I understand what people say when they say you have to charge for your design time. I understand that. If you don't charge your product is worth nothing. But I have to wonder. An artist comes on the board here and says this isn't working, how can I make it work? And everybody chimes in, pipes up and makes the logo/layout work. For nothing. Yes, we must charge customers, for every 2 minutes spent, but yet we are willing to do complete design overhauls on the board here, for nothing. SO..........our time is worth nothing to our friends, some we have never met, some we have met once or twice at a letterhead meet, but our time is worth mega per minute to our customers????? Shouldn't it be the customers we were trying to be nice to? Our customers that pay us our daily bread and butter for work we do for them every day, we should charge to the eyeteeth, but yet we have time to re-do someone else's customer's logo/layout across the country, give them the credit for it, for nothing. And don't give me that's the letterhead spirit stuff. If we can afford to re-do layouts for nothing why aren't we doing it for the people who help us out on a daily basis? Our customers? Just a thought to ponder, not trying to stir the pot. It seems that it only takes a few minutes for these remakes. Artists are looking at it and in a second or two they can say what is wrong with it and how to fix it. Well if we are capable of doing that, and we can do it in a few minutes, would it not be a little more financially advisable to do it for the people we rely on? Our customers? And don't you think they would appreciate it and return to us over and over because of it? As I say, just a thought. I have the feeling I am going to have to go for Chinese tonight. Ducking for cover here. Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Deri, I am going to jump in here ahead of the mob and say that I'm with ya 100%...
/hmmmm... do I smell tar? //that's strange, I just saw a goose with no feathers.... ///RUN!
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Had a letterhead epiphany did you? Heck, if your nice enough some will make you a sign to hang on your wall.
Sometimes I do design on spec based on who it is or just because I believe I can seal the deal with my design. I just don't complain later if it doesn't work out.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
A very thought provoking post. One that took guts to submit! My guess is you aren't going to catch any flack over this at all Posted by Nevman (Member # 332) on :
The way I look at that is that there is an inherent monetary value of to layouts sent to clients as opposed to the inherent knowledge value that we share as Letterheads.
Sure, they both offer obvious advantages for increasing profits of either the client or 'head'. That being said, I believe that, in sharing our experience and insight to others here, we ALL benefit from seeing things from a different point of view. It is not just the original poster who benefits from re-works of layouts; it is the community as a whole that get to see different 'takes' on how a layout, color use or copy emphasis may enhance future work for not just themselves but also current and future clients.
I enjoy and appreciate seeing different designs for the same signs and I don't mind taking 10 or 15 minutes to re-work one once in a while.
quote:And don't give me that's the letterhead spirit stuff
Sorry...
Not a slam...just my take on it...
Posted by Cody Reich (Member # 8052) on :
Deleted...
[ October 14, 2008, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Cody Reich ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
To me the difference would be that as an industry we have to be sure our work is valued. If we don't charge for our design work it tells our customer that that work has no value. So in that matter it devalues our time and efforts in the public eye. I think that it is the desire to protect the value of that which brings that critique to the board so often. Posting something here for comments or critiques often brings a flurry of original designs. I think they are done in an effort to hopefully show a different light on the situation or illustrate a point, and often I believe there is a bit of friendly competition involved. I guess it is no differeent that typing out a long answer to a post, for the most part those designs are meant as a sharing and teaching tool. I do feel that those posts would be much more benificial if they worked on the original layout and made changes with explanations as to why they were done. When you are struggling with something and someone just puts something entirely different on the post it feels like it discounts what you have done as not worthy of further consideration, which may be the case, but we all have to work within the parameters of our capabilities. That can be very discouraging. Did I just earn myself a chair in Foo Yoos too? Bring on the ginger beef.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
You'll notice Deri that I've never participated in that. If a Letterhead friend asked me to do something, I would but just to volunteer and throw something into the pot, along with everyone else - not me. And as George posted: "took guts!"
Posted by Don Hulsey (Member # 128) on :
I think you have a very good question as well, but I also think I have a pretty good answer.
We DO get paid for what we post on this board. I, for one, have earned more than I have contributed at this point. For every time someone spends a little time answering a question or redrawing a logo, there is also a time they receive some information, instruction, or a logo redrawn.
That being said, I DO redraw or redesign for some customers for free sometimes, but I always give them a dollar figure that it should have cost. That way they realize they are actually receiving something of value, which also lets them know that you apprecite them.
Hope part of that made sense.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Deri, like Ricky, I don't get into the online design overhauls very often if at all but as far as changes for a customer layout, you bet I'll do revisions at no additional cost. Of course I set a budget and limits to what I'll do within that budget, and anything else beyond that needs to be charged extra. If I've actually listened to the customer and they made their desires clear, it never goes beyond one or two minor revisions. Often I get lucky and they're happy with it on the first shot.
You may also notice it's only a small handful of people that actually participate in the re-designs here on a regular basis. You can probably name them all off the top of your head and you probably wouldn't need all ten fingers to count them.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Even though I don't venture out into the re-design posts very often, I do enjoy seeing other peoples ideas on a design, so I don't want to disparage or discourage that for those who enjoy it...
To me the question is how quite a few can say "We're not changing a font/layout without getting that $50-80 design fee" and "I'm not spending 10 minutes designing a sign for a good prospective customer unless I have the deposit in hand" yet you see 30 minute re-designs on here for free.
Also these same people say they won't change a design without money (they value their time too much) but can spend 30 minutes on the forum here banging out a defense for that position, discussing world events, or posting a 4 paragraph rebuttal to one of Old Paint's ideas....
I totally understand not giving away our work for free, but I don't quite get the "You're not getting a suggestion from me until you hand over some cash" mentality. I like making money as much as the next guy, but I've developed some very loyal and valuable sign customers by going the extra mile.
I could also be swayed a little by the fact that I also work in my father's successful construction company (been in business since before I was born) where we may spend $5,000 in design time and engineering, just to be able to bid on a job that we may or may not get... There is no way around it, but the jobs we get more than pay for the ones we miss, however. Also, I'll mention that at least 50% of our new jobs come from happy customer's referrals.
/that tar smell //it's getting stronger..... ///OWWWW...
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
quote: The way I look at that is that there is an inherent monetary value of to layouts sent to clients as opposed to the inherent knowledge value that we share as Letterheads.
Good take Nevman.
I do apologize to all that have asked for advice and I have not responded with a layout. I have always thought "try this" but never actually took the time to bring it into software and do the work. I have always thought "Crap I wish I had the time." for those who do take the time. I wish I were more like you. (I have this lazy streak that gets in the way of a lot of things I would like to accomplish,) But I do come back to the post again and see what others have said and done. And more often than not someone does suggest exactly what I had thought. Thanks folks for not throwing things. Well, yet anyway. Maybe I shouldn't speak too soon. Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Anytime I try to "wow" a customer with a design they invariably choose something their wife doodled up in Word. And they won't budge. I'd rather help my peers. I learn from helping them. But nobody ever takes my advice anyway. Sorta like customers. I have more fun designing on the BB, that's why I do it. It doesn't seem like work as much as re-submitting something to a client in red rather than blue, with something rotated 10°, then back again, then in Brush Script, then in Algerian. Then back to the original, but in green. Love....Jill
Posted by Gregg Parkes (Member # 7710) on :
Hi Deri, very interesting point. The only thing I can add is this:
I believe it's a perceived worth... let me give an example. If I were to ask a "mate" to comeover to my place, work his backside off building a retaining wall from 7 in the morning until 6 at night for $50... chances are he would be insulted and feel "ripped off" for paying so little for so much work and time. However, if I said to come over and work his backside off from 7 in the morning until 6 at night and i'll grab a carton of beer and have a BBQ afterwards... chances are he'll feel gratefully rewarded for his efforts. But the $$$ value on my behalf is EXACTLY the same. One way it's an insult the other a time sharing, friendship building experience - something that can be looked back upon as giving to each other.
I think it is human nature, and no matter how many posts or how many responses over how many years will change this.
Quid pro quo...people DO like to give, no matter what their design fees are. Those that charge for design time will often give their time freely at the local school or church and think nothing of it. I often mow my neighbours lawns the day before they get back from vacation... just so they don't have to do it. If they asked me for a sign that would take all of 5 mins - forget it!!!
See where I am coming from and the weird but very wonderful way the mind works???
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Deri, To expand on what Gregg and others mentioned, we are sharing our expertise and knowledge with our friends, peers and others who understand, value and appreciate our efforts. This can't always be said about the clients we work with. In addition, I'll try to participate, when I have something to offer, for the same reasons as Jill stated. Other times, because it's a much needed break from whatever I'm doing at the moment.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I've kind'a wondered along those lines too Deri . . .
but upon study, I've noticed most of the layouts worked on here, the person who makes the query for input has already sumbited some sort of layout and it's 'built on, and added to by others.
The rare occasion when they have nothing, it's obvious they need a hand to get them 'thinking' of the possibilites. And, even the best of 'heads' get 'layout' block from time to time.
Ya know, it kind of reminds me of law students who take on a case - one alone could go nuts trying to sift thru the possibilities, but several together have valid input which contributes to building a 'case'.
'Playing' with layouts in creative ways with others is not a totally unselfish act, because anytime someone does that, they are learning and exercising their creativity too.
Well, there's another analogy. Think of this place as a creativity gym, and sometimes you 'spot' someone in their workout.
Hopefully, no one does it for an 'ego' rush. (It seems like, as far as I can tell, no one takes advantage of this either like bringing every job they get for ideas or something)
Gee, Deri, ain'cha ever heard: "Two 'heads are better than one"
[ October 16, 2008, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
I've always looked at the layouts people do as a community thing. Bouncing ideas off one another. it's not like someone's going to say, Hey, Deri, that layout you did for my customer....can you just make the "M" a little bigger and make the outline black instead of green, then add a shadow under the circle etc. etc. Then after all that, want to change the font like a customer would. It's something to help us all get our creative juices flowing. I don't add to them only because I don't think my layout concepts are solid enough to present to people who have had many years studying design and color concepts. I think it's part of the letterhead way of sharing Ideas, but then again, it's fine if someone doesn't want to do it for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with that.
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Too come out and ask for your Ideas on Design with out submitting something first is a little off, but if you have the time and love designing then I think there's nothing wrong with it at all. If you come on here and ask all the time for help, then that may be a little over the top. But one time or even a scattered one every now and then is'nt so bad. But I see where you're coming from Deri, it really makes an interesting disscussion.
Posted by Donald Miner (Member # 6472) on :
I don't like to give a final price until the design is OK with the client. On the rare occasion that I do give a price, it is with the understanding that there will be a charge for any changes. If someone goes to a commercial design firm, they are charged for every thing done from start to finish. Just a simple font change is one thing, a complete re-design is a whole different ball of wax. Just my 2 pennies.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I am one of those who take people to task for giving away their work. Usually it is in response to people who come here with the same complaint over and over - how they did a design and the customer stole it or gave it to another shop, and it's always defended as "if I charge for the design they'd go elsewhere" - as if they have some magic power to read every customer's mind.
That said, I think Pat Neve said it best. Designs shared here are for all of us to learn from. It would be quite different if we were offering design makeovers to each other without they're being seen and commented upon by other designers.
I personally don't take part in these redesign excercises, not because I have any objection to them. I also don't offer designs here to be critiqued - my feeling is that a client is getting MY ideas, not someone elses. But to compare design sharing in this forum, to giving away work to customers, I do not think is a fair comparison.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
And don't give me that's the letterhead spirit stuff. If we can afford to re-do layouts for nothing why aren't we doing it for the people who help us out on a daily basis? Our customers? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)