the piece of equipment that has made our lives easier is also reponsible for the downward trend in income.
I have been lettering trucks my whole life, I used to see beautiful lettering on them all the time. Remember Jersey Style? You don't see much of it anymore, it's 90some% computer generated crap.
Without sounding like a jerk, why Dan, if signs are so profitable are you no longer doing them?
Since the age of computerized sign software, the market is flooded with sign shops. I think it is totally unfair to put all of the blame on ourselves, we are responsible for some of this problem, but not all of it.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Thompson: I have been lettering trucks my whole life, I used to see beautiful lettering on them all the time. Remember Jersey Style? You don't see much of it anymore, it's 90some% computer generated crap.
Without sounding like a jerk, why Dan, if signs are so profitable are you no longer doing them?
Since the age of computerized sign software, the market is flooded with sign shops. I think it is totally unfair to put all of the blame on ourselves, we are responsible for some of this problem, but not all of it.
Signs can be very profitable. Since you're from NJ, I'm sure you know Bert and Rich Dombey, Scottie, and Brian Schofield. All extremely talented guys, doing beautiful, as well as profitable work. The good stuff is still around in NJ, but there's maybe 10 guys in the entire state doing really high end quality work, and about 300 doing really mediocre to horrible work.
My education and background, as well as business goals led me to stop doing truck lettering (I rarely did signs ever) and instead focus on a being a full service ad agency for small businesses. We still design a lot of vehicles, and have talented guys around the state handle the installs. I always thought it was a mistake for sign companies to only focus on one line of business - signs - therefore, this ultimately led me to offer other lines of business. And with logo design being a passion of mine, it ultimately became the foundation for our philosophy of offering small business all their advertising needs under one roof.
Having the unique experience of lettering and pinstriping since I was 13 or 14, coupled with a degree in advertising and 5 years as graphic designer, and art director, I approached how I would run my services. But even when 75% of my work was vehicles, I still made a very good living.
Sure, there are some market conditions to blame. But a smart business person sees what's happening in the industry or their trade, and makes the proper adjustments to plan for it. Those who don't, or are very complacent in their situation are sometimes setting themselves up for failure.
I realized early on that what I was selling was more than letters on a truck - I was really selling advertising. That's what I changed the term early on in marketing materials from 'truck lettering' to 'vehicle advertising.' From what I could see, small businesses needed more than their trucks done- they needed a logo, stationery, brochures, yellow page ads, and later on, of course, a web site. So that became my plan - less clients, spending more money. Signs lasted too long anyway - less chance of residuals from them
I'm not saying I completely foresaw the downward spiral 10 years ago - but I quickly realized that I could make more money sitting behind a desk designing than hanging off the side of a truck installing vinyl. So I really changed my focus, and pushed the business where I wanted to take it. And it hasn't been easy or a walk in the park to get here.
All I'm saying is - look at the road ahead - and plan accordingly. And if you're on the wrong road, takes the steps needed to change so that you can arrive at the destination you wish to be. There's may be plenty of detours and obstacles, but only you can be responsible for the path you travel - no one else can dictate that.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Well said, Dan.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I honestly can't offer too much on this thread other than to say what I have said in the past too many times. Go after corporate work. Those are the clients that will provide repeat and profitable work.
The guy who is doing the ordering is not the guy who signs the checks.
THAT makes a huge difference.
I always watched costs since was the one ordering materials and knew that I had to write the check at the end of the month.
I may not be the best example..BUT..Before stumbling into the signmaking BUSINESS I had languished, living day to day, running a body shop, which I have a country wide licence for.
After stumbling into the sign business, my income soared. Costs were low, profits were high. I retired out of the business 2 years ago because I made some serious money in it.
If I had remained in the bodywork business, I'd still be working and wondering how the next month's utility bills would get paid.
Was I a "great" designer? NO
But I did subscribe to Signcraft mag and did strive to improve my original rudimetary design skills.
Was I a "great" businessman? Not really, but I learned from my lessons in the previous business and never undercut the price of what my work was worth.
I went from "day to day" living to retirement in about 15-16 years.
The sign business was the best thing that ever happened to this vinyl jockey!!
As others have said...if yer in "business" treat it like a business, because the world is full of starving artists!!!
I know all about those who say they want to die with a brush in their hand....It was not for me..I wanted to die with a margarita in my hand and a palm tree shading me...I earned and attained my goal.
Oh...By the way...some good luck helps too!!! Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I consider myself an artist before a businessman. But I am in business and see the need to be profitable.
Passion for the art drives me much, much harder than the money I make. But that doesn't mean I forget about the money - nor charge enough for my work. I like to get the money part of any job out of the way early in the game... then spend my time doing what I love.
If you do exactly what everyone else does it will be very hard to charge a premium for your work. The market around you will dictate your price. If you specialize and operate in a niche market you can call the shots.
Luck certainly plays a part in our success... but I believe we can shape our luck to a big degree by positioning ourselves purposely. Be today (on a small scale) what you want to be (in a larger scale) tomorrow. Purposely do at least some small thing every day that puts you further down the road to your goal.
Dream big. Then beging setting that dream in motion. Follow your passion. Make some money in the process. Live life to the fullest along the way.
Be successful according to your definition.
All these things are easy to rattle off... harder to do. But all very possible if you choose to do it!
Living the dream in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Amen Dan
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
I think we should all go and work for Signarama, Signs Now and signwave??? That way we can mix the skills with the "business acumen".
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
The Sign Police LOL I haven't heard much about them in a while! We know how to improve our own businesses. It's been discussed here on a daily basis. I was thinking more along the lines of educating the general public. How they can easily seperate the milk from the cream. But *sigh* I guess no one has any ideas on how to do that.
I am adding this to explain myself a little better. When we go south in the winter we look at 4 to 5 star hotels. We try not to stay in anything under 3+. And we are quite willing to pay the price for it. If I were general public looking for a quicky corro sign with red letters on it I would not need to go to a top notch signmaker to get it. And if i did his rate would likely be substantially higher than I need to pay. I also would not want my $400 thousand dollar house to have a residential corro sign out front. We need a system to help the general public know who to go to for what. Perhaps it would help our more highly skilled artisans to create the client base they need as well as stop the tire kickers from buggin them on a daily basis.
[ September 29, 2009, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Deri Russell ]
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
quote:Originally posted by Deri Russell: The Sign Police LOL I haven't heard much about them in a while! We know how to improve our own businesses. It's been discussed here on a daily basis. I was thinking more along the lines of educating the general public. How they can easily seperate the milk from the cream. But *sigh* I guess no one has any ideas on how to do that.
I think the problem is, that the majority of the general public does'nt care about quality, price is the issue for them.
Think about the age of the person starting their businesses these days. These people have'nt even heard of paint, they grew up only knowing about vinyl.
Now comes the question, profit or enjoying what you do. Many of us are old school and don't keep up with the times. I know I should be doing things differently than I do, but I can't see doing mindless work for profit, so I will never be successful financially. But to be honest, I would rather live a modest life and continue doing what I love. I have no one to blame but myself, to an extent.
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
sorry David you must have posted at the same time I edited
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: Since you're from NJ, I'm sure you know Bert and Rich Dombey, Scottie, and Brian Schofield. All extremely talented guys, doing beautiful, as well as profitable work. The good stuff is still around in NJ, but there's maybe 10 guys in the entire state doing really high end quality work, and about 300 doing really mediocre to horrible work.
I'm sure it was'nt meant this way, but I am offended at this statement. There are WAY more than about 10 people doing high end work in Jersey, I can think of quite a few others in the state equal to the friends you just noted. Maybe they have'nt chose to be in the public eye (Signcraft, Signs of the Times) but they are out there.
[ September 29, 2009, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: David Thompson ]
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
David-
It wasn't meant that way and pardon the exaggeration. I think you understand my point however, that very few people in the state are doing decent work (and not just our state). I think you might agree that they are in a pretty big minority. You drive down the same highways I do- and really - out of 50 trucks you see, how many are noteworthy? Not many. Even in the state known as being a mecca for truck lettering.
Sorry if that was taken the wrong the way -
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
As a comparison, there are many fine sign artists in the state of Texas, but they are in a minority. Many I know from my own travels, but mostly from seeing their work in the various journals.
It doesn't mean that each area doesn't have capable folks doing good work - they just don't have the exposure of others.
But what Dan is saying is true - the really outstanding designers usually will only make up about 10% or less of the total number of sign folks in any area.
Last week I was in Tampa and St. Petersburg and saw lots of signs, but only a small number really caught my eye as being well designed. The rest were functional but not outstanding.
And it's not just that people want cheap signs because even less expensive signs can be well designed and attractive without having gold leaf and hand carving. The plain old For Sale sign can be attractive and it doesn't cost a penny more - just some thought in the layout process.
Edited to add: At the beginning of my workshops I trade business cards with the students. It is a sneaky way of seeing the design capabilities of those attending. It is amazing how few even have brought business cards or have one, and then how poorly they represent the people who are supposed to be knowledgeable about what is attractive and effective. The business card doesn't cost less because it is poorly designed.
[ September 29, 2009, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I haven't read through the responses so forgive me if I'm repeating another's thoughts.
What keeps ringing in my head are Dan's words.
#1. In a nutshell... if you chose to be like everyone else, you'll be charging like everyone else. Create a niche and you can charge what you like.
That said, when I was in school, I applied to graphic design houses vs. sign shops for working practicum. One student in my class was also a 'graphic designer' that charged very big bucks and got it.
In order to charge what they do, it helped to educate myself inside the graphic design world. The way the stuff is presented, how they charge, why they charge what they do... it's all educating.
When I had my storefront, I indeed charged graphic designer prices coming out of a 'sign shop.' Because I built up the education to know I could and how to do it. My logos brought up to $2500. Each. Because I asked for it the right way. Not everyone will buy. But those that will, get it.
My last logo I charged $2k for and I mainly used their own artwork, but heavily revamped it. I sold a total image for all their apps, not just a logo.
I chose the title Graphic Impact so it didn't read the word signs anywhere.
A different mentality is required that you indeed CAN charge for. You just have to approach things differently. Get the goods from a graphic design house and find out for yourself how they're getting paid well for what they do. Then, educate your customers the same way.
As to why sign shops charge what they do, refer to #1.
Do your stuff the best, and you can name your price.
I'm currently pushing out firetruck graphics at good prices. I can do this with no effort. Think what I could do if I MADE the effort. Which I'm purposely not doing because I'm putting my time into building other ventures.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
After reading Raymond's last post, I'd also like to add...
Setting up graphic design meant to be read on paper is a much different ballgame than creating signs. I've seen lots of sign designers that are poor typesetters, and visa versa.
Having training in both areas (when I went back to school) really helped me drastically improve my work and ask for the prices I did.
"Ninety percent of selling is being credible in the eyes of the client (i.e. - a comfortable command of knowledge and attitude)."
This statement couldn't be more true. Once I became comfortable in my new role as a designer rather than a sign jockey, I swallowed hard and started asking for the bigger prices. Once I convinced myself I deserved it, it was easier to sell it.
[ September 29, 2009, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: David-
It wasn't meant that way and pardon the exaggeration. I think you understand my point however, that very few people in the state are doing decent work (and not just our state). I think you might agree that they are in a pretty big minority. You drive down the same highways I do- and really - out of 50 trucks you see, how many are noteworthy? Not many. Even in the state known as being a mecca for truck lettering.
Sorry if that was taken the wrong the way -
I originally said I knew it's not what you meant, I'm just tired of people thinking the same 5 or so guys are the only ones with talent in NJ.
As for seeing nice truck lettering, that was one of my original points. Everyone keeps saying step up to the plate and provide high quality work that peel and stick shops can't provide. Big rig owners are known to be proud of their trucks, if you can't draw them away from the vinyl slappers, it somewhat proves my point that it comes down to money, not quality.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
David..
quote: As for seeing nice truck lettering, that was one of my original points. Everyone keeps saying step up to the plate and provide high quality work that peel and stick shops can't provide. Big rig owners are known to be proud of their trucks, if you can't draw them away from the vinyl slappers,
Are you saying that "peel and stick" shops and "vinyl slappers" are a group of folks who have no talent and are not worthy of lettering big rigs?
If so, all I can say is, I have seen as many crappy jobs "slopped" on trucks with paint as I have "slapped" on with vinyl.
Please give it a break with putting down vinyl shops. There are as many crappy painters as there are crappy vinyl guys.
If I owned a big rig I would be wanting vinyl for my graphics and lettering. Easier to remove than paint when I trade up. No ugly, brush strokes that fade differently depending on the colour, and thickness after a couple of years.
Using a brush does not immediately elevate a person to a superior status. It just means they can use a brush..that is it...nothing more.
Most shops today use vinyl..many use either paint or vinyl or a combo of both..and some use only paint.
It is the design process that sets one shop above the others, not the medium.
In a recent post Rene and Pierre collaborated on the lettering for Rene's "retro truck"..It looks excellent and for the job it needed traditional lettering methods to look authentic.
But on a modern big rig it is not needed unless the owner want's it.
I also wonder how many "painters" now use a computer and a plotter to produce their pounce patterns? If they use a computer to do that does that still make them better than "peel and stick" guys?
OK..off the soapbox..next up?? Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
It is going to take years of change and education of customers what is a good or a bad sign , everyone has different needs and wants. You can be sign painter or a sticker guy if you aint got layout skills your signs are going to look ****.
We are all looking for a bargain every industry is the same priceshoppers etc etc with the global economy the way it is you do what you gotta do.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I have to agree with Dave Grundy - this isn't a paint vs. vinyl thing, and blaming computers is as pointless as blaming the auto industry for the decline in carriage making. The debate here isn't about how we produce our services, it's how we find a way to be compensated in proportion to their value to our customers.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Design is the difference - it has nothing to do with materials or software.
In response to Donna's post about the difference between signs and printed materials - I agree that they are different fields, but design principles remain the same, whatever the media.
Positive and negative space, contrast, weight, and color. Basics that do not change. Darkest dark against the lightest light (weight or color) draws the viewers eye to the priority element.
[ September 30, 2009, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Shane Durnford (Member # 8125) on :
What Raymond said
[ September 30, 2009, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Shane Durnford ]
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
Are you saying that "peel and stick" shops and "vinyl slappers" are a group of folks who have no talent and are not worthy of lettering big rigs?
Of course I'm not saying all, but there are a good percentage in my area that can't design to save their souls. Whatever the computer spits out is what you get from them. I can't tell you how many times I've seen out of shape letters from using distortions that the designer never bothered to clean up.
BTW, I even call myself a Vinyl Slapper in days I'm not painting.
If so, all I can say is, I have seen as many crappy jobs "slopped" on trucks with paint as I have "slapped" on with vinyl.
Please give it a break with putting down vinyl shops. There are as many crappy painters as there are crappy vinyl guys.
With the percentage of people who only do vinyl to the people who do paint, I find this impossible to believe.
I will agree, a poorly laid out painted job is as bad or worse than a poorly done vinyl job
If I owned a big rig I would be wanting vinyl for my graphics and lettering. Easier to remove than paint when I trade up. No ugly, brush strokes that fade differently depending on the color, and thickness after a couple of years.
So vinyl that shrinks, peels and cracks looks better? Let alone the poorly laid out design that leaves lines where one color overlaps another. I use a premium 9 year vinyl, and my paintwork outlasts vinyl.
It is the design process that sets one shop above the others, not the medium.
This was my point, you don't see the quality of design work going downhill with the advent of computer generated work? If not you must be living in a magical land of lettering. Almost every sign person I talk to who has been in this business since BC (before computers) says the same thing.
I also wonder how many "painters" now use a computer and a plotter to produce their pounce patterns? If they use a computer to do that does that still make them better than "peel and stick" guys?
You missed the point, I'm talking about the majority of stuff I see that is poorly designed, not the media. Unfortunately it is mostly coming from vinyl shops.
I use the computer for almost everything I do. Masks make for a cleaner and faster execution of the job. I also incorporate a lot of vinyl in my work. BUT, I just don't type out words, pick a font and call it a day. If I use a distortion tool, I edit the letters to put them back into shape, I design my own fonts, I hand draw a lot of my layouts, scan and clean up. In other words, I put design into it.
When I complain about vinyl, it's not about shops like the people who visit here, these people do put the effort into actually designing. If they weren't I'm sure they wouldn't be here sharing what they know and learning from others.
I'm complaining about the shops that don't put in the effort to learn how to do proper layouts and in my area, they are the majority and they are strictly vinyl.
[ September 30, 2009, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: David Thompson ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
OK! Let's be brutally honest!
If you are not making decent money in this business...which of the following apply:
1. You have no grasp of your costs to produce a sign/print.
2. Your work is so mediocre that you have to compete with newbies and bottom feedersd.
3. Your insecurity keeps you from quoting higher prices.
4. You have the personality of a buzzard sitting on a manure spreader.
5. You are an "artist" and won't compromise yourself.
[ September 30, 2009, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
6. Sales dropped 40%, (while several overhead reduction options would require sacrifices difficult & expensive to reverse later)
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
7. The majority of available customer base is comfortable with mediocre low priced work.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
8. This would be a non-topic if the recession did not happen. Or if the home sign business had discipline/organization.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
The truth is, each and every one of us gets to set our own prices. There are those that charge far more than electricians or plumbers and have no issue in getting those prices.
I am a firm believer that marketing and business skills are the most important in this business as far as financial matters are concerned. Someone with those traits will be far more successful than the incredible designer/ crafstman without. The ones that will ultimately rise to the top are those who possess both sets of skills.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle, with decent artistic talent and marketing skills, I fall short on the business end and I know that that is the deciding factor on how profitable my business is. At the same time there are those with far more talent than I who are really struggling and those with far less artistic skills that are doing very well.
Yes, the recession has dealt a blow to almost everyone, but those with the marketing and business skills will have found a way to turn that to their advantage and make it work for them.
Unfortunately there are those that despite their skills lack the confidence and constantly procrastinate and self sabotage. It's sad to see them struggle, but ultimately they are the only ones who can rectify that.
In the end we are who we are, for those who are struggling on the business end, perhaps it would be prudent to focus on that aspect in down times.
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
A brilliant example of this debate came to me in reading the first few posts.
A regional manager for a high-end tractor dealership was assigned to our local store, not more than 1000 feet from my shop.
In the past, the shop would call me up for projects and I would just "DO THEM".
Now, the manager wants to re-letter their fleet of (6)service trucks. He wants them to look like the trucks from the last location he was at. He gives me the pictures etc, I develop an estimate and send him the proposal.
He calls me back, on a Friday afternoon, no less, and "informs" me that I "need to do something about this price. It is more than double he had the trucks done for at his last location." He goes on to state that if I want his work, I need to "fix something."
Hmmm,,,after reviewing the pricing very carefully, knowing full well that he was going to get other bids, we adjusted the profit margin percentage to a point where we were making a decent profit and giving him a good value for the work he was asking to have done. Somehow it wasn't acceptable for him.
I reminded him that we were using a premium product (3M Comply v3 with 8518 laminate) and we could give him a 5% quantity discount and that was it. I also asked him to make sure he was comparing "apples to apples."
His comment was, "I don't care if it is apples to apples. I need to be within a certain price point. And you're not it."
My quote included stripping and re-lettering all the trucks on a weekend so that HIS BUSINESS WASN'T LOOSING TIME & MONEY having his trucks down during the work week-at no extra charge.
Yep. Try finding that somewhere else, where the sign company is concerned about you running YOUR business. That's how I operate. I know it is difficult to be without the piece of equipment that keeps your income coming in, so I offer that for my clients. Maybe that's why I am higher...I actually understand the running of a business, vs slapping stuff on and getting paid.
I left the project go for about a week & half and sent a followup email. He called me back last Friday, sweet as honey, asking me what we can do on the price. I honestly replied that I can't go any lower and to figure in lost time shuttling vehicles into town or wherever to get them lettered....(2) guys at x hours times x dollars for 6 trucks over x period of days.
He then gave me the name of the other company that had lettered the trucks previously. I spoke with the designer and found out that AMAZINGLY, they were not using 3M with w laminate, but a "house brand" of vinyl with a spray on "laminate". So I checked out pricing on this material and the "laminate". Now I see why I am higher.
The largest portion of "cost" on my end was running a gradient stripe along the length of the box of the truck. Well, I am now waiting on a price from the other company to use that material. I will have them run the stripe and ship it to me and I will install it, since the client has no problem with mix & match vinyl on the trucks.
So instead of loosing the entire job, because I am higher, hopefully I will find a compromise to get this job in and done and still make some $$ doing it.
Is this copping out? Nope. Client will be happy they got a lower price point and kept everything local and quick. I will be happy to have $$ coming in in a typically slow time of year. And I won't be responsible for the stripe if it does peel etc. and can prove my point even further!
So holding my ground on the price really proved in this instance to be the right decision, even though it meant contemplating the idea of maybe not being to be able to make a mortgage payment in full on my shop for the first time.
Don't know if this helped or made matters worse. BTW, last week I was ready to close up shop, let the bank take my building and go waitress somewhere. The ups and downs of our lovely trade!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
How come only a handful of people believe this to be a skilled trade?
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
I think it is the old "art class" mentality.
Big deal if you can draw; can you throw a spiral?
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joey Madden: How come only a handful of people believe this to be a skilled trade?
Because for many in this trade there is no skill.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
Nikki, Brings something to mind. That is...how her customer attempts to run her business for her. Huh? Is this happening other places? Do clients see you as their dependant?
[ September 30, 2009, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: jack wills ]
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
Guess, I'm missing your point, Jack. I lowered my price by less than $150 on $3600 in lettering plus the additional T&M labor for removal for a quantity discount, which I think is pretty standard in the industry.
EVERYONE haggles on an item that is more than one and if buying part of the project from another vendor in order to get a $3000 job is bad, then I guess I am missing the boat.
Since I have kids, I don't get the nice 9-5 day. I choose to work some nights and weekends as a trade-off. So we just schedule work to follow our lifestyle. $3000 for a weekend...yep, I'll trade!
And, yes, local builders, electricians and plumbers are being asked to reconsider their prices or find other solutions in order to get the work done. I have friends and family in all the above trades and their complaints are the same as ours. Except sometimes worse when a non-union shop is bidding against a union shop.So I don't see it as having someone else run my business.
As far as being the "dependant"...not sure what you mean there, but I have clients that won't say BOO! unless I tell them to. They come to me for everything; sign work, marketing, consulting etc.
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
Also, just got a call from a client, that commented that his wife was "playing with the logo on the computer" so she could send it to me to use.
Oh yeah...skilled talent.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Jack, I don't see it as the customer trying to run her business. The way she describes the situation, he's trying to run his.
The other shop trained him on what to expect.
It looks to me that the other shop found a way to produce a job at a lower cost while still maintaining a specific profit margin. There's nothing wrong with that.
The good that comes out of this is that Nikki has learned something new that she can apply to her own business and become more competitive without sacrificing profit. This will serve her well on future projects if she will apply the lessons learned properly.
.
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
If we go on strike. The same thing that happened with the writers strike will happen. Reality shows. Low cost, no need for writers and the quality of programing suffers. Then Netflix will pick up the slack when people dont want 120 channels with nothing on. Then somebody will figure out how to undercut netflix. Que Sera Sera
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
Nikki, no harm intended. Glenn, I like your points. I have actually seen A-holes attempt to school me in the past. But, still being harangued by a client never the less casts extra negative energy toward the project.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Question: What is more important - Price or Profit?
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
Jack,
Maybe my post came across oddly, too. The manager of the location is, to be nice, a chauv, and I like the rest of the staff and want to keep my work there. In 6 months when he's gone, it is back to the staff to make decisions again.
That is probably the biggest challenge for me too! School the "pusher" that I won't be bent; I'll throw a bone here and there... Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
be more demanding....
demand more from yourself
supply a superior product
demand a higher value of your efforts
my version of supply and demand I guess
GEET
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
I haven't read every single answer, but of the one's I did read, only George came close to what I think is the truth. This trade went to the dogs when some brainlees committee decided to eliminate it from the apprenticeship program. WHY?? It has always blown my mind that people just sort of "get into signmaking". While that may work for some, for too many it does not. You don't get paid like the other skilled trades, because officially it isn't a skilled trade. Simple as that. Those with the power and connections should create an official three year apprenticeship, and things can only get better.
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
I like Lotti's perspective.
If we could make a list of "skilled trades", which of those DO NOT have some sort of certification or accreditation to their profession?
Even interior designers are certified...graphic designers have the design guild that they have the "option" to belong to. I really don't think being a "member" of ISA or SGIA counts...as long as you pay your $$ you are a "member".
The only "certifications" we have in our industry are the so-called vinyl certifications put on by the manufacturer of each product or in two cases, the distributor of those products.
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