It's a quiet day here, so I got to read a few posts, and one took my fancy in so many ways. Many were positive responses, some not so. That's ok, I'm a bit of a fence sitter from the point that I try to see all sides. That's what makes me able to make a better judgement.
My reply post was this:
Welcome aboard Larry. WOW !!! What an initiation..lol.
Seemingly, not just at the "sign game" but also in the industry, you have a lot to learn. When you think you know enough... you are just scratching the surface. I have been in this game for 13 years - and I know Jack (nothing). There are people who have been doing this for more than 50 years and they STILL post on here. And they are good - damn good. They are gifted people whom others respect their opinion, and they still are asking others "how would you do this, or how do you do that". I commend you for being ballsy enough to take it, and in the end your sign looks great. I truly hope also that there are 4 or 5 others just like it in the corner that no one will ever see (we all have those still lying around as a reminder), and I also hope you made no money on it. Simply from a learning curve, it is the best way to protect an ever growing asset - your knowledge. Often, the learning curve is not how to do something, rather how not to do something. We have all been there. From my point of view, I now reflect and appreciate the "beating" I got on a few posts. It made me push harder - much harder, before I even dreamt of posting something. Yes it's great to hear "that's an awesome sign" and probably you may have initially thought it was. That's ok. We've also all been there. But here is an important thing to remember. Many, if not most signwriters / signmakers work alone. Often no backup. That means you are the guy that suggests the substrate, prepares the substrate, designs the shape / layout, chooses the paint or vinyl, makes the sign, and delivers and installs it. That is between being the Accountant, Office Manager, IT Department, Fleet Manager, Postal Service, Advertising Guru, Maintenance Manager... and so the list goes on and never seems to stop growing.
Welcome to it Larry, a valuable lesson has been learnt. Bad days can be had by all, but beware, sometimes bad days can bite you in the ar$e. And nobody wins. Listen, learn, read, absorb. When you have asked a million questions, start on the next million. This is a board for sharing, and one day, I truly hope you will answer a question with a wry grin on your face and a small chuckle from within, remembering the days when a choice between MDO and plywood was oh so confusing.
Best of luck to you my friend.
So...
there must be some awesome memories about "the early days", the stupid questions you asked, the mistakes you made, the misjudged quote etc etc. I for one am totally self taught. So I never did have anyone to show me the mistakes that they made and how not to do things in a particular fashion.
For some reason, I always seemed to knock over the "perfect match" paint that just took me hours to mix... not only over the carpet (for comfort) in the workshop, but over the bench, the artwork with all my handwritten measurements and reminders, the tools, and OMG the shop dog.
What are your early memories in say the first year? Mine are wonderful, albeit embarrassing at the time, now a joy to look back on and share with a laugh and a shake of the head.
Fortunately these days I make few mistakes. I think more and rush less. I guess I have taught myself a lesson.
Cheers - Gregg
[ February 05, 2009, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Gregg Parkes ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I remember coming home from my first day of working at Wilke Signs in Tonawanda, NY...
My Mum asked me how it went and I told her about the sounds and the smells and looked her in the face and exclaimed, "I know what I want to do for the rest of my life!"
Posted by Gregg Parkes (Member # 7710) on :
So what were the mistakes you made in those early days Bruce?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I became a sign painter instead of a lawyer.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
In 1992, NASCAR crew chief Frank Stoddard asked me to come into his shop to "fix" a set of numbers on the doors of Stub Fadden's Buick. The guy who'd done them added an imitation gold outline and Franky was almost irate. It WAS NOT what they asked for!
I packed up my airbrush and masking materials, but didn't have any paint. Frankie said he had some and, OMG, a paint brush, too.
It was the first time I'd held an actual lettering brush and my first experience with One Shot paint.
Frankie gave me both the paint and brush. Ever since that day, nothing's been the same.
So when people ask me how I got into hand lettering, I tell them "Frank Stoddard is the guy to blame."
Rapid
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
Hmmm, mistakes. I did a window splash for an Indian restaurant that said "DELI LUNCH BUFFET" Quick knock out job, It was kind of weird that he wanted "DELI" on an Indian Buffet, but what the hell, I couldn't hardly understand him so who am I to argue with a guy I can't hardy understand.
Well............ 2 days later he calls me to say "You put Deli on the the Window...Deli, like sandwich. "I wanted Deli, like everyday!" LOL, I got a good laugh out of it. He wasn't laughing though. I came out and changed "Deli" to "daily" and he gave me a free lunch.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I thought it was going to be like Delhi... A "Daily Delhi Deli"...
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
the biggest mistake I ever made in my pinstriping business was moving to Grants Pass. Outside of that and outside of using a computer for anything other than the internet, I am happy just using my hand. As far as mistakes in my work, my substrate is a vehicle where the only way you can see both sides at once is to open the doors Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
First electric face I did was by hand lettering with one shot, since it was black on white plex I got away with it...kinda.
First lettering I did on masonry, rough block, I used my quills...took a while....a loooong while.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I would think as I look back that I have made just about every mistake there is to make in the sign game... most more than once before I learned.
Back when I first started doing window splashes for Christmas at the tender age of fourteen I would lay the windows out on the outside of the glass and then paint backwards on the inside with water based paints. I was self taught, had never seen a window splash before I started. I just figured it out as I went.
I remember I used a wax birthday candle to mark out the design and then would wipe it off with a towel when I was done painting. It removed most of the markings - at least good enough for them to be not seen at a glance.
I remember going back the next year to sell the windows to the same merchants and getting some complaints, apparently the wax was still on some of the windows after a whole year and they couldn't figure out how to get it off.
I scratched my head and came up with a new solution for layout... those small bars of soap from hotels... my mom snagged the used ones for me at the hotel she worked at.
The wax residue... well I moved from that town a little while later... and it may still be on those old windows...
I've under quoted more than a few jobs through the years, sometimes very badly but I always delivered on my promises and my guaranteed price no matter what.
I've dropped huge sculptures, smashed shop vehicles, destroyed equipment and burned valuable property when I was welding on the job.
Though the years I've filled many, many dumpsters with failed projects and experiments.
I have to admit I make mistakes each and every day, even now.
Making mistakes and trying things that aren't guaranteed to work is the very best way to learn. And while I have certainly learned a great deal through the years I still very much feel as if I have but scratched the surface of what is possible. I am determined to go a lot further before I am done!
Its not often I get stuck in the ruts of my own making. Life is very exciting in Yarrow...
-grampa dan
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I remember well my first large wall mural. Had no idea what to charge... and bid badly... how long could a mural take anyways??
First off I hired a friend who had a pressure washing business to clean the wall. Then talked him into leaving this scaffold for me to use. It was a lightweight aluminum one - only two feet wide and three frames high... kinda scary on a gravel parking lot - especially way up top. I did the first section and then tried to move it by myself... and almost managed it too... and then it fell...
... across the hood and windshield of my friend's pickup. I didn't make any money on that job - not even close.
A couple years later I was offered the chance to letter a wall that was 300 feet long with a graphic and 18 foot tall lettering. I was pretty confident and bid the job. I rented a swing stage for this project. It was more than fifty feet high and SCARY! I never knew about safety belts and personal safety ropes in those days. The wall and painting project suddently got VERY large as I painted it. A project I had figured out to last three days turned into something much larger. I remember about the third day I was almost used to the scary heights - almost feeling comfortable... I was painting about 6 feet from the top and another guy who was installing a cooling system on the roof poked his head over and casually mentioned to me that I had forgotten to put the counter weights on the lift beams I was hanging from - then disappeared from sight. I called but he was gone. I was suddenly very freaked and debated whether to lower myself to the ground or go a shorter distance up to rectify the problem. I was scared stiff and rightfully so. In the end I went up to coutnerweights. I learned in a hurry to check everything twice before I went over the edge in the future. I also remember quoting $1,200 for the project. After scaffold rental and a considerable larger paint bill than I had anticipated there wasn't much money left to cover my labor on the project. The owner told me as he paid my bill that he thought the job was worth many times the price I had quoted. But he didn't pay me one nickel more than the bill I presented which was for the quoted price. He shook my hand and thanked me for a wonderful job, and then told me to think more carefully next time before quoting. The painting is still there (about fifteen miles from where I live now) and in good shape more than twenty five years later. I remember the lesson well, each time I drive by.
Then there was the time I was painting a mural on a high wall in a bank. It had dark stained woodwork and plenty of polished marble which was gorgeous. I remember coming down the ladder with two gallons of paint, both full... only I was in a hurry and came down facing away from the ladder. Somehow my foot went through the rungs and I went down head first from about 8'... and one of the paint cans containing white acrylic paint literally exploded when it hit the ground. I was more than a little dazed and had the breath knocked out of me, but I was concerned about the acrylic paint drying on all that dark woodwork and marble. I learned plenty in the next frantic minutes about cleaning spilled paint. I also learned its best not to walk down a ladder facing the wrong way.
One of my first board signs was for a company picnic. I painted it on a 4x8 piece of 1/4" thick masonite. It was done with acrylic paints as I had recieved the order at the last moment and it was temporary. I was in a rush as the dealine was short, but I also desparately wanted to join my friends who had already headed up to the lake to go water skiing.
Acrylic paints dry fast and it was almost dry when I threw it onto the roof of my car to deliver the freshly painted sign. I had not yet bought roof racks. Then put a rope through the windows and looped it over the sign on the roof before tying it securely. I kept the driver's window open so I could reach up with my hand and stop it from sliding off the roof. I started out slow and things were going well. Gradually I increased my speed as I got braver and braver.
I remember I could see my destination when the unthinkable happened. I could feel it with my hand reaching out the window as the sign was ripped away from my grip... a glance in the mirror confirmed what I already knew too well...
The sign had folded over in the wind and snapped in half along the rope line. Both halves flew in the air and landed behind my car on the road. Thankfully, no one was hit with the pieces. When they hit the road however the piece that had flown the highest broke up even more in a rather nasty fashion. I screeched to a halt, popped the trucnk and tossed the remnants of the sign in. I delevered them to the picnic a block away, broke out some duct tape I had for emergency use (and this certainly qualified) and quickly taped them back together. Then I found my client at the park and gave him the sign with my very best smile... no charge. It was a great day for water skiing as I recall!
I could tell hundreds of true stories about my many adventures of aquiring an education as a signwriter! Now, in retrospect they are very funny although I wasn't laughing at the time.
Education while very valuable is also costly, no matter how you aquire it.
-grampa dan
[ February 06, 2009, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
The "HNSC" is VERY exclusive international sign company. Not just the three "Directors" but the very few "employees" asked to work for us.
Today, I kept upthe high standards set by our managing director.
Simple replace vinyl lettering job on inside of a Dentist Surgery window. Replace THREE letters picked off by bored kids in the waiting room.
Could not find the original job file done over 5 years ago by my daughter Vicki. Measured the size of existing lettering and recognised the font. No problems. One trip to "Job"
Told customer minimum charge was 1/2 hour just to replace 3 letters, even tho place is next to my PO Box I visit every day. No problem on charges they said. just do it.
Cut a "T" "D" and "d" outa scrap vinyl 50mm letters in black for inside window. Went to put on first time. Right font ok ,, but medium NOT BOLD!
Back to drawing board !!!!
Next day tried again. Everything fine, except when I measured size of letters I realise immediately the "T" on top line was not right size ... Vicki's design had reduced it by 5mm and I had measured the main lettering.
Back to the drawingboard!
Today , "T" and lower case "d" fine BUT as I looked from the other side window while writing out the invoice i saw the "D" was up-side-down!!!!!!! Hinged wrong before being put on inside window!
Back to drawingboard!
Tomorrow I will fix it.
Don't think there was any profit in that job!
Up to your standard Sarge?
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I have quoted without looking at the building and taken the customers word that the brick wall to be painted on was GREAT! and it was they just forgot to mention the row of power boxes on it
I have fallen for the "bubba down the street said he would do it for $50" and dropped my price to $45.
I have fallen for the "put your name on my car and you will get so much business"
I have fallen for the "if you give me a good price on this one truck i got 30 more you can letter"
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
haven't we all Bruce, haven't we all. Usually we fall for these things trying to be a nice, reasonable guy, but we forget everyone is not so nice and honest.
Nice stories Dan, reminds me of a few of mine. I started my sign business out of the back an 89 Honda. I used to dread getting the 4x8 sign orders and strapping them to the roof. I learned quickly about shrink wrap and bought a roll of it to transport big boards on my honda, haha. I'm a happy camper now when I just slide it in my truck and go! No worries of the board flying off the roof. That's truly a nerve racking experience.
[ February 06, 2009, 07:51 AM: Message edited by: Dawud Shaheed ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
I didn't know we made mistakes, I thought it was called 'extended & unscheduled research'.
I've done the gallon-of-paint-spilled-on-new-brick-pavers-outside-the-shop thing, and underquoting, and tied myself with rope around the waist & over the roof & back under the eaves on the other side, while I dangled over the edge of the other side of a roof to get at what I couldn't reach on a high wall from the trestles & plank, on tippytoes, with the brush wired to a broom-handle...
etc etc- all 'research' ! Posted by Theresa Hoying (Member # 7330) on :
I had to make a sign for our town park stating that all Violators will be Prosecuted. When they went to hang the sign the town employees brought it back laughing...It read "All Prosecuters will be Violated"! They still get a chuckle out of it today and I am guessing it was 8 years ago!
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
One of the early lighted sign faces I did was on a used face we got from the customer....1/4 inch plexiglas, 3 1/2 by 10 feet. We stripped it, cleaned it, masked it, cut and sprayed it in the new logo and colors, and had it laying on the bench, peeling off the remainder of the mask. After removing the last of the mask, I picked it up to hold it up to the light to see how the colors came out. As I held it over my head...POP!!! The damn thing broke right in half. Obviously we lost our you-know-what on that one.
We were working on a race Jeep one hot day, getting it lettered and striped. We had one of those water fountains that chills the water, and were filling Pepsi bottles with water and drinking them as we worked. For whatever reason, one of us had also put some lacquer thinner into a Pepsi bottle and had it sitting on the bench. Without thinking, while changing paints, I saw the bottle, reached for it, and took a big swig. Man....you talk about something lighting you up!!! I couldn't get that stuff out of my mouth quick enough. Thank God, I didn't swallow any.
One day, I had to go back to a job site to finish touching-up some signs we had installed the day before. I had a brand new gallon of red 1Shot. We had an older Chevy van with the step thingee where you open the sliding side door, and we used to set paint cans there when we were on the road. I was in a hurry to get back to the shop, and didn't put the lid on tight. One corner I went around, the can turned over. I didn't hear it, but the lid stayed on most of the way, so it just ran out a little stream. I drove 25 miles like that, and left a stream of red paint all the way back to the shop. The right rear quarter of the van was red, the tire and wheel, rocker panel, the step, and the place where I parked it. I never knew a gallon of paint could go so far.....
Other than that, I've never made any mistakes.....................unhuh. lol!
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Talking about "spilt paint" Ian ....
Drove downtown in the van one time to get the mail from the Post Office. On the way back (about 5km) I noticed a white paint trail on the road slowly getting thicker.
"Some poor bugger has had a large can of white paint fall over in his truck and doesn't know it, I thought."
Guess where the trail lead to and started?
My front gate!!!!!!!!
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Made 500 "Reality" signs.. Spent the following weekend driving around town changing out letters.
was removing a 4x16 sign off a wall.. Hey I'm tough I can do this off the ladder. Last bolt comes out and I have my knee under the sign to keep it from falling. The sign,The ladder and me all to the ground and the sign decided to take a pitstop through the front window.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Did a "black board specials" recently ...
"Carrots" 99c Kg"
2ft high fluro letters on a bullboard in the mall carpark.
Left an "r" out of carrots ... carots 99c Kg
Customer phoned me later that day saying he had so many people coming into his shop looking for cut-price diamonds or to point out the spelling mistake .... don't worry about coming back and fix it!
[ February 06, 2009, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Jon Butterworth ]
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
I tell you it is not easy to become a DIrector in HNSC! Takes many years of "experience"
I pride myself in my walldog skills too.
Marking out word "Toowoomba" 30 ft up on a wall in 6ft Helvetica Bold, came up 6ft short end of wall?
From ground level can't see "chicken scratch" layout .... ok, sign going to be slightly off centre then. Nobody perfect!
Up again painting TOOWO ,,, Guess how big a missing 6ft Helvetica "O" is ?
Caught that one in time .... easy fix. And sign centred then! Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Mistakes I've made? Well....let's see.... if I ever make one, I'll post it here. Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Bill, that reminded me of one I did... a wall sign, not real big, maybe 4x10, had to be taken down. It had lift eyes on the top and there was a bill board on the roof, so I decided to run a couple lines around the billboard support and have one guy on the roof play it out while me and another guy on ladders guide it down. We disconnnected the poer line, unbolted the shoes from the wall, and when that last bolt came out, me and the other ladder guy got the weight of the sign real fast, as the two ropes snapped, that thing weighed a TON! We almost lost it but managed to get it down. Lesson learned, always, always take out the face and see what's in the sucker, not only was it a welded steel frame, but it also had a steel stub and one of those old very very heavy rotators. It had originally been a rotating pole sign adapted for the wall.Musta weighed 250-300lbs.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
It's funny some of the remarks here. I can't say I have ever really made a mistake. Maybe I have kerned a word or two improperly or aligned some lettering just a tad off. If you really watch yourself and check things over this should never happen.
Okay, I have blocked all bad memories because some are too painful to remember.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Another bit of 'research' involved a fullsized opal-white acrylic sheet in an unlighted signface of two sheets. The owers wanted to change their name on the second sheet only- the front part could stay the same. It was originally painted out with lacquers on the outside surface.
No problems, I'd used paint stripper to remove this stuff before, with brilliant results. Grab the can of stripper from the shelf and brush it on, then go & have a cuppa while it gets to work. Return and it is a ruined mess- the can of stripper was NOT the same brand as the old stuff I'd used. The old stuff was compatible with acrylic, the new stuff eats acrylic sheet. Brief panic, and I figured I'd clean the gunk & goo off, and flip the panel over, and letter the new 'outside' face of it.
Phew! Next time really read paintstripper cans carefully to determine what they can't be used on- not all are alike!
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Hey we all make mistakes ,,, some only minor, some really bad
Take the attitude you have just made the worst mistake ever .... things can only get better from there on!
Laughter is the best medicine in the world!
Being able to laugh about yourself is better !
Being able to share that laughter with others is better again!
[ February 07, 2009, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Jon Butterworth ]
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