so in my 16 years of business i have never heard of rear window lettering on a truck or van being illegal...have you? apparently we have this new colossal arsehole for a usdot sheriff and he's making any business with rear window lettering to take it off...even if they aren't required to have dot numbers. now i have actually lettered cops vehicles at the police station and i had a honking sticka on my rear window...nothing ever said. i'm just wondering who's responsibility it is to know this? am i at fault because i didn't know? do i reimburse the customers that i've lettered rear windows for? or do we split the difference? wwyd?
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Karyn,
In New Hampshire, lettering on vehicle windows has "never been legal" according to the person I just spoke with from the NHDOT Department of Safety.
Here's a link to the "rules" they provided to me...
I dug a little deeper and asked about both window tinting and perforated materials (you know, the umpteen million trucks with flags, eagles, wolves, etc) and NONE of them are legal, but not for the reason you might think. The DMV sees them as a problem for looking IN, not as an obstruction of view for the driver of the vehicle looking out.
Go fig.
Hope this helps... Rapid
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Karyn, what NH or Federal law is being sited specifically by this USDOT sheriff? It sound to me like you've got a bureaucrat trying to justify his existence more than anything else.
I know that here in NC a vehicle can be stopped if window tinting exceeds a specific amount.
There are no laws referencing perf window graphics for vehicles that I can find.
S
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Nicely done, Ray.
Saf-C 3217.02 Unauthorized Materials on Windows.
(a) No sign, poster, sticker or other non-transparent material shall be permitted on the windshield, rear window or any window ahead of the rear portion of the driver's seat, except as follows:
(1) Official inspection stickers which are placed in an authorized position behind the rear view mirror;
(2) Privilege stickers, such as naval base, military installation, road use tax, university or college parking or police department shall be placed on the windshield or any window ahead of the rear part of the driver's seat and not more than 3 inches in length or width;
(3) Any stickers or decals required by federal law on new or used cars, in the possession of a dealer; or
(4) Official electronic toll collection transponders which are placed in an authorized position on the windshield.
Makes me wonder if Window Perf is considered "Non-Transparent".
[ February 05, 2009, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by James Chrimes (Member # 5864) on :
Karen, they started to enforce this ne amendment about a year and a half ago. Funny how you can't have any stickers in your window but you can have a big toolbox or headboard that compleatly blocks the window. Used to be if you had two side mirrors and could turn your head half way you were good to go. I thought that window perf. was still ok, but I better read Rays info before I go and put my foot in mouth.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Glenn, Jimmmy, etc.
I pressed the issue about window perfs on the phone call....against the rules as well. As I mentioned, the rules are about seeing INTO the vehicle, not out. Perfs work against that.
IMHO, these rules where worded to benefit police officers who have to approach vehicles and the safety issues for them and that's understandable and justified.
SCARY THOUGHT OF THE DAY: Think of all the vehicle wraps out there with perf windows incorporated into the designs... All the NASCAR, Ford, Chevy bowties along the top edges of windshields.... Side windows of mini vans and passenger cab pickups that have business lettering... "Calvin" taking a leak on just about everything under the sun...
If the enforcement of these rules become more pronounced (and in this economy, it just might), razor blade sales will increase and a whole lot of auto parts stores and sign makers are going to be the one's who hear the complaints the loudest.
Rapid
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote:IMHO, these rules where worded to benefit police officers who have to approach vehicles and the safety issues for them and that's understandable and justified.
I agree to a point. Our shop used to have a van that had no rear windows, the only way to see was to use the side mirrors. Since that is legal, what difference would it make to police officers if a rear window was covered in lettering of some sort?
I think that there has to be a reasonable balance between officer's safety and property rights and this isn't it. I get real wary when government rationalizes things like this.
.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Police have X-ray vision when it comes to vans, box trucks and other vehicles that have absolutely no rear windows at, but it doesn't work with stickers on glass.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Karyn, to answer your question in regards to who is responsible, if you were unaware of the illegality of the decals I think you can absolve yourself of guilt. We are sign painters and can not be expected, not are we paid to research legal issues. Had you been knowingly doing it without warning the customer I would say then you held responsibility, and now that you do know I would say it is your duty to advise your clients of the ruling. Just my opinion....
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Thats it, Mike! Vinyl must be lined with Lead. It would certainly explain the grey underside of ControlTac.
.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I'd say the customer should eat the cost entirely. Some states have laws against radar detectors. Who's fault is it if they get caught with one of those? But now that you know the law, all you should do is tell the customer it's not legal and if they want it anyway then go ahead and do it.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Ray,
Call DMV back a dozen times, you'll get a different answer every time.
If you have 2 mirrors, you're all set. That's the information that I just extracted from the State of NH Motor Vehicle Inspection manual.
Karen, I would tell this bozo to show you/your customer the law in writing.
Posted by Al Checca (Member # 2216) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kelly Thorson: Karyn, to answer your question in regards to who is responsible, if you were unaware of the illegality of the decals I think you can absolve yourself of guilt. We are sign painters and can not be expected, not are we paid to research legal issues. Had you been knowingly doing it without warning the customer I would say then you held responsibility, and now that you do know I would say it is your duty to advise your clients of the ruling. Just my opinion....
Here in PA years ago window tint was a big issue for the same reasons, police safety. The police would take a key and scratch the tint so you had to remove it. They didn't care who put it on but the end user had to remove it. I agree I would say you can put it on but what happens is on them. Around these parts we have TONS of cars and trucks wrapped.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
well it is in writing...someone just posted it..3217.02. apparently rambo is just doing his "job". however, because it was never enforced previously, i don't believe its all my fault...how am i suppose to know? no one has asked for $ back...but i do have one truck i just did...rear window and his name on the top of the windshield...which i guess is illegal too. oh well i just think it kinda sucks for this cop to be such a pita...especially in these hard economic times. it hurts the person having to take his advertising off...and it will hurt me if i reimburse for half...no one wins. its not like the state gets the $...its federal. i could see if it was a hazard...but its not. live n learn i guess. now i will say...no its illegal...and if they still want it...its their problem.
Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on :
They are illegal here too, and I install them all the time. They don't really enforce it here, unless someone irritates an officer. Then it might get added to the list of charges.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I don't know if they're illegal here or not. For sure, the law's not enforced if they are. Every truck around has some sticker, decal, flag, or racing symbol in the back window, along with the gun rack and toolbox sticking up.
I would imagine, like it or not, the MDOT jerk will tell you, "ignorance of the law is no excuse". I've had dealings with them too, and they're just like any other branch of the govmint...blinders, no flexibility, power-mad, etc. I wouldn't take the blame if a customer came back; you were just doing what they wanted.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Karyn, I think it your responsibility to inform clients from this point on of the law, and do what they want and charge for it. Past is past. Let it go.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I wonder how I could lobby the Alabama government to enforce this rule? I would happily trade NEVER installing another back glass graphic for the glee I would have watching 200,000 rednecks scrape the big white 'A' off their rear windows.....
/Sick and tired of 'ROLL TIDE' //Go Noles!
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Karen, On previous orders or sales, you were unaware of the law and just fulfilling the client's requests. No refund is required or offered because it was the client's responsibility to know the law. Now that you know the law, it's your responsibility to inform the client of the law and let them make a determination. In the grand scheme of things, I feel the law, despite its intended purpose, is selective and unenforceable. New vehicles, such as SUVs, wagons and vans come off the assembly line with dark tinted side and windows. So, what would make these vehicles exempt from the current laws? Or, is it OK for only a select group manufacturers to break laws?
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Dana Stanley (Member # 6786) on :
I used to love NH (Live Free or Die) wasn't that their motto. What is it now (Pay up or Die). Too many Massholes have moved up there and ruined it!
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
yeah but you guys have better marijuana laws than us!
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
I would love to see the knee-jerk legislation that required the writing of that law.
There was probably one or two incidences of somebody taking advantage of dark window coverings to conceal himself as an Officer approached. I suppose that as a law enforcement official, you are more cautious approaching a vehicle that "the occupants can see you, but you can't see them".
But the reality outweighs the fears. The driver, for all intents and purposes, can see the Officer approaching in his mirror, and direct an occupant to shoot as the Officer approaches the side of a totally enclosed van. The Officer can't see if the driver himself has a gun in his LAP - so what next... transparent doors?
If a criminal has intentions to do ill, there is NO amount of vinyl, or lack of same, that will prevent harm to the Officer.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Not illegal in this state, but then in this state all you need to do is pay somebody under the table and then you are legal (hahahahahahah!!!) Seriously it could be illegal and I wouldn't know, but I'll bet the cops don't know either. But all states are strapped for cash and these law enforcement folks are on the prowl to apply any an all laws that might raise some revenue.
I heard once upon a time that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but if that were true, why would it take a lawyer 3 years to get through law school and why would we need a Supreme Court just to interpret the laws.
I wouldn't give customers any money back, maybe scrape it off for them free of charge. I think this is an isolated case and it was the customer's idea to do it, I'm sure. You didn't make them put lettering on the windows did you? So are you supposed to see all and know all. Not in my mind when it comes to some obscure law that nobody in years has ever paid attention to.
It probably should be illegal for all the junk that you see on windows. I followed somebody the other day who had "WANTED" on his rear window. That's a clear indication for the cops to pull him over, but hey, maybe his advanced intelligence allows him to become invisible when need be.
I'm a little disappointed here, though, because I thought you folks had the numero uno state motto -- LIVE FREE OR DIE!
Put that sticker on the back of your pickup window (filling up the whole space of course) and pull into the local police station for a visit and see who comes out to tell you to take it off. Then ask them to find the law in the books and point it out to you. That would be a bunch of fun, it might cause a guy to put down his doughnut for a while. Offer to hold the doughnut of course.
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