I am giving someone some pricing for lettering on 4 trailers. The problem is that they all have lettering already on them, and he wants a price for removal. I told him I could give him an estimate, but it's tough to give an exact price because of the many factors that affect how quickly old vinyl comes off.
Basically he said he doesn't want to move forward unless I can give him an exact price for everything. I even offered to do the removal on the first trailer for a flat fee, and depending on how long it takes, I might need to adjust the price accordingly, but he wasn't interested. I don't want to lost my shirt doing all 4 trailers if I under-estimate the removal and it takes 3 times as long as I thought.
How would you handle this?
[ March 27, 2009, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Chris OBrien ]
Posted by Sean G. Starr (Member # 1549) on :
Hi Chris, I faced this same scenario in Kent, Washington a few years back. Its an almost impossible request. One truck may go smooth, and the next one take you twice as long. I am pretty firm with removals now (I spent 4 days removing decals on a box truck that I "guessed" would take one day) and charge my hourly shop rate ever since. I know this answer may suck, especially if you need the work, but keep in mind that maybe this guy has had removals done before and knows something you don't. My 2 cents...
Posted by Mark M. Kottwitz (Member # 1764) on :
I agree with Sean.
I would tell the customer the best you can do is give him an hourly rate, and what it takes it takes.
Or he can take it off, and once he starts, he will probably work at it for an hour and call you...
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I surely agree. There are too many variables (brand of vinyl, grade of vinyl, how long it's been on, chemicals it's been exposed to, etc.)
This might be one to walk away from, unless you can get this customer to cut you some slack. Or like Mark said, let him do some himself and see what a wonderful job it is.
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
Do you have a Maaco near you? I used them in the past to remove vinyl, they gave me a set price and was well worth taking the vehicle to them to be done. The price was cheap enough for me to make a profit on the removal , Plus I did'nt have to bust my butt doing mindless and messy work.
Posted by Chuck Churchill (Member # 68) on :
Offer to take off 10 sq.ft.for free. Pick the worst part of the trailer you can find (Up high on the side that got baked on because it was always facing the sun). Keep good track of how long it takes. Figure out how many square feet you are going to have to remove. If 10 sqft took 60 minutes multiply the total sq.ft. to be removed by 6 minutes/sq.ft. Now add 25% to the total number of minutes. That should be the upper end of the amount of time it will take. Multiley by your hourly rate for vinyl removal. Add in some dollars for consumables and wear and tear on your equipment. Add more for travel time. Give him the number and tell him you can only do it weather permiting (unless you can get them indoors).
Both of you agree to live with the quote. You will probably make out pretty good since you will get faster and smarter as you plow through the trailers. The last one will take 1/2 the time of the first one. The project will take you less time than you estimated giving you a better hourly rate than you asked for.
This can be profitable work as long as you estimate the time high and cover off weather related stuff.
Posted by Sean G. Starr (Member # 1549) on :
Wow Chuck, that's an awesome approach. I will be using this to estimate my next removal for sure...
Posted by David Macomber (Member # 10854) on :
Chuck thanks for that tip. Ive always wondered this and usually get bit by it.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Well,
My approach most likely will not win popularity but I absolutely hate removing vinyl. I charge by the hour only. I can give an estimate but it is only an estimate. I charge by the hour and no fractions there of. I charge a separate rate for that as well. It's only fair to both you and your customer. If someone was squeezing me for a hard price I would aim high and make it known that is what I was doing.
[ March 27, 2009, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
be up front tell him the scenarios, let him have a go taking it of. I would charge your hourly rate be up front I am sure the customer would appreciate honesty.
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
This is a good post. I don't know why it is always such a big deal to remove vinyl!! lol. Try showing your client how fast you can put it on and then let him see how much slower it is to remove it!! Signs are always about design and installation , BUT removal is a much bigger deal. Even with a MBX vinyl zapper (including wheels)it is a large task and must be charged out accordingly, so the customer has to be prepared to pay for it or get it removed himself.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I wouldnt take it off. i would have nothing to do with subbing out having it taken off. let him take care of this. Throw that responsibility on him. I despise taking off decals esspecially something this large. You mentioned you didnt want to lose this job but im sure you didnt want this to turn into a 3 ring circus either
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
quote:Originally posted by bruce ward: I wouldnt take it off. i would have nothing to do with subbing out having it taken off. let him take care of this. Throw that responsibility on him. I despise taking off decals esspecially something this large. You mentioned you didnt want to lose this job but im sure you didnt want this to turn into a 3 ring circus either
How does this help the OP? Chances are if he comes back and tells the customer he's not interested in removing the vinyl, there's a good chance he will lose this potential customer.
I don't know about you, but with things the way they are, I would hate to lose a new customer. Does removing vinyl suck, YES it does, that is why you charge for it.
You tell the customer, "I'm not intetested", he or she goes elsewhere and you wind up with a rep of being hard to deal with. Remember bad news travels a lot faster and farther than good news.
Signpainters already have a percieved reputation for having attitudes (at least that is what I have seen and heard all through my career), why add to it?
Posted by Bob Noyes (Member # 8317) on :
To change the subject a bit, how about when you remove the vinyl and the are under the vinyl under the vinyl is still nice and glossy and the rest of the are is "sand blasted". I have had a client complain that "you can still see where the old graphic was". I started giving estimates with an option for buffing it out some, which I let a local kid who does really good body work do for me.
Posted by Sean G. Starr (Member # 1549) on :
Hi Bob, I have always heard of this referred to as "ghosting" and in my experience, buffing it out with rubbing compound is the only method I have had any success with. I try to always let the customer know that it may leave the ghost behind after its removed, and that if he wants it buffed out it will cost extra etc. Its pretty messy, so if you have a kid who is set up to do it, that sounds ideal.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
How many use "heat guns" how many "use torches" how many use the "zapper wheels" how many use "heat tree lamps" how many use "steam"
This has often puzzeled me,some spend days with heat guns or wheeled zappers, others have luck with torches or steam.
I have never found anything that beats the "heat tree lamp system", its clean safe, quiet,fast, non messy.
I've tried all of the above, and nothing beats direct sunlight (when available).
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I have to agree, Sean. The heat from the sun works great - even in winter.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Next best thing is a heat tree.
You can get the vinyl temp just right and it peels right off. Too hot and it stretches and breaks, Too cold and it leaves residue behind. The heat treat can be moved in closer of farther to get the temp just right.
I peeled a welscargo trailer. One side took long time old way. Other side went fast and easy.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
you got it Curtis !
Roger
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
well david upon reading OP post It appears that the owner of these trucks are NOT being very lenient as to the pricing of the removal of these older decals....i would ask myself, WHY?
the I would have to wonder IF he or his guys have already tried to remove and saw that it was a bitch. I dont think the owner is being very fair to the signguy. and anyone on here that has removed this crap b4 knows it can go several ways. It can peel off like HP vinyl nice clean and easy, it can come off in small peices, and in some cares it can bring paint with it.
Ive been doing this for 20 years, YES Ive peeled this off before, and yes it sucked. And I agree with you in this economy we all want the jobs coming at us but I would rather do nothing than do something that was to possibly turn into a fiasco.
My reason for posting the reply I did was based a good bit on the customer not being very understanding or lenient towards Chris. If chris charges too much he wont get the job, if Chris goes to low he'll eat the job. When I say I wouldnt take it off I would tell the customer its best if he finds another source for removal.
I dont know how you took the reply but thats my opinion
Posted by David Thompson (Member # 2395) on :
I certainly did'nt mean my reply as an attack on you.
I can somewhat see where the potential customer is coming from asking for an exact price. No one likes getting an estimate on a job and then being hit with a bill much higher than the original cost. I think the customer is trying to avoid a fiasco, by know exactly what is owed when the job is done.
If I did'nt farm this job out and needed to give an exact price, I would quote it high and tell the customer, "This is the worst case scenerio, should the vinyl come off easily, the price will be less, and of course, I take no responsibilty to damages incurred while removing it.
I know I have a limited budget these days and should I require someone's services, I want to be sure I can fit their bill into my budget, therefore I ask ahead of time.
As for the customer trying to remove the vinyl first, from my experience, it's very doubtfull. Most customers don't have a clue to anything having to do with the lettering/sign business. I too have been in this game for a while, 37 yrs. to be exact.
[ March 29, 2009, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: David Thompson ]
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Sub it out. Look for companies that detail big rigs. Check with your local used 18 wheeler dealers, they can point you in the right direction. These people do this all day long. Get a firm price from them. Mark it up a little bit.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Tell him how to do it or even better show him your equipment to do it and tell him where you got it if he would like to purchase it.....then see how long it takes him to back out your door and say "OK, you just go ahead and do it then."
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I go with the majority of opinions here, removing vinyl is a PITA.
My favourite route was to just say "Removal is charged by the hour" No exceptions.
If the customer balked at that, I would just tell him to go ahead and do it himself.
I think I could count, on one hand, the number of jobs I lost by sticking to that stance.
(BTW, the same approach applies to removing one-shot.)
One of the most humorous to me, but annoying to a customer, results was when a trucker attempted to remove one-shot from his Peterbilt. He got tired and turned over the job to his wife. She did the job quickly..........
With a bucket of soapy water and a 3M ScotchBrite pad.......
It looked like a great job while the soapy water was on the truck, didn't look quite as great one the water was rinsed off and the surface dried!!!
Ever see a burly, tatooed trucker with tears in his eyes????? Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Something about this guy's attiude tells me that he knows that this job is going top be a bitch. And since the Cape Cod area seems to be the new poverty zone ( except for the kennedys)..I would figure my price based on it is so difficult that my fingernails woild be a bleeding mess after the 1st trailer, my fingers would be bloody stubs by the end of the 2nd trailer...and that I would have to pick the vinyl off with my teeth on the last two...nad that is the price that I would quote!
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I'd request to do a section as a test, and quote it in such a way that it'll be x amount of $ an hour at so many hours IF the removal came off the same way the section you did a trial on did.
And always add...
"Changes/unknown factors to the above quote may alter price."
You have no idea how many times that one little sentence has saved me.
[ March 30, 2009, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Thompson: I certainly did'nt mean my reply as an attack on you.
I can somewhat see where the potential customer is coming from asking for an exact price. No one likes getting an estimate on a job and then being hit with a bill much higher than the original cost. I think the customer is trying to avoid a fiasco, by know exactly what is owed when the job is done.
If I did'nt farm this job out and needed to give an exact price, I would quote it high and tell the customer, "This is the worst case scenerio, should the vinyl come off easily, the price will be less, and of course, I take no responsibilty to damages incurred while removing it.
I know I have a limited budget these days and should I require someone's services, I want to be sure I can fit their bill into my budget, therefore I ask ahead of time.
As for the customer trying to remove the vinyl first, from my experience, it's very doubtfull. Most customers don't have a clue to anything having to do with the lettering/sign business. I too have been in this game for a while, 37 yrs. to be exact.
""This is the worst case scenerio, should the vinyl come off easily, the price will be less, " I have customers who come in and want me to quote on those grounds??? Now why would I price a job and then if I can do it quicker, give them some money back?? Would it be the same if i underpriced and then asked for more?? I don't think so.! Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
quote:Originally posted by david drane: "This is the worst case scenerio, should the vinyl come off easily, the price will be less, " I have customers who come in and want me to quote on those grounds??? Now why would I price a job and then if I can do it quicker, give them some money back?? Would it be the same if i underpriced and then asked for more?? I don't think so.!
I totally agree. You might come out okay on this job, but sooner or later you will get burned when quoting prices. So he can't have it both ways... and I'd tell him that. If you are forced to quote a price and stick with it, you have to quote enough so the 10 jobs that take less time than you figured will cover the 1 CLUSTERMUCK you miss it on...
There are really only two options I would give and I'd explain it to him politely and clearly.
A. I do it by the hour and you will save money, because you'll only get charged for the time and materials it took.
OR
B. I try to estimate how long it will take. I add for unknown circumstances. Weather. That maybe my helper will take off to go on a picnic and I'll have to do it myself. Extra materials. PITA charge. Extra time that you will be out there talking to me, and any other possible slow-down I can think of. Sir, I will cover myself for the worst possible scenario and will not lose money on this, and that's what you'll pay regardless of how it goes. So it's guaranteed to cost you more. I'll come out better this way, but I'm like Geico... I'm here to save you money.
There is a lot more risk to you when you quote a price. The extra reward of figuring it high is the only thing that can justify this risk... in the long run, you will lose money unless you figure for the worst (and collect it even on the jobs that went easier than you expected).
Posted by Chris OBrien (Member # 5409) on :
I appreciate all the input. I did what most of you suggested and said that it's pretty much impossible to quote an exact price, and that it's going to be an hourly removal rate + materials.
I'd love to get the trailer lettering, but not at the expense of losing all the profit on the removal. Plus there are some other small "red flags" that I have sensed since dealing with this customer so far, and I have a gut feeling that it could potentially be one of those real PITA jobs.
Posted by Paul Luszcz (Member # 4042) on :
Chris,
The company that removes the transit vinyl for the T is in Plymouth. They use a mobile pressure washer with a chemical formula to remove vinyl at a reasonable cost.
Call me if you want thier info.
Paul
[ March 30, 2009, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Paul Luszcz ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris OBrien: Basically he said he doesn't want to move forward unless I can give him an exact price for everything.
"The exact price is $xxxx when you bring me the trucks already stripped, ready for application. If you want me to remove, removal is $x/hour and there are too many variables preventing me from giving you a guestimate of how long that will take. You could remove it yourself."
My removal rate is higher than my normal shop rate. It sucks, it's boring, I hate the heat gun and it makes my fingers hurt and my hand cramp up.
BTW, I will not put up with being bullied like that by anyone. That treatment is totally unacceptable.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
this is the reason for me baling out on this, his attitude up front...he knew!
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
I always tell people that I charge $60/hr for removing vinyl. They either agree to pay the price or they can take the crap off themselves. I have a $10/hr worker remove it and make decent profit if they want us to do it.
Posted by Maurice Papineau (Member # 10769) on :
Its to hard to quote removal up front we charge per hour had a nice pete in this week with gold leaf vinyl with no regular vinyl behind took two of us 1.5 hrs with heat guns and being very careful not to damage paint. gold leaf = little pieces chipping off= sore fingers= pain in the @$$ So the driver gets lettering charge + removal fee we have the same attitude If they dont want to pay take it off yourself. (they usually want to pay after they give it a try)
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Hey Paul was right.
Last year we had to remove vinyl froma pontoon/house boat that was dried up & faky sticking in all those nie crackly crevices. We had to rent a steam jenny for about $75, but it took it RIGHT off. No, it was NOT the pressure washing, it did not come off til the STEAM hit it, then it flew off!
Chris, call your local renta-center or something like it, & see what it costs to rent one. I guarantee you will be happy!
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